Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby movieartman » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:53 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Disney too wants these shows gone because they’re “tarnishing” the Marvel brand.

How? Only Iron Fist S1 got truly horrible reception. All the others are considered better then most Arrow/Legends of tomorrow/Gotham/Supergirl episodes & Devil S1 is considered on par with the Dark Knight & one of the most faithful comic adaptions ever. I've heard S3 was very well received as well.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:20 pm

The “tarnishing” comment is less about quality than it is public image. Disney has branded itself 100% on being all about family friendly entertainment because that’s where the most money is at. They’ll allow their PG-13 films to dip into darker material but mostly in a surface level way. Disney has bought up and used other brands to sell adult faring material - i.e. Disney owned Miramax in the 90s so one could argue in a very jokey bullshit roundabout way Mia Wallace from Pulp Ficiton could count as a Disney princess - but the name brand Disney has always been FAMILY FRIENDLY. They’ve been leaning more into family friendly image a lot more than recently than in the past few decades cause it makes bank. Marvel is now synonimous with that family friendly brand as the edgy cool part of the Mouse House and Marvel characters are only going to become more synomimous as the Disney+ streaming service heavily sells up Marvel movies & shows.

Having those other dark Marvel branded shows out there about rape, catholic guilt, race, appropriation and a dude who loves guns “tarnish” an otherwise safe brand as far as Disney is concerned. Those are serious topics far outside the safety of Marvel’s PG-13 image and Disney is all about image.** They are the corporation who sued daycare centers for having Disney characters on the walls.

I’m sure Disney would rather not have those characters outside of their control dealing with that kind of subject matter while being connected directly with the Marvel brand name.


PS. I’m not even gonna touch the Daredevil Season 1 is on par with The Dark Knight nonsense.

**Like how Disney embraces their long legacy of animation (as they should) but do everything in their power to bury Song of the South, the partially animated 1946 theatrical movie starring Uncle Remus and how he felt life on the plantation wasn’t so bad and the masters were really nice wonderful people.

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Postby movieartman » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:06 pm

Apparently Season 4 was fully plotted out & everything - https://www.cbr.com/daredevil-season-4- ... cellation/

Why did they even start these shows if they didn't like the contrast between them & the tone of the movies? It's not like they were started super early before it was clear what style the full universe would have. Daredevil S1 aired in 2015 around Age of Ultron & the 1st Ant Man.

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Postby Chuckman » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:34 pm

Besides all the moving picture show company politics, one reason to kill off the Netflix shows is that their only connection to the MCU is offhand references to aliens or the “green guy” but you can’t make a season of television set in a world where half the people turned to dust and tens of millions more died in the aftermath with some one liners to tie them together.
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Postby El Squibbonator » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:08 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:The “tarnishing” comment is less about quality than it is public image. Disney has branded itself 100% on being all about family friendly entertainment because that’s where the most money is at. They’ll allow their PG-13 films to dip into darker material but mostly in a surface level way. Disney has bought up and used other brands to sell adult faring material - i.e. Disney owned Miramax in the 90s so one could argue in a very jokey bullshit roundabout way Mia Wallace from Pulp Ficiton could count as a Disney princess - but the name brand Disney has always been FAMILY FRIENDLY. They’ve been leaning more into family friendly image a lot more than recently than in the past few decades cause it makes bank. Marvel is now synonimous with that family friendly brand as the edgy cool part of the Mouse House and Marvel characters are only going to become more synomimous as the Disney+ streaming service heavily sells up Marvel movies & shows.

Having those other dark Marvel branded shows out there about rape, catholic guilt, race, appropriation and a dude who loves guns “tarnish” an otherwise safe brand as far as Disney is concerned. Those are serious topics far outside the safety of Marvel’s PG-13 image and Disney is all about image.** They are the corporation who sued daycare centers for having Disney characters on the walls.

I’m sure Disney would rather not have those characters outside of their control dealing with that kind of subject matter while being connected directly with the Marvel brand name.


PS. I’m not even gonna touch the Daredevil Season 1 is on par with The Dark Knight nonsense.

**Like how Disney embraces their long legacy of animation (as they should) but do everything in their power to bury Song of the South, the partially animated 1946 theatrical movie starring Uncle Remus and how he felt life on the plantation wasn’t so bad and the masters were really nice wonderful people.


I know I'm going to get some flack for saying this, but I think Disney's insistence that everything it produces be appropriate for family viewing is the WORST decision the company has EVER made (yes, worse than getting rid of hand-drawn animation. Bite me).

Other big movie and TV studios, like Viacom, Time Warner, and Comcast, don't have this problem. You can watch an R-rated Universal or Warner Bros. movie and not come away with the impression that Universal or Warner Bros. is "tarnishing" their brand. And because of that, those studios have flexibility. They can make whatever they want-- a kid's movie, an adult drama, a horror movie-- and release it all under the same brand name. Because they never had a specific brand. They just made movies.

Disney isn't like that. They have to keep everything kid-friendly because that's the way they've always done it. Any more "adult" franchises they acquire, such as will inevitably happen during the Fox merger, will either be cancelled or neutered to the point of being unrecognizable. This is not a good thing-- especially because of how it affects other studios. Think about it:
Why has it taken so long for adult animation to catch on in America? Because for decades, the only studio making mass-market animated movies was Disney, and all they wanted to do was make movies for kids.
Why do the DC superhero movies suck? Because DC wants to imitate Marvel, thinking that's the only way to make a superhero franchise.
Why do so many studios prefer to make franchise films rather than risky, innovative stories? You can blame the Marvel Cinematic Universe for that.

If I were in Bob Iger's shoes, I would abolish the company's "all kid-friendly, all the time" mantra once and for all. Plenty of movies for kids would still be made, of course, but there would also be movies aimed at adults in a way that Disney doesn't do right now. Why can't Disney just act like a regular company, and not have to bend over backwards to make everything fit a preconcieved notion of what its image "should be" ? Why can't they make movies for every demographic, not just kids and families?
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:11 am

^ Well, artistically I agree with you. Business-wise, it's hard to argue with Disney's dominance over the industry. Numbers don't lie, man. This stuff works.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:11 pm

You won't get flack for saying it. I'm with you entirely in that Disney is in the perfect position to make all types of films for all ages & demographics & they should.

But as pointed out, Disney ain't in this business to make art anymore. The budget of one of their Cartoon Remakes, Superhero movies, Star Wars spinoffs , etc could pay for the production and distribution of up to a dozen older demographic driven movies. But none of them will make 1/50th of what Avengers 8 will do. Sure, they've got a hell of a PR team who will sell to the world that "We here at Marvel/Pixar/Star Wars/etc are redefining what it means to tell stories and we're solely driven to tell the best stories possible" and people will eat that shit up but Disney is solely focused on profit and have done everything they can to remove risk from the equation. Everything they make is focus grouped to the nth degree and they'll only make projects that are guaranteed to make the most money possible. The projects that make the most money? Things the whole family can see together.** The biggest R rated ticket seller - Passion of the Christ - is 40th on the list and when you take away the merchandise opportunities that don't come often with R rated movies you're talking a difference in overall profit. The Cars movies may be known as Pixar's lowest selling batch of films but has brought them billions of dollars in merchandise sales through toys and clothes to appeal to children.

Disney has encroached on 50% of the theatrical market and is well over the 50% in overall ancillary sales. Once they get into the streaming game next Fall they'll most likely take over 50% of the market there as well as they use their brand name series as a weapon to crush the competition who will have to abandon originals - i.e. Stranger Things - and make content with brand awareness to compete - Cowboy Bebop & Avatar: The Last Airbender remakes. The big boss gets to make the rules and other studios - like Warner Brothers regarding DC Comics - are forced and have to take risks in order to compete.

Disney doesn't care if people liked Daredevil on Netflix. In fact, Disney is aware that putting Netflix in the place where they cancelled one of their top viewed shows will only help Disney in the long run when they can "save" the character a few years from now and people will say "Disney cares about their viewers unlike Netflix, or Warner Brothers, or etc."

It's a harsh system but that's the entertainment industry. They're conglomerates and someone somewhere has worked out the math and figured despite the good reviews, word of mouth and fanbase a show like Daredevil could cause them to lose X amount of Audience Y in location Z and that could lead to an overall loss of 0.0005% in profits for 2023.

**Marvel has especially learned to weaponize social awareness. Trades won't cover it but Marvel passed on the go-ahead from Disney to make a female led superhero movie well over 5 years ago because they didn't see the profit in women led stories. It was only after people started calling them out on their bullshit that they put a Captain Marvel movie into production and are now selling it as "a HERo" story and everyone is eating it up. Marvel didn't want to make the movie - or at least not give her her own film - but they're aware how to stay in people's good graces through doing the bare minimum when forced too and still reap profits.

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:29 pm

Ah yes, Disney only lets Marvel make safe movies, like the one where the villain wins and half the population of the entire universe dies, including a bunch of beloved characters.

Yeah yeah, they'll be back. Did you also know that they're actors and none of them really died? I mean, how can they be serious about portraying these characters if they're not willing to actually be turned into coffee grounds and scattered into the wind?

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Disney ain't in this business to make art anymore.


When were they? They're a merchandising company and for most of their history their business model could best be described as stealing public domain characters from the public domain by standardizing them, slapping a Made in China sticker on their ass, and charging $400 a day to visit them in their huge temples of standardized anticreativity.

If you strip away everything Disney adapted, bought, or stole to make their commerical products you're left with Mickey Mouse and Hannah Montana.

Also, the Captain Marvel second trailer dropped yesterday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LHxvxdRnYc

The cat thing alone has sold me.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:52 pm

You can be a fan of this universe and not sugarcoat things.
The ending of Infinity War would actually be worth talking about if it wasn't already announced that half these "dead" characters have future movies and TV shows in production.
It's not a brave move when they go out of their way to have Tom Holland dressed as Spider-man in the next movies Spider-Suit show up to make jokes on Jimmy Kimmel. It's a move right out of television. It's a cliffhanger built on the calculated assurance guaranteeing the viewer will come back to watch the following episode next year.

We can reiterate this conversation again but again but storytelling choices worth talking about have permanent consequences. Until they retcon things - which I'm sure they will - Thor's homeworld getting destroyed at the end of Thor: Ragnarok is an actual consequence. The ending of Infinity War makes it pointedly clear in who they poof that these aren't permanent consequences. They just set up the mission our surviving original Avengers squad heroes have to set out to achieve in Part 2.

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Postby El Squibbonator » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:21 pm

I've just become very disillusioned with Disney over the past few years. The sad thing is, I actually like a lot of Disney's movies. It's just that nowadays, all of those movies come from the same-old, same-old half-dozen series. There's no novelty. They weren't always like this. Say what you will about Michael Eisner, but I personally think he did a better job about making sure Disney had a varied output than Bob Iger is doing now.
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:59 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:
We can reiterate this conversation again but again but storytelling choices worth talking about have permanent consequences.


I don't care if the characters are all going to come back later, watching the movie made me emotional when I was watching it, in the moment. If it does that, it's a success. It's all fake, so all the yammering about how they'll come back is essentially complaining that it's just a story.

If it failed to capture your imagination and spark an emotional response, fine, that's a criticism, but the "consequences" nonsense is the literary equivalent of armchair experts on Reddit lamenting the use of CGI by pointing out practical effects which are actually CGI they weren't aware of.

It's pretty funny when this complaint keeps resurfacing when it's obvious that at some point they're going to kill off or permanently retire the flagship heroes because the actors are real people that age and have to sign contracts or they won't be playing the roles anymore. These movies have more "actual" consequences than comic books themselves.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:08 pm

^ I see where you're coming from, but GendosPapa was simply saying that Disney was making "safe" movies, narratively speaking. The fact that Avenger's Infinity War made you feel emotions doesn't make the movie "unsafe" in some way, it just means that the movie was effective in its narrative goals. Killing Tom Holland's Spider-Man in Infinity War was emotional and effective storytelling. Keeping his character dead would be bold and daring storytelling.

Not that any 5-year-olds watching will care about that distinction. I quite enjoyed seeing something in theaters that made the kids around me cry a little. It's good to know that there's still innocence left in this world, ya know?

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:25 pm

When I saw it on opening night there were adults sobbing for Spider-Man.

Infinity War is about the worst example of safe storytelling from Disney-Marvel. Age of Ultron was safe storytelling.

You know was offensively safe storytelling? The adaptation of A Wrinkle in Time that they released this year. There was nothing but budget to distinguish that movie from made for tv crap from the Disney Channel and the entire movie just threw up its hands and said "look, Oprah!" while cutting out everything challenging from the source material for some reason, probably to make it accessible.

Beauty and the Beast was safe storytelling; the way the handled the gay subtext around Gaston succeeded in making the movie more gay but less queer, and so forth.
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Postby El Squibbonator » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:29 pm

The sad thing is, Disney as a company was founded on risk-taking endeavors. Snow White? Pinocchio? Fantasia? Those were all risky movies by the standards of their time. Disney used to be all about taking risks and doing things no other movie studio had done before. What happened to them? How did they lose their mojo?
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:52 pm

Money.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

At some point in their history, all the conservative, globe trotting juggernauts were risk-takers, and then they became mainstream and didn't fix what wasn't broken.

Even if it was cat shit, Beauty and the Beast brought in a massive ROI. So there will be more.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:49 pm

The last Marvel movie to have taken any general risks was Iron Man Three. It also is one of the few Marvel movies to have a bit of a real personality. It's of course hated by a majority of the fanbase because it doesn't pander to the fans.

Infinity War is 150 minutes of pure pandering. They took 10 different franchises, mixed them all together in the third entry of their biggest franchise, gave each character their own highlight reel and then ended the movie with a "tune in next year" ending. Then the end credits teaser basically states "if you don't see Captain Marvel you're gonna be so lost come part 2". Infinity War is a movie devoid of an ending - and a soul, the argument that Thanos is the main character is an empty defense because despite Josh Brolin doing what we can we know nothing of who he is an individual - because it doesn't have one. It's the first act of a larger story and the movie ends telling the audience you have to buy a ticket to two more movies. Not risky storytelling. But very smart commerce. Marvel has perfected the art of never ending hype and fans eat it up because it's their thing. And that's okay. But it's hypocrisy to pontificate Disney is all about money - they are - and then call what Marvel is doing "risky storytelling". It's not. It's pure commerce. And that's okay.
Now, I thought A Wrinkle in Time was garbage but I do give that movie the credit for casting an African American girl as the lead. It means little to me but means a lot to young girls who never see themselves in the lead role. Still a terrible movie. Can't dispute that.

P.S. Age of Ultron was a mess because the movie went into production with an approved ending where Tony Stark died to make up for the hubris of creating Ultron. It's a movie where Stark's arrogance that he knows best for every one leads to the creation of a world destroying AI and he makes penance by ... creating a sentient AI in Vision... but don't worry y'all cause this time it's good. Disney saw the Captain America movies were underperforming - they did fine but not $1 billion fine - so they forced drastic third act changes onto the movie so Robert Downey Jr could be used as a draw for Civil War. That's why Whedon had a major falling out with the studio. They hampered his movie late in the game so the next movie could make more money. It worked too. Fans say they hate Ultron but still turned out Civil War which did about $400 million more at the worldwide box office than Winter Solider.
Hell, some of the "deaths" that were originally set to be permanent in Infinity War have already been written out now that Disney+ is a thing. Example: Tom Hiddleston's death in IW was supposed to be official, he wanted out of Marvel since his star power has grown a great deal since 2011 and he's lost a few good gigs with top directors due to the scheduling necessities of having to be Thor's frenemy. Now he's renegotiated and has that high budget Disney+ series all about him. Only characters I see staying dead for good are Idris Elba - he took the first one strictly to work with Kenneth Branagh and haaaated being pulled back in every few years for a few months at a time to play a bit part and has wanted to be written out since - and maybe Dave Bautisita - and that's only because he's vocally been asking to be written out of Guardians 3 for the studios appeasing to the Alt-Right.

P.S.S. If anyone thinks I'm a comic book movie hater I'm not. I just like good movies and Black Panther aside I've found the recent Marvel movies, especially Infinity War, blow because in place of character & human stories they've been fully focused on bullshit McGuffins & expanding the universe solely as a neverending money generator in lieu of character story. The past few Marvel movies have been ALL PLOT. ZERO TO NO STORY. But, I did get to see a screening of Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse and while I'm not crazy with the millions of franchise possibilities it opens - Sony has surprisingly thought this through and could do very well for a long time as home to the Spider-People and this is the launch of ANOTHER Cinematic Universe - as a movie it is stellar and could likely go down on my favorite films of the year. Don't miss it. Frankly, I think the MCU movies would all be ten times better as animated movies and this one delivers as a fun time!

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:04 pm

You're looking at it from the wrong direction. There is no comparison between Iron Man 3 and Infinity War.

Iron Man 3 is a character study, it's essentially a redo of Iron Man 2 with an actual character arc.

Infinity War is mythology. It's not a story of quite moments and reflective characters. It's bombast, it's more ragnarok than Ragnarok. Moments like a dying Heimdall sending the Hulk to earth to warn of the coming of Thanos and King Thor forging a kingly weapon and the last stand of Wakanda. The two movies together will form an epic (in the classical sense of the word) story of passing the torch from hero to hero. It represents a form of filmmaking that has largely been abandoned in modern times despite the digital toy box filmmakers have available to them now. A huge spectacle for the sake of spectacle. Pure melodrama that exists for its own sake.

If you take a concept like Infinity War and try to put ~meaning~ into it you get Batman bin Suparman, Dawn of Punching.

Age of Ultron was a mess because the movie went into production with an approved ending where Tony Stark died to make up for the hubris of creating Ultron. It's a movie where Stark's arrogance that he knows best for every one leads to the creation of a world destroying AI and he makes penance by ... creating a sentient AI in Vision... but don't worry y'all cause this time it's good. Disney saw the Captain America movies were underperforming - they did fine but not $1 billion fine - so they forced drastic third act changes onto the movie so Robert Downey Jr could be used as a draw for Civil War. That's why Whedon had a major falling out with the studio.


I'm glad they changed it. Civil War was a fantastic movie and no amount of Tony Stark dying could make up for Whedon's waif fu "I'm a monster because my uterus doesn't work" horseshit and TV style directing. Joss Whendon is obsolete.
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Postby Chuckman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:08 am

https://youtu.be/hA6hldpSTF8

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ WE ARE IN THE ENDGAME NOW ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:53 am

^ They're releasing two movies 48 days apart? Seriously? Also, that's one hell of a trailer, and title. Though I guess given the plot, they'd need to make chess reference.

And it's ironic (to me) that ST:VOY's finale was called Endgame and involved time travel to correct the past for a better future.

El Squibbonator wrote:The sad thing is, Disney as a company was founded on risk-taking endeavors. Snow White? Pinocchio? Fantasia? Those were all risky movies by the standards of their time. Disney used to be all about taking risks and doing things no other movie studio had done before. What happened to them? How did they lose their mojo?

They remember that they released Song of the South and are afraid to make the same mistake :rolleyes:

But in all seriousness, they focus on the younger demographic where the good guys always win and complex themes are toned down for accessibility. In addition to that Disney wants to make fuckloads of money. To do that they stick with a formula that works, that makes money, a cookie cutter format as many people call it. They are fun to watch, but are all basically the same, with exceptions of course.

Chuckman wrote:I'm glad they changed it. Civil War was a fantastic movie and no amount of Tony Stark dying could make up for Whedon's waif fu "I'm a monster because my uterus doesn't work" horseshit and TV style directing. Joss Whendon is obsolete.

Yeah, that would have been really stupid if them to do... but Chuckman, what's the "waf fu" uterus thing you're talking about, I'm a bit lost :???:
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby El Squibbonator » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:33 am

It's a truism about female movie character-- that they can be a mother OR a competent heroine, but never both at the same time. Joss Whedon is especially guilty of this.
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