Shinji needs to grow something, does he?

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Postby StratoSakuya...AF » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:00 pm

View Original PostNa7e wrote:Yes, because in NME people are so horrible to him. Misato lets him live in her house. Rei was throwing a party for him. Asuka was cooking so he wouldn't have to shoulder the load on himself. Toji & Kensuke drag him outside so he can actually have a social life. And, Kaji actually gives him some pretty good advice. There all such dicks to him amirite?


Gendo making him near-kill Asuka, Asuka herself being somewhat a brat, Touji beating Shinji. Misa and Ritsu insisting he pilot the EVA just out of the blue. Rei's slap. If there's been one person 100% good to Shinji, it's Mari. She's the only person who actually told him to run away from that land with no future, was nice to him, and could probably be what allowed Shinji to take the "Idealistic" route in EVA that was locked for 15 years. One can't deny that it's Shinji's "f**k you" that kept EVA from falling in the same pit where the original was.
SO THERE I WAS BEING KUBO, WHEN THE EDITORS CAME IN AND WERE LIKE "YOU NEED TO DO MORE THAN PANELS OF WHITE PILLARS AND BLACKGROUNDS!" AND I WAS LIKE "FUCK YOU, I'M KUBO!" SO THEY WERE LIKE "WELL HOW ABOUT SOMEBODY DYING?" AND I WAS LIKE "FUCK YOU, I'M KUBO!" AND I MADE LOTS AND LOTS OF MONEY. I LOVE MY LIFE.

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:02 pm

Not much of a pit by my reckoning.
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Postby CJD » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:18 pm

View Original PostStratoSakuya...AF wrote:If there's been one person 100% good to Shinji, it's Mari.


I believe you're forgetting one swag ass motherfucker.

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Postby bobbyfischer's ghost » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:24 pm

View Original PostStratoSakuya...AF wrote: that kept EVA from falling in the same pit where the original was.

What pit?
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Postby Tribblepoo » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:49 pm

View Original Postbobbyfischer's ghost wrote:What pit?

The pit of self-loathing, despair and psychobabble.
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Postby bobbyfischer's ghost » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:58 pm

^That's hardly a pit.
what Rei and Asuka went through was must worse. IMO
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Postby StratoSakuya...AF » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:13 pm

View Original Postbobbyfischer's ghost wrote:^That's hardly a pit.
what Rei and Asuka went through was must worse. IMO


I can (not) disagree.

Oh, I forgot Kaji! He's been an actual father figure to Shinji.
SO THERE I WAS BEING KUBO, WHEN THE EDITORS CAME IN AND WERE LIKE "YOU NEED TO DO MORE THAN PANELS OF WHITE PILLARS AND BLACKGROUNDS!" AND I WAS LIKE "FUCK YOU, I'M KUBO!" SO THEY WERE LIKE "WELL HOW ABOUT SOMEBODY DYING?" AND I WAS LIKE "FUCK YOU, I'M KUBO!" AND I MADE LOTS AND LOTS OF MONEY. I LOVE MY LIFE.

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Postby CyberXIII » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:34 pm

Oh boy, where to begin....

First of all, let me first point out that the hatred Shinji gets in the West is a combination of multiple factors involving the definition of a hero. Contrary to popular belief not every hero (action, super or otherwise) in the 90s was a muscle-bound gun-toting cigar smoking badass that always got the girl, beat the villain, saved the world, etc. Spider-Man was probably at his lowest point in decades around that time period but he was and still is one of Marvel's flagship characters. Despite that no one in their right minds would ever want the horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE life he has to lead. The guilt issues, the constant fear for his loved ones, the poverty, the hatred he has done nothing to earn the evil writers trying to bury him at every turn....it's a nightmare. Spider-Man's actually a lot like Shinji and yet he's much, much more popular than Shinji could ever hope to be. Why? Because he's a true hero that gives us something to aspire to.

Shinji isn't a hero, he's a (pardon the trope-speak here, but hopefully I'll get my meaning across) Type I Anti-Hero, also known as the loser protagonist. Despite all he does he really doesn't accomplish much in the grand scheme of things. He's a pawn with daddy issues up the wazoo and a boatload of mental problems. And no, I don't say he needs to suck it up or grow a spine/pair/what have you. I'm saying that people in the West general have a low tolerance for angst, especially when it doesn't lead to character development. And as much as I like and sympathize with him and his problems I'll be the first to admit he's a failure of a protagonist, in that he really doesn't amount to much in the beginning or the End.

He winds up developing as you'd expect over the first arc, but after the mess with Armisael and what happened with Rei and Kaworu he just falls apart. While sad as all hell, this is not heroic, not in the modern sense of the world. That gives people nothing to aspire to, nothing to respect, nothing to use as a role model to better themselves. And yes, in that situation most everyone would probably have killed themselves much earlier, but that's my point. Characters like Spider-Man, Superman, Sonic the Hedgehog or Optimus Prime or real life heroes like Martin Luther King or the man who landed that plane in the river in New York and saved all those people show a better side of humanity. They give us something to look up to, to showus that maybe, just maybe we can be a better person than we were yesterday. Shinji doesn't do that in the original series, he just does what people tell him and generally acts like a self-hating coward.

Notice I say "acts like", not is. Shinji, for all his faults is much better than he thinks he is, which leads to another point of contention among Westerners; his so called "wimpiness" or as Reichu so rightly brought up, his lack of a "spine" or "balls". Being an American male with more than my fair share of mental issues, I've been told these phrases or other permutations thereof, which has given me ample time to think about them and what they really represent. George Carlin would attribute these to simple male insecurities and outdated principles that should've been thrown out with the Stone Age, but I'm not so sure. As awful as it sounds, phrases like that need to be thrown around on occasion to keep people from getting complacent or falling into the trap of "political correctness gone rampant". Trying to please everyone is a fool's idea to begin with.....but I digress. The reason those phrases and ideas of "manliness" or badassitude is that it's an ideal to live up to. I'm not saying that women can't be badasses or action heroes (history's pretty much proven that they can) it's that men have always been pretty much expected to. If you do anything outside of a certain narrow range of actions, including showing emotions (especially sadness) or loving someone you're not biologically designed for or what have you, you're not "manly" and therefore must be shunned. It's a self-perpetuating problem and part of it is the fault of past generations of men, but it's our job, no matter what culture you head to, especially in Japan. Hell, Misato's probably the biggest badass in the show that doesn't get in a Eva, and what does she tell Shinji in EOE?

"Act like a man!"

Obviously she's not sexist, nor is she cruel. So why is she saying that? Is it for Shinji to live up to some outdated ideal of manhood? Of course not, she's trying her damnedest to get him to stop feeling sorry for himself (as she sees it; we know better), climb out of that shell he's in and keep those soldiers from butchering them all. I think our illustrious OP may have been reading into the phrases a mite too literally. It's not so much that people think Shinji is worthless from the get-go; if he was he wouldn't have climbed into Eva-01 at all and just let Rei do it. The real problem is that he shows signs of developing the way Spider-Man did: from a wussy, pathetic boy picked on by everyone to a man that, for all his faults, failures, and screwups gives us something to look up to. After that laughably clumsy, starkly realistic first sortie, Shinji does end up doing pretty well for himself as a pilot; trouble is the job is so demanding and traumatic that, much like Peter, he'd like nothing more than to hand it over to someone else. Fans and non-fans can empathize with that; how many of us work shit jobs we'd love to be rid of? Shinji's crowning moment was the battle with Zeruel, and despite how it ended it left many people hoping he'd turn out like Spidey: a flawed hero with a truckload of mental problems that can still save the world and give the viewers someone to look up to.

I said before that Spider-Man is much more beloved than Shinji could ever hope to be, despite the tights, the angst, clones and deals with the devil. The reason why is, again, Spidey gives us something to hope for and aspire to, unlike Shinji who's a mess from beginning to end. Spider-Man is relatable, yes; he has issues that we all have to deal with such as money, love, and they occasional person trying to kill him for one reason or another. Shinji has slightly more mundane issues of being an awkward teen in a setting that he really has no place in, but we've all had to be there in one fashion or another. It's not the lack of wish fulfillment either. Shinji already does live a life that most people would kill to have: piloting a giant robot and saving the planet while living with two beautiful women who clearly have romantic interests in him. That's most nerds' wet dream, right there. And yet everyone ignores that in favor of EoE's shattered mess of a character. Spider-Man has a similar problem:right up until a certain event he was living in the Avengers Mansion, happily married, and had done things that most men/women only dream about with his powers.

TL;DR: Shinji is hated because he is not a hero; he does not overcome his mental problems, he succumbs to them. It's not a lack of manliness, it's a lack of heroism that most people really take for granted in stories like this. He's a failure, a loser, and nothing that anyone really wants to be like. Compared to other typical shounen heroes like Naruto or Ichigo or Goku or so on he does nothing outstanding. He mindlessly does as he's told (in a way he's more of a puppet than Rei - she at least knows what he role in the story is), he caves to everyone, he's hopelessly awkward and more than a little crazy. And no one wants to watch or be anything like that.

Because when you get right down to it don't we all have enough mental issues in our
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Postby Dream » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:43 pm

I don't know if this can contribute to the thread, but i definitively look up to and admire Shinji. Way more than the other heroes you mentioned, actually, i think he's a greater person/hero than i could ever hope to be. I think one of the main reasons for why i think he's even more of a hero than the other examples you gave (Ichigo, Naruto, Goku, etc.) Is because to me he's much more detailed and truly human, with human problems, than those other heroes, he's brave even when he's so flawed and weak. Another factor i think, is that i think he did end up affecting the greater scheme of things in both endings. And by the way, i honestly can't agree with the idea that we still need throw around phrases like "grow a spine" to avoid some trap of complacency, i think we would be better without those kind of phrases.

He might not have been Quijote, but i think above all of his self-loathing and insecurity and other flaws, he had good intentions, and he acted on them as best as he could. Not to be rude but i think you're only seeing the negatives in Shinji, he has a lot of them sure, but he also has a lot of good points. And i never envied Shinji's life situation, at least not in the "you get to pilot a giant robot, defend humanity and live with two attractive women" sense. To be honest i can't see why anyone would.
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Postby Der Kommissar » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:39 pm

It's a bit of a dummy prize, anyway. If you're Shinji, the giant robot is actually a monster that transmits its unspeakable pain to you as you fight desperately for your life, occasionally wounding random civilians in the process. And as for the two attractive girls, one gives off a familial vibe you can't place and has a relationship with your estranged father that you don't understand, while the other is as fucked up as you - terrified of and in desperate need of emotional intimacy.

I think why people don't "get" Shinji (if one can be pardoned using such an arrogant phrase) is that the series goes to pains to use the stereotypical tropes of big action mecha heroics early on. You've got an everyman growing into his role. You've got a distant but perhaps reachable parent. You've got a budding romcom scenario. You've got the protag starting to grow and improve. Then the series stomps the fuck over all of that, starting from maybe the failed kiss onward. Over half of the series seems to encourage certain cliched expectations in the viewer. It's not surprising some viewers might be annoyed and confused at how Shinji "fucks it up" rather than thinking about why he does.

Shinji's certainly a hero. A tragic hero whose biggest weakness is his inability to meaningfully connect to others - the whole 'hedgehog's dilemma.' Shinji overcomes his own personal demons and mortal peril time and time again for people he suspects (correctly) are just using him for a world he doesn't feel connected to. And while he does choke at the end, it's under circumstances that are understandable, considering what's happened for him recently. Even then, he manages to overcome his own self-loathing, humiliation, and fear to pull the POTENTIAL for a happy ending out of the fucking mess he played a fairly small part in making.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:47 am

@CyberXIII (Spidey vs Shinji)
I always (and we're talking back to the very beginning back in the '60s here) felt that Spidey was a tedious tosser, for all his "Great power, great responsibility" line, but that -- EoE aside -- Shinji was a harmless but well meaning nebbish, just way out of his depth.

He wasn't completely supine -- just that when he did choose to be assertive (or at least passive-aggressive), it was so misjudged as to be well out of order like in showing dumb insolence in episode 4 and then insubordinately charging ahead in 16.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:50 am

It's worth reiterating that he isn't hated in Japan like he is in America, and that this likely has as much to do with his VAs as it does anything else. In Japan he's probably a fair bit more popular than Spidey is here.
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SPIDERINJIANA! BD

Postby Alaska Slim » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:43 am

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:Contrary to popular belief not every hero (action, super or otherwise) in the 90s was a muscle-bound gun-toting cigar smoking badass that always got the girl

Wasn't that the 80's? I thought the 90's was filled with endearing slackers who snarked a lot, and, once given power, acted like complete magnificent bastard-geeks or had to grow to appreciate the responsibility.

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:Spider-Man's actually a lot like Shinji and yet he's much, much more popular than Shinji could ever hope to be. Why?

Because he's quick with the one-liners.

Indeed, that is something to aspire to, I agree. :thumbsup:

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:...he just falls apart. While sad as all hell, this is not heroic, not in the modern sense of the world.

Nor in the "ancient" sense of the word, even his homo-erotic tendencies aren't quite right.

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:I said before that Spider-Man is much more beloved than Shinji could ever hope to be, despite the tights, the angst, clones and deals with the devil.

The traveling to another planet, the identity crisis, the crazed community college professor who pulls cloning vats straight out of his ass, etc.

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:TL;DR: Shinji is hated because he is not a hero; he does not overcome his mental problems, he succumbs to them.


"Sometimes the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others."

Case in point. Full film here.

And like I said, in the original ending the guy made it to camp. But Jack London felt that didn't do enough to sell the point.


Bagheera wrote:In Japan he's probably a fair bit more popular than Spidey is here.

Perhaps, but I don't see a Frenchmen dressing up in his likeness to climb buildings.

... In retrospect, maybe that's a good thing.
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Postby NemZ » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:29 am

I continue to believe that Shinji in the series is a well intentioned kid doing the best he can in a untenable situation with woefully lacking support and information. He's A-okay with me, flaws and all.

EoE Shinji however is a worthless piece of shit who does just about everything possible to make sure everyone he cares about dies for nothing. Seriously, fuck that guy.
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Postby CyberXIII » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:43 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's worth reiterating that he isn't hated in Japan like he is in America, and that this likely has as much to do with his VAs as it does anything else. In Japan he's probably a fair bit more popular than Spidey is here.


I'd have said that earlier, but I've mentioned I hate Spike Spencer so often that by now it would be beating a dead horse. Also I can't really speak on the popularity debate any further without any numbers in front of me, so I'll leave that alone.


Alaska Slim wrote:Wasn't that the 80's? I thought the 90's was filled with endearing slackers who snarked a lot, and, once given power, acted like complete magnificent bastard-geeks or had to grow to appreciate the responsibility.


There's a reference I'm not getting in there, but I said the 90's because that's when Eva was first produced and made millions, and when people were first introduced to Shinji.

And Shinji most certainly is not a hero. The story doesn't have clear-cut heroes and villains; there's far too much moral ambiguity here, more's the pity. Of course, there are at least two guys that are pretty obviously evil.....but no real heroes. Just a bunch of Anti-heroes at best.

And Slim I already made the clone saga reference. You ever notice that the guy that delivers a warning of this nature really ain't all that popular?

@NemZ
Finally, something we agree on. I'd love to know who lied to Anno and told him 70% of EoE was a good idea.....


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YUKON-MAN, does everything half as well until he's dead. B/

Postby Alaska Slim » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:03 pm

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:And Shinji most certainly is not a hero.

Nor is bearded Yukon-man.

"Warning" as in "What not to do."

Jack London re-wrote his story and allowed the worst to occur in order to better emphasize the point (USE THE DAMN BUDDY SYSTEM!).

Having the man end up at the camp, losing a few toes and saying "Oh, I learned a very important lesson." he felt wasn't enough.

SPOILER: Show
So he killed him off after a long; drawn out struggle.


View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:And Slim I already made the clone saga reference.

You just said clones and Angst, you didn't say anything about him. And let's be honest, the guy deserves special notice.
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Postby Der Kommissar » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:40 pm

While I'd certainly stubbornly debate the "is Shinji a hero?" point, I find amusement in that

(USE THE DAMN BUDDY SYSTEM!)


would have solved a lot of problems in Eva, too...

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Re: SPIDERINJIANA! BD

Postby Bagheera » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:16 am

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:Wasn't that the 80's?


No, 90s. Very much 90s. See Rob Liedeld, Image Comics, et al. One might argue that it started with The Dark Knight Returns in '86, and with Liefeld's run on X-Force soon after, but the 90s was the heart of the Iron Age in comics.

The whole slacker hero thing came later, after the Image business fizzled. Still 90s, but later.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby CyberXIII » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:51 am

@Bagheera
This, very much this. Which led to the creation of Deadpool, Cable, Onslaught and a few other girls and guys I liked but no one else did.....at the time.

Meanwhile, moving back to the Reichu's idea....I don't know, telling someone to grow some ovaries just doesn't have the same ring to it. And spines are unisex, no getting around that one.
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."

I am ask-shinji-ikari on tumblr.com. Feel free to ask me questions!

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LAND! BD

Postby Alaska Slim » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:13 am

He could always buy huge tracts of lands... but it has to be real, none of that Cape Canaveral stuff.
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"It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

"God is in his Heaven, and free men walk upon the Earth" - Rev. Robert Sirico, President of the Acton Institute


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