[Film] The First Avenger: Captain America

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Postby Tarnsman » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:04 am

View Original PostBornIn1142 wrote:The movie takes place in a somewhat more advanced, more fantastical alternate universe. I don't see why this is a big deal.


Because when I watch a film involving 'fantastical history' I like it to still feel like it's in that time period. All the stuff that is still impossible for us to do today being thrown in just takes me out of the movie. Stark didn't need a hover car using repulsion fields. Have him trying to turn the car into a rudimentary helicopter. He was already doing his best to channel Terry O'Quinn's Howard Hughes from The Rocketeer, so have him make something like a jetpack that doesn't work because it's 1942 and jet propulsion is still very rudimentary, and you could have had it be like a really early prototype for the Ironman hand jets, to tie into the canon they're setting up.

And again, if the racial diverse squad was actually developed as characters it wouldn't have stuck out as much, but since they were basically thrown in during the last half and were extremely ancillary characters it came across as blatant pandering. The only one I remember as a character beyond "the *insert race or nationality here* guy" was the one with the intense bowler hat and mustache because I spent the first five minutes he was on screen wondering, "Is that the guy who played Compton in Band of Brothers?"
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Postby BornIn1142 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:11 pm

View Original PostTarnsman wrote:Because when I watch a film involving 'fantastical history' I like it to still feel like it's in that time period. All the stuff that is still impossible for us to do today being thrown in just takes me out of the movie.


Well, what can I say? You were wrong to expect a historically accurate war movie.

Also, there's more to filming a period piece than the level of technology used. Sets, costumes and designs were nice and appropriate.

And again, if the racial diverse squad was actually developed as characters it wouldn't have stuck out as much, but since they were basically thrown in during the last half and were extremely ancillary characters it came across as blatant pandering.


What the heck does this even mean? Pandering to whom? Proponents of political correctness? Fans of the comics?

Once again, the Howling Commandos are straight from the comics. Seeing that you're talking about an adaption, you can't just dismiss this fact with a petulant "I don't care!" Absolutely nothing would have been gained by replacing the Commandos with random white nobodies, and it should be obvious that white-washing them would have been unacceptable (and would most likely have landed the producers in hot water). If you have a problem with the film's writers fleshing out the movie's universe with perfectly appropriate cameos, then that's tough indeed.

And guess what? It's perfectly normal for movies to have ancillary characters. Your random colorful side-liners don't really need development; they exist to support the main cast.
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Postby Tarnsman » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:35 pm

View Original PostBornIn1142 wrote:Well, what can I say? You were wrong to expect a historically accurate war movie.

Also, there's more to filming a period piece than the level of technology used. Sets, costumes and designs were nice and appropriate.

I don't want historical accuracy, I want historical fantasy that uses elements of that time period to create its fantasy. Not the clearly modern, sleek and well designed stuff that clashed against the rest of the film.

View Original PostBornIn1142 wrote:What the heck does this even mean? Pandering to whom? Proponents of political correctness? Fans of the comics?

Once again, the Howling Commandos are straight from the comics. Seeing that you're talking about an adaption, you can't just dismiss this fact with a petulant "I don't care!" Absolutely nothing would have been gained by replacing the Commandos with random white nobodies, and it should be obvious that white-washing them would have been unacceptable (and would most likely have landed the producers in hot water). If you have a problem with the film's writers fleshing out the movie's universe with perfectly appropriate cameos, then that's tough indeed.

And guess what? It's perfectly normal for movies to have ancillary characters. Your random colorful side-liners don't really need development; they exist to support the main cast.


When only two of the characters share names with another group of WW2 soldiers that was lead by a completely different character and not Captain America, you can't really hide behind the Howling Commandos excuse. I'll accept the Howling Commandos excuse when you tell me where Robert "Rebel" Ralston, Dino Manelli, Percival "Pinky" Pinkerton, Isadore "Izzy" Cohen, and Eric Koenig went. And also when you tell me where in that roster is a Frenchmen and an Asian guy from Fresno. That's why it's pandering. They didn't even properly recreate the WW2 commandos. If I can't remember a character beyond what race the were because they were so underdeveloped that there role is literally "Token *Insert Race Here* Character" that is not racially diverse casting. That's racist casting. That's "we need to fulfill some racial quota so we won't get bitched at". A character should not be defined by their race or sex, they should be memorable because they were a good character. And don't tell me side characters can't be good, because cinema has proven that they can time and time again.

If the movie was about Captain America and the Howling Commandos that would have been fine. It's not. It's about Captain America and half way through he finds a group of characters that should be developed side characters but instead are treated as extremely background characters who are just there to shoot bullets/lasers and have maybe twenty lines between the six (or was it seven?) of them.
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Postby arkiel » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:22 pm

I don't want historical accuracy, I want historical fantasy that uses elements of that time period to create its fantasy. Not the clearly modern, sleek and well designed stuff that clashed against the rest of the film.


If this clash that bothers you so much starts anywhere after the point where they get the cosmic cube, then you're not paying close enough attention to the plot.

If you're complaining about Stark's hover car, well, its the Marvel universe, not ours. Its a world of nascent repulsor-tech, super soldier serums, and artifacts from Odin's treasure room.

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Postby Tarnsman » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:44 pm

View Original Postarkiel wrote:If this clash that bothers you so much starts anywhere after the point where they get the cosmic cube, then you're not paying close enough attention to the plot.

If you're complaining about Stark's hover car, well, its the Marvel universe, not ours. Its a world of nascent repulsor-tech, super soldier serums, and artifacts from Odin's treasure room.


The cosmic cube was fine because it felt mythical. It was allowed to be out of place. One of the most common complains levied against Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is against the usage of aliens. The other three Indiana Jones movies had unrealistic stuff, why was aliens suddenly bad when the previous movies had the arc of the covenant and the holy grail? Because there is a disconnect between something being fantasy and something being science fiction.

They went through a lot of trouble creating a 40s feel with the movie, but when it came for the science fiction element they decided to make it very modern. Everything was very sleek and didn't have the 40s feel it needed. Things like the chair they used to make him into a super soldier felt too high tech, especially since the outside felt very 40s with the control panels being mostly knobs and levers, and even the outside of the chair when it finally closed on him, had that 40s hue to the metal. It wasn't all sleek and polished. That's what clashed.
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"I know that "chan" is Japanese for something like Mr. or something like that" - TSDA
"If I wanted porn without emotional damage, I'd watch Rebuild." - Azathoth
"because Evangelion and Pokemon are the same show when you really get down to it" - esselfortium
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Postby McDirty » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:31 pm

Was it just me or did the Red Skull look like the Red Mask?

Image

Anyways, I thought the movie was ok. I didn't hate it, nor did I think it was spectacular. It was just ok. I was really impressed with the first half of the film and how Chris Evans is made to look like a skinny toothpick. The wow factor definitely comes in when you see the contrast between his skinny self and his muscular self. I did think the action was downplayed in the movie, while there is plenty of it, it didn't feel satisfactory. Especially when they start replacing the action with montages.
It also felt like the movie was flip flopping between wanting to be a superhero movie and a war movie, because the two ideas didn't seem to fit together well. However, I did like a lot of the interaction between Captain America, the Tommy Lee Jones character, Hayley Atwell character, and the Stark character. The love story in this movie is pretty good too, way better than that annoying Green Lantern stuff.

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Postby BornIn1142 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:53 pm

View Original PostTarnsman wrote:I don't want historical accuracy, I want historical fantasy that uses elements of that time period to create its fantasy. Not the clearly modern, sleek and well designed stuff that clashed against the rest of the film.


The modern day depicted in the Marvel film universe is also more advanced than our world. These advances had to be made at some point in the fictional timeline. Howard Stark's failed hover-car, for instance, is a direct reference/predecessor of the flying cars typically employed by SHIELD. Frankly, it makes perfect sense that these science-fiction gadgets didn't just magically appear in the present day. It's basic world-building.

When only two of the characters share names with another group of WW2 soldiers that was lead by a completely different character and not Captain America, you can't really hide behind the Howling Commandos excuse.


Um, all but one the Howling Commandos depicted in the movie are based on pre-existing members of the team in the comics - and the exception was a contemporary character that fit into the context of the squad (the British guy). The team has had multiple rosters and a large gallery of characters to choose from. Why does this matter again?

If I can't remember a character beyond what race the were because they were so underdeveloped that there role is literally "Token *Insert Race Here* Character" that is not racially diverse casting. That's racist casting. That's "we need to fulfill some racial quota so we won't get bitched at".


Actually, their roles were "Howling Commando A" and "Howling Commando B," about the same as it worked with "Nazi Representative A" or "Nazi Representative B" or any of the other members of the supporting cast. You're the only one who's making an issue out of their race.

If the movie was about Captain America and the Howling Commandos that would have been fine. It's not. It's about Captain America and half way through he finds a group of characters that should be developed side characters but instead are treated as extremely background characters who are just there to shoot bullets/lasers and have maybe twenty lines between the six (or was it seven?) of them.


By what arbitrary measure did you decide that these minor characters had to be developed more? They're minor characters because they're minor characters. They exist to back Captain America, both in the narrative and in the story, and they're neat little cameos for people familiar with the comics. That's all there is to them, and I am still very confused why you feel they HAD to be more just because one of them is black and one of them is Asian.
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Postby Tarnsman » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:31 pm

View Original PostBornIn1142 wrote:*Snip*

Ignoring the stupid Avengers-canon that has been shoehorned into these movies (and not once for the better...okay that's a lie because Not Howard Hughes was really good in this movie, but he could have been there regardless of The Avengers). The sci-fi aspects in his movie served one purpose. To look cool. They didn't add to the feel of the universe, they only detracted from that. They didn't create a unique feel that made the movie truly inspiring. They didn't do anything in this film. They were there for stupid, poorly shot action sequences that followed the Lucas/Bay doctrine of throwing up on the screen and calling it action. Now this film did actually have some fun and engaging action scenes, but not one of them involved the futuristic technology. Because once that got involved it did nothing but create a visual mess that detracted from the feel and clashed with the rest of the film.

@The Howling Commandos: of the seven that are given any focus, only two of them were commandos in any incarnation, another one of them is from a team Captain America did actually lead, but he was a super hero not a regular soldier in that. Meaning four, or the majority, were original characters that do not meet the comic book cameo clause to be there as a shout out to fans of the source material. Gabriel Jones gets a pass because he was actually a Howling Commando.

And again, if this was any modern war I would have no problem with the composition of the team, in fact I'd be pissed if it wasn't racially diverse. That's because the modern American military really is that diverse to where if you randomly pulled ten names out of a hat you would end up with a group coming from different ethnic backgrounds. This was World War II however, where over 90% of the American military was some form of Caucasian. That's my problem. They don't feel like they would naturally come out of random selection, they feel carefully constructed and fake. Which, like the sci-fi, completely takes me out of a movie that I was otherwise enjoying.

But let's say that Captain America wanted the best of the best and that's why his unit is diverse. Well then his unit should have instead been composed of Audie Murphy, Vasily Zaytsev, Simo Häyhä, and the roughly 4000 Asian men who made up the 442nd Infantry Regiment. Then I'd understand the diversity.

Captain America did however succeed in gender diversity in that the love interest was both a good character and was a strong female character without falling into the standard pitfalls most movie females do when the attempt to portray them as "strong". She actually felt like a character, she wasn't intrusive, she didn't come across as being stuck there simply to have a female character, she was developed, and most importantly she wasn't annoying. I will say that her running into battle with almost no combat gear along side the front line troops was retarded though.
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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:32 pm

OK, so I got off my arse and went to Captain America (FUCK YEAH!)

What I LIKED about Captain America...

1. Joe Johnston has always been a good, but not great, director. Most anything he is involved in is at least OK (except that ill-advised Wolfman remake that should never have happened in the first place). This film is perhaps the most mature film he has made since the forgotten and overlooked October Sky.

2. Not to spoil anything, but there were plenty of Rocketeer-esque moments throughout, and that was a GREAT thing.

3. There were some genuinely funny moments in this, which surprised me. So many intentional jokes in movies made today are either there for pure shock value or fall flat because of bad writing or whoever delivered the line wrong.

4. If I was not made aware of the weird "scrawny" effect, I would not have noticed, and the only time I noticed was when scrawny Chris Evans and the camera were both still. I was surprised at how good it worked, people who complained about this were wrong about it being terribly distracting IMO.

5. Everybody talks about that exchange "You don't give up don't you?" and "No." But for me, the real interesting exchange was "You fight in the name of a nation. I have seen the future where there are no nations." and something like "I will not let that future happen." or something like that. I don't think that was a terribly serious line but it amused me.

What I DISLIKED about Captain America...

1. I feel like everything wrong in this movie was due to the Marvel Illuminati getting their hands on the script and forcing it through The Avengers shredder, which included:

a. The romance with Peggy Carter REALLY felt like it was tacked on, they either should have developed that storyline far more in the second act of the movie or dropped it. I do not think she was bad in terms of acting, but the script and dialogue felt very out of place.

b. The shades of political correctness that never quite faded. This was not as bad as some WW2-related films have been (practically all of them since Schnidler's List it seems) since they was some feeling of an AMERICA FUCK YEAH VICTORY in the end unlike all the others, but the subtext of "bullying" just annoyed me, coupled with doing everything possible to play down the American side of Captain America as "The First Avenger" so as not to offend the box office receipts of some snooty moviegoers in Europe or Asia. Yeah, yeah, I know nobody likes America is some parts of the world, but trying to have it both ways like this is so stupid.

c. On that note, the laser weapons. Again, being PC/sanitizing for the pussies out there, GOD FORBID we show IRL weapons with *gasp!* people shooting each other dead with REAL guns that have bullets in a somewhat realistic setting!!! OH THE HUMANITY!!! BOO FUCKING HOO! So what if you risk an R rating by showing that? There was no sex so it would have been fine considering what passes for PG-13 today.

d. GODDAMN LENS FLARE!! And J.J. Abrams was not even involved. Lens flare needs to go away for a while so it can have the chance to appreciated by me without having to frequently squint or turn away quickly from the screen and being very annoyed.

2. In the end, the film should have either played up the goofy stuff way more or gone Christopher Nolan and stayed that way the whole time from the Paramount logo sequence through the end credits, the balancing act should have not been an issue because the imbalance disallowed a great movie from being possible here.

despite my bitching, this was pretty good, but I feel like way more good could have been accomplished here

in the meantime, I will re-watch The Rocketeer for the 1,548th time, God bless you Timothy Dalton
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P.S. For those wanting to discuss a matter with yours truly not pertaining to the general topic at hand, PM me. Please and thank you.

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Postby Tarnsman » Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:54 pm

View Original PostTHE Hal E. Burton 9000 wrote:*Snip*

Pretty much my sentiment.
THE Hal E. Burton 9000 wrote:October Sky.

I completely forgot that movie even existed until right now. I have no idea why either. It wasn't a terrible movie or something that warrants being that forgettable.
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Postby chaosakita » Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:04 pm

I thought this movie was pretty mediocre. I was disappointed, honestly.

My biggest problem with the movie was that it felt silly. I know it's a superhero movie, but with Iron Man (my favorite superhero movie), the Dark Knight, and even X-Men:Origins, I thought we might have moved on this by now. I think this was exemplified by the whole taking control of all weapons and tanks in the first base liberation scene.

However, I did really like the final plane scene. To me, that was one of the more emotional scenes in movies that I've seen.

I'm really excited for the Avengers, but I'm afraid it will be a huge disappointment. Still, but any sort of Steve and Tony interaction will be great. I really hope RDJ will play his charms up and Evans will be receptive to that. <3
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