Villians in Eva Fanfics?

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:36 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:*sigh* This entire "evil Yui" shit needs to die, it has nothing to do with how this character is presented in this show and the things the author has her say. (He mostly has her as a mouthpiece for his own beliefs... no, not villain material.)


Not really true. Consider:

-- Yui went through with the CE without telling Gendo about her plans, knowing this would devastate him.
-- Yui brought Shinji to watch the CE, knowing full well that she would die. She also knew this would leave Shinji stuck with Gendo, and she had to have some idea as to how that would work out.
-- Yui, in Unit 01, sat idly by as Unit 02 was torn to pieces. She only activated after that unit, bearing the soul of Kyoko Soryu, and its pilot were destroyed. We can speculate about the reasons behind it but the timing is damning (heck, even Reichu admits this and she's a stronger Yui advocate than most anyone).
-- Yui left her son to an extremely uncertain future on Earth while she went gallivanting around the galaxy.

These actions are extremely callous, rivaling the worst that Seele or Gendo ever managed to accomplish. Further, if we take her at her word she is essentially subverting Seele's plans so that she can become a monument to humanity. That's it! That's her plan, full stop. She abandoned her husband, traumatized her son, ignored the suffering of others, and stole the power of a seed of life so that she could become a freakin' statue. There is a ton of villain potential there. Fuyutsuki's rose-colored vision of her doesn't change that in the slightest.
Last edited by Bagheera on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Dream » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:44 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:We don't really know anything about Yui. Everything we see of her is fragmented, dreamlike, and through the eyes of men obsessed with her.

I don't understand why it's considered axiomatic that in a series that's all about trying to shock the viewer out of their shell and get over clinging to childhood/their mommy, Shinji's mother must be some kind of saint. She doesn't need to be evil, but there's nothing in Eva's themes or text to suggest that she can't be, and a great deal to suggest that she is, at the very least, behind everything in a master-mindey kind of way.


Hmm, that's a good point you have there, probably nothing we see of her in the series outside of EoE is Yui directly speaking, but her being remembered by men who, uh, deeply loved her.

However, i admit i don't see what Yui's being Shinji's mother had to do with that, i guess it's an intentional coincidence on the part of Anno that the main character's mother is also one of the kindest and most hopeful characters in the series, but that's never really how i viewed Yui (as in, i never thought that "Shinji's mother should be some sort of saint" and i have a hunch that Shinji himself wouldn't be so sure of that). And while certainly there's nothing in the series that indicates she can't be (hell, could anyone even fit such criteria?) It is not exactly the most natural interpretation, i think.

But yeah, she does have that slightly creepy "I know everything" vibe to her.

The point of making an established character a villain in a fanfic (as far as I see it) is to not change the character, but show how the character's traits drove them to develop in another direction. Kendrix mentioned something about shoehorning Misato into the role of a villain. Well...she's obsessive with the concept of destroying the Angels no matter the cost (which put serious blinders on her to things going wrong until it was too late), it's clear from some of her interactions with the children that she can be exceedingly impatient (which in turn seemed to drive her to taking increasingly drastic measures as the series progressed), and her desire to keep people to arm's length to a degree (and the devestation she felt when Kaji was killed) demonstrate someone who is easily hurt or pummeled by those around her.


It's a good theory, but i have to be honest and say that as i was reading it, the words "Cherry-picking", "Out of character" and "Flanderization" popped into my head from time to time, it honestly seems in here that you're taking certain aspects of the characters and also choosing how to interpret them, which while not wrong and certainly fun, it feels like a... Incomplete, i guess? portrayal of the character. And i think that's what Kendrix addresed in her post among other things, if you're willing to twist things to such a degree, you can make anyone into what you want to.

Also, i'm not so sure about the idea that we can turn any character into a hero or villain, at least not while including and accounting for all the aspects of his or her character.

I keep saying that the best villains are the ones who do not see themselves as villains, and are in fact sympathetic to a larger or lesser extent. A villain that forces the audience to question whether or not what they do is wrong (and therefore view their own values) is a good character, a good driver of plot, and a good medium for sharing the author's ideas and directions of story.


Just wanted to say that i highly agree with this, and these tend to often be my favorite kind of villain.

Also, Chuckman hit the nail on the head: the only things we know about Yui are from unreliable narrators. It's not to say she was evil, just that we can't assume she was a perfect human. Which leaves a lot of ground for fan fic writers.


It's probably worth noting though that, at least in EoE and maybe episode 16, we heard the dialogue from the woman herself, and it fits almost perfectly with the rest of what we've seen. Plus, you know, dialogue with the woman herself.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:48 pm

View Original PostDream wrote:It's probably worth noting though that, at least in EoE and maybe episode 16, we heard the dialogue from the woman herself, and it fits almost perfectly with the rest of what we've seen. Plus, you know, dialogue with the woman herself.


21, not 16. And that dialogue doesn't exactly strengthen the case for her advocates; what we hear in EoE is downright daft.

There are other threads that might be more appropriate for this discussion, though.
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Postby Dream » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:57 pm

I meant the Leliel episode, not "Form of mind, form of man". But i honestly don't see what's so daft about what she says in EoE. By the way,

-- Yui brought Shinji to watch the CE, knowing full well that she would die. She also knew this would leave Shinji stuck with Gendo, and she had to have some idea as to how that would work out.


Considering that Yui seems to have a very deep love and high regard for humanity, and always seems to look for the best in every person, i don't think it's too impossible that she over-estimated Gendo. And hell, considering Fuyutsuki and Naoko's reactions, it seems like no one could have predicted he would have gone so strongly off the deep end. It's obvious to us because we're first introduced to the broken, battle-hardened Gendo, but if we knew him as the "troubled, but cute" youngster he apparently was, we might have been more shocked.

And i simply can't buy the idea that she did everything she did just to be a statue, presumably the idea that she is doing this to protect humanity is so obvious no one really bothers to mention it.

However, there's no arguing with the fact she abandoned her family twice.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:19 pm

View Original PostDream wrote:And i simply can't buy the idea that she did everything she did just to be a statue, presumably the idea that she is doing this to protect humanity is so obvious no one really bothers to mention it.


That's a pretty big assumption. Her statements on the matter in the flashback in EoE are not at all ambiguous. You're not alone in thinking there must be more, though; Reichu has argued that her actions only make sense if she intends to become a seed and carry on their work, and it's a fair assumption -- I can't for the life of my see why Lilith would give her power to Yui if Yui didn't plan on doing Lilith's work. But it's all fanwank.

However, there's no arguing with the fact she abandoned her family twice.


Yeah. That alone is pretty solid villain material, no matter her motives.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:34 pm

View Original PostDream wrote:It's a good theory, but i have to be honest and say that as i was reading it, the words "Cherry-picking", "Out of character" and "Flanderization" popped into my head from time to time, it honestly seems in here that you're taking certain aspects of the characters and also choosing how to interpret them, which while not wrong and certainly fun, it feels like a... Incomplete, i guess? portrayal of the character.


It can become Flanderization if handled improperly: I don't disagree with that. If you turn a character into some sort of evil caricature of themselves simply because of a few traits, that's certainly a poor handling of the character. The thing is, as I said before...a villain does not have to be evil. You could write a character like that, using those traits, in a manner as one would write for the protagonist, while it is still evident to other characters in the story or the readers that the villain is, in fact, a villain. That's not cherry-picking...that's using a pre-established character, and their pre-established traits, and utilizing key stressors to push them in a different direction. Basically, a butterfly effect.

Using Misato as an example (and thought experiment), think of the ways she COULD have become a villain in the Evangelion series, without any significant deviations from her character. Several times, she had to justify to herself why she was putting children in danger. It was clear that she didn't buy her own arguments, but it was also clear she was willing to go to great lengths to do just that (use children as weapons) because she felt that there was no alternative. We see her as heroic because we know why she did what she did, and what factors in her life made her the woman she was. But without knowing any of that, or even just seeing her from a single character's perspective, she can come off as downright sinister at times, almost like a Captain Ahab to the Angel's Moby Dick.

Does simply feeling bad about doing a rotten thing absolve a character of being a villain? It could; but it could also show how tragic or twisted the villain is. 'I am a good person who has to do a horrible thing to better the world.' To me, that's not Flanderization; you could change the character's core, but why do that when you can simply put the character on the other side of the line exactly as they are (I would use Shinji from the Rebuild series as an example...we see him as the protagonist, but how many people see him as extinction embodied).

As for Yui's goals (which should go in another post...I'll start one up in the Eva discussions board for that, but you would think there'd already be one?), we really have no clue as to what she wants to do. We know she assumed Third Impact happen, and that it would be a disaster, but we never know why she thinks this. It's easy to project our own desires onto her (TI is bad because it is the extinction of all life), when we really don't know what her own desires are (TI is bad because either Seele or the Angels will direct it, and it will happen incorrectly).

I wouldn't say protecting humanity is in it (at least, not protecting humanity in the traditional sense). The conversation between Yui and Fuyutsuki is quite frank about the eventual fate of the human race: whether from Third Impact or time itself, humans would vanish. Yui made it clear that she saw the Evangelion as proof humanity existed, and not necessarily a way of 'saving' humanity. The implication is that humanity was beyond saving, or could no longer be saved: Evangelion was simply there to prove there was a thing called humans.

This'll be the last thing I say about Yui on this thread (I really want to keep talking about this, though :tongue: ). I'm gonna check to see if there's not already a thread covering it, and if there isn't, I'll start one up in the Eva Discussions page.
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Postby driftking18594 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:08 pm

View Original PostClover wrote:"i don't really care for plot" - Dream, 2013.
What you could do with Yui is force her out of Unit 01 and see how she reacts to a complete destruction of her loooooong-term plan. She wouldn't be a villain per se, but I think her actions would get pretty drastic and endanger everyone.


I think there's a link to a fanfic in this sub-forum where Shinji interrupts Yui's contact experiment, and she goes batshit insane.

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Postby Clover » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:10 pm

race war
Last edited by Clover on Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby amitakartok » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:24 pm

The Adeptus Evangelion rulebooks include supplements for three factions, any of which can serve as antagonists. For your consideration...

  • The Eigenart Initiative, a SEELE splinter group that want to turn every single human into Tabrises by giving them full control over their own AT-fields. The result would be a race capable of autoevolution and combining the power of the Angels with the wisdom of the human mind. After getting all the recent data on the Angels and a sample of Lilith or Adam, they could "upgrade" everyone individually or hijack Third Impact to "upgrade" everyone at once. Naturally, SEELE is hunting them like crazy for trying to do the exact opposite of Instrumentality.
  • A group known only as Charon who want to hijack Third Impact and pull off a modified Instrumentality that only claims the souls of the dead, functioning as an afterlife. In order to create that afterlife however, they need an "initial payment" consisting of several million human souls including that of an Eva pilot, everyone of whom would be permanently destroyed in the process.
  • The Societas Eruditorum who are simply going for world domination, aiming to create a world governed by scientists and scholars monopolizing Evangelion technology. And they have infiltrators in even more places than SEELE, including the R&D sections of every single NERV branch and the operator personnel of every single Magi in the world.

Hope one of these might be good antagonist material. Especially the second sounds like it would fit in the world of Eva.

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:03 pm

The first and second one sound kind of fun, especially since their intent sounds much more altruistic than Seele's. They'd almost be more like 'antagonistic good guys' than outright villains. That'd leave good room for some serious soul searching or heroic BSOD moments for the main cast.

The third one...I really like. I've got a weak spot for evil scientist plots, especially 'plausible' ones, and it makes me think of Fringe, or Trevor Goodchild from Aeon Flux.
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Postby Ray » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:16 am

You know what I'd like to see? An Evangelion Fanfic where one of the trio becomes the villain.

Lots of people have theorized that if Shinji had lived to see adulthood he would have grown to become just as bad if not worse than Gendo. I'd like to see a Fanfic that runs with the idea. Preferably a spinoff/AU based off of 3.0. With Shinji as the leader of his own 3rd anarchist faction that wants BOTH Wille and Gendo to pay.

How far would Shinji have to be pushed before he would start being just as cruel to the world as its been to him?

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Postby driftking18594 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:39 pm

Well, there's always the shit-tier Asuka-is-a-big-fat-bitch-she's-the-biggest-bitch-in-the-whole-wide-worldfics if you want one of the main three to become a villain. :hahaha:

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Postby Chuckman » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:45 pm

View Original Postamitakartok wrote:The Adeptus Evangelion rulebooks include supplements for three factions, any of which can serve as antagonists. For your consideration...

  • The Eigenart Initiative, a SEELE splinter group that want to turn every single human into Tabrises by giving them full control over their own AT-fields. The result would be a race capable of autoevolution and combining the power of the Angels with the wisdom of the human mind. After getting all the recent data on the Angels and a sample of Lilith or Adam, they could "upgrade" everyone individually or hijack Third Impact to "upgrade" everyone at once. Naturally, SEELE is hunting them like crazy for trying to do the exact opposite of Instrumentality.
  • A group known only as Charon who want to hijack Third Impact and pull off a modified Instrumentality that only claims the souls of the dead, functioning as an afterlife. In order to create that afterlife however, they need an "initial payment" consisting of several million human souls including that of an Eva pilot, everyone of whom would be permanently destroyed in the process.
  • The Societas Eruditorum who are simply going for world domination, aiming to create a world governed by scientists and scholars monopolizing Evangelion technology. And they have infiltrators in even more places than SEELE, including the R&D sections of every single NERV branch and the operator personnel of every single Magi in the world.

Hope one of these might be good antagonist material. Especially the second sounds like it would fit in the world of Eva.


All of these would still make SEELE the bad guys. Except the Charon guys, I guess.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:32 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Lots of people have theorized that if Shinji had lived to see adulthood he would have grown to become just as bad if not worse than Gendo. I'd like to see a Fanfic that runs with the idea. Preferably a spinoff/AU based off of 3.0. With Shinji as the leader of his own 3rd anarchist faction that wants BOTH Wille and Gendo to pay.

How far would Shinji have to be pushed before he would start being just as cruel to the world as its been to him?

Well, an idea could be to have him take a path similar to Gabriel Belmont from the Castlevania : Lords of Shadows videogames :

SPOILER: Show
Have him sent in a quest to save a loved one and gain redemption(save Rei from EVA-01 and be forgiven by WILLE), go to highly amoral lengths to reach his goal only to find in the end that she can't be saved(or don't want to be saved, if she has Lilith's soul and Unit 01 is made from Lilith's body), while that WILLE's official pardon doesn't mean much since the people still think badly of him(and wasn't really his objective anymore in the first place, having kinda lost faith in mankind already).

So, now completely broken and with the only thing that made him keep advancing gone, he drifted alone in the wasteland, having lost his faith in love and mankind, until somehow he founds the ruins of the Black Moon or White Moon or some other FAR ruins(or is subconsciously called to them...), and once inside finds something that makes him evolves into some sort of Human/Angel hybrid with both the Fruit of Knowledge and the Fruit of Life, giving him powers similar to Kaworu's or even stronger(becoming some sort of FAR), and from here goes completely enraged and take SEELE's plans of the HIP as the true future for mankind, going to war against both WILLE and neo-NERV to take back either Unit 01 or 13 and finish what SEELE began.

And thus begin a war against a Shinji turned into a nightmarish and nigh unstoppable force of nature, who uses the technology inside the Black Moon/White Moon/FAR ruins to rise his own army of Angel copies(albeit not as strong as the original ones) and captured humans turned into beings with the Fruit of Life(but less powerful than Shinji, make it so he absorbed the power of a Seed of Life to explain the difference in power) as Lieutenants, as a giant middle-finger to both Misato and Gendo, forcing them into an extremely uneasy alliance to stop that surprise threat.
Last edited by ElMariachi on Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:36 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Stillborn » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:39 pm

That sounds much more interesting than whatever FINAL may spit at us :tongue:
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Postby Ray » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:02 am

My vision would be Shinji wants to mentally break the people who ruined his life the way he was mentally broken. Simply offing the human race, or instigating instrumentality wouldn't suffice for him. He needs poetic justice on the people whom have wronged him. He wants them to have to make sadistic choices like he was forced to make, and be alienated and betrayed the way he was. But not because he has an endgame in mind, he just wants to "balance the scales of Karma" with Misato, Gendo and company before going "to be with Rei and Kaworu".

Doing exactly to the people who wronged him what Gendo did to him. Becoming just like his father.

Who knows? Maybe he even earns sympathy from a few members of Wille who decide to join him on his unholy mission.

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Postby Clover » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:05 am

ayy lmao
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Postby AngelNo13Bardiel » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:33 am

Yeah, a good villain is a difficult thing to make in an Evafic. I've tried previously, with mixed results at best (see Azrael, Zero, etc).

As previously said, the characters' biggest antagonists are themselves. And SEELE, of course.
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:53 pm

Eva is a "man versus self" plot disguised as a quest or overcoming the monster plot.
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Postby xyz346 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:54 pm

Writing a villain for an EVA fic would be a very interesting challenge indeed.

I admit that I find the idea of Shinji turning evil after Rebuild 3.0/3.33 to be very interesting.

An idea I have would be for to Shinji to take control Unit-01 and blackmail WILLE into serving him. Afterwards, he proceeds to destroy NERV...but in the process, he breaks WILLE's crew even further, perhaps driving them into becoming villains themselves.

Of course, pretty much every Rebuild fanfic I've seen so far has flanderized Misato and Asuka into being evil and extremely unlikeable.
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