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Postby Semisubtle » Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:03 pm

I was very surprised to see Eva so high on the list, but more stung by Sailor Moon's COMPLETE lack of appearance. I mean, seriously, Card Captor Sakura and NOT Sailor Moon? Completely ridiculous.

Cowboy Bebop does totally deserve number one, though, I'll give them that.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:59 am

Semisubtle wrote:I was very surprised to see Eva so high on the list,
Why? Granted, it's not appreciated nearly as much here as in Japan, but still...

Semisubtle wrote:Cowboy Bebop does totally deserve number one, though, I'll give them that.
No.
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Postby BrikHaus » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:43 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:
Semisubtle wrote:Cowboy Bebop does totally deserve number one, though, I'll give them that.
I agree, it is by far the best series of all time, far better than Evangelion.

fixed
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Postby TriLink » Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:16 pm

BrikHaus wrote:
Eva Yojimbo wrote:
Semisubtle wrote:Cowboy Bebop does totally deserve number one, though, I'll give them that.
I agree, it is by far the best series of all time, far better than Evangelion.

fixed

EVA's a great show, don't get me wrong, but I think in order to be #1, you have to be able to appeal to a large variety of people. And frankly Cowboy Bebop does a better job of this than EVA (not to mention the ending dosen't make me wanna OD on Vicodin).
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Postby Defectron » Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:44 pm

I liked eva a bit better then bebop, though if were talking series I liked flcl the best.
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Postby CitizenGeek » Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:47 pm

There's no way Cowboy Bebop is better than Evangelion, or, indeed, most of the series in that top 10. Cowboy Bebop is outstanding, but it's not as almighty as many suggest. The comedy in the series is often cringe-inducing-ly childish thanks to Ed, it's episodic nature means very few plots harness the potential they show at the start of the episode and the music (excluding the OP and ED) are far from Yoko Kanno's best work. That said, I found Cowboy Bebop immensely enjoyable, however it most certainly does not deserve the number 1 position, especially over stuff like Evangelion.
I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf mutes.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:24 pm

BrikHaus wrote:Cowboy Bebop is to anime what John Woo is to film-making, and Eva is 1,000,000x better (apprx.)
fixed.

TriLink12 wrote:I agree, it is by far the best series of all time, far better than Evangelion.
Lol, no.

TriLink12 wrote:EVA's a great show, don't get me wrong, but I think in order to be #1, you have to be able to appeal to a large variety of people.
That's a rather arbitrary distinction. Mass appeal is no reflection of quality, and if anything it's usually a sign of crappiness.

TriLink12 wrote:And frankly Cowboy Bebop does a better job of this than EVA (not to mention the ending dosen't make me wanna OD on Vicodin).
Terminator 2 appeals to more people than, say, Tokyo Story. But I'll give you one guess to tell me which is the better film.

CitizenGeek wrote:There's no way Cowboy Bebop is better than Evangelion, or, indeed, most of the series in that top 10. Cowboy Bebop is outstanding, but it's not as almighty as many suggest. The comedy in the series is often cringe-inducing-ly childish thanks to Ed, it's episodic nature means very few plots harness the potential they show at the start of the episode and the music (excluding the OP and ED) are far from Yoko Kanno's best work. That said, I found Cowboy Bebop immensely enjoyable, however it most certainly does not deserve the number 1 position, especially over stuff like Evangelion.
QFFT.

Cowboy Bebop is all style and little substance. Well made, but with little depth. Extremely enjoyable, but ultimately vacuous. It's the equivalent of many of Tarantino's films. And don't get me wrong, he's a great director, but he's a better stylist than anything. His films don't have much substance beyond the craft.

NGE, however, succeeds on levels that Bebop doesn't even touch. It's equally as stylish, but there's substance there as well. Not only well made, but with a ton of depth behind the craft. Not only enjoyable, but artistically relevant in ways no other anime has ever been.

If you're going for mass appeal and pure enjoyment, Bebop's your pick. NGE is more than great entertainment, it's great art. And great art kicks entertainment's ass every day and twice on Thursday (why Thursday? I don't know. Ask art.)
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Postby Sachi » Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:01 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:It's the equivalent of many of Tarantino's films. And don't get me wrong, he's a great director, but he's a better stylist than anything. His films don't have much substance beyond the craft.


agreed
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Postby BobBQ » Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:57 pm

I object to the implication that any given anime must be a megaton mindfuck in order to qualify for greatness.

Sure, Bebop doesn't have the Hedgehog's Dilemma, but it does have a hell of a lot more common sense and internal continuity than NGE.

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Postby thewayneiac » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:54 pm

Cool! I've seen 31 of these.

The problem with lists like these is that too many people can't distinguish between "best" and "favorite". Anyway,

Too low on list:

Escaflowne
Kino's Journey (way too low on list)
Cardcaptor Sakura
Urusei Yatsura

Missing from list:
Angelic Layer
Maison Ikkoku

It is a CRIME that Maison Ikkoku is not on this list. What were they thinking?! Takahashi's greatest.

Too high on list:

Cowboy Beebop.
Macross Plus

These are two of my favorite shows, but better than Grave of the Fireflies and Totoro? No Way!

FLCL is also too high for the same reason.
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Postby BrikHaus » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:57 pm

BobBQ wrote:I object to the implication that any given anime must be a megaton mindfuck in order to qualify for greatness.

Sure, Bebop doesn't have the Hedgehog's Dilemma, but it does have a hell of a lot more common sense and internal continuity than NGE.

Thank you, Bob. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
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Postby Defectron » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:50 pm

It is a CRIME that Maison Ikkoku is not on this list. What were they thinking?! Takahashi's greatest.


Personally I think urusei yatsura is her best but then again I havent seen maison ikkoku yet so we'll have to wait and see there.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject:
Cool! I've seen 31 of these.

The problem with lists like these is that too many people can't distinguish between "best" and "favorite". Anyway,

Too low on list:

Escaflowne
Kino's Journey (way too low on list)
Cardcaptor Sakura


I dunno I didn't like what I saw of card captor, but then again that was the dub. Escaflowne was good, but I wouldnt say it was so great that its around the top of the list either.


That's a rather arbitrary distinction. Mass appeal is no reflection of quality, and if anything it's usually a sign of crappiness.


That's another thing I've been telling people. Other peoples opinions should not determine if you think somethings good or not, thats something only you can decide on your own.

Sure, Bebop doesn't have the Hedgehog's Dilemma, but it does have a hell of a lot more common sense and internal continuity than NGE.


Well in terms of technical quality Bebop might be better, but I think eva would score higher in some of the other areas.
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Postby TriLink » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:01 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:
TriLink12 wrote:And frankly Cowboy Bebop does a better job of this than EVA (not to mention the ending dosen't make me wanna OD on Vicodin).
Terminator 2 appeals to more people than, say, Tokyo Story. But I'll give you one guess to tell me which is the better film.

I've never seen Tokyo Story, and I LOVE Terminator 2, so...

*ahem*

What's wrong with wanting a little mindless fun every now and then? In the same way that EVA's great for it's "mindfucks" (thank you Bob), shows like Bebop are great because their fun; nothing more. They may not be uber serious, but their art just the same. And holding them in less esteem than other shows because of that is just silly.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:42 pm

BobBQ wrote:I object to the implication that any given anime must be a megaton mindfuck in order to qualify for greatness.
It doesn't, and no film does either. Watch Tokyo Story; no mindfuck, just a quiet story that's easily one of the top 10 films ever made. What anything must have to be great (anime, film, literature, music) is some kind of depth and relevance beyond superficial entertainment.

BobBQ wrote:Sure, Bebop doesn't have the Hedgehog's Dilemma, but it does have a hell of a lot more common sense and internal continuity than NGE.
Bebop makes common sense? Lol. There's as much in it that defies all logic as much as NGE. With NGE most is explained through its wonky version of metaphysical science. But with Bebop they're like "sure, there's this lobster that sat in a fridge too long and spoiled and an evil biological creature was born from it. Sure, yeah, ok."

Bebop makes sense because we're never asked to question anything like in NGE.
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Postby Defectron » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:51 pm

Bebop makes common sense? Lol. There's as much in it that defies all logic as much as NGE. With NGE most is explained through its wonky version of metaphysical science. But with Bebop they're like "sure, there's this lobster that sat in a fridge too long and spoiled and an evil biological creature was born from it. Sure, yeah, ok."


Well actually the lobster story isn't one of the things I lump in that. The lobster was raised on a planet that wasn't earth so I just assumed that it was just a native alien creature of that planet that got inside the lobster and grew in it after Spike got it.

If you want to nitpick bebop, stuff like how they smoke in space without causing environment hazards in the ship or how they colonized at least the entire solar system in less then 70 years are more nitpick worthy. Though these things I count as only small blows against technical quality since they'll usually only bother people who really like to nitpick. Eva has some of those too like why Jetalone has a handle on its back for unit 01 to grab.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:00 am

Defectron wrote:Eva has some of those too like why Jetalone has a handle on its back for unit 01 to grab.

If I was going to nitpick NGE for something it would be the nature of the Angels. I don't care how advaced the FAR were there is no way the Angels should share so much of their genetic code with us. Don't even get me started on Lilith being the same species as us...
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:06 am

Defectron wrote: That's another thing I've been telling people. Other peoples opinions should not determine if you think somethings good or not, thats something only you can decide on your own.

While I don't think others' opinions should determine your taste, I do think it's healthy to try and understand why people like something. Especially with classic films they tend to be little like what mainstream films are, so it's helpful if you understand the language, so to speak.

TriLink12 wrote:I've never seen Tokyo Story, and I LOVE Terminator 2, so...
I love Terminator 2 as well. It's a great film, but Tokyo Story is a deserved classic. I must say that there's never been a film that I finished and immediately felt like doing something good, but I immediately called my parents to tell them I loved them after that.

TriLink12 wrote:What's wrong with wanting a little mindless fun every now and then? In the same way that EVA's great for it's "mindfucks" (thank you Bob), shows like Bebop are great because their fun; nothing more. They may not be uber serious, but their art just the same. And holding them in less esteem than other shows because of that is just silly.
There's nothing wrong with mindless fun, but mindless fun is never going to be profound, and that's the price you pay. Just like so often the greatest art isn't enjoyable because it evokes other, stronger feelings than just acting as an amusing diversion for your mind. It's a trade-off, but history has shown that art long out-lasts entertainment. One reason that is is that art changes as you change. And indeed, what NGE "means" at any given time depends on where I am in life. Great art is expression of artists and reflections of the audience. And it's because of this mirror that the audience is sometimes forced to examine their own lives. Great entertainment stops when you finish with it, great art has continued effects long after that. It rewards patience, and study, and discussion. With great art you get back what you put in. Since entertainment requires little to no participation on the viewer's part, there's not much to get out of it that's relevant beyond the fun.

They both have their place, but there is so little great art compared to great entertainment that when I find a work that I consider great are it makes me rather dismissive of the shallowness of entertainment.

Defectron wrote:
Eva has some of those too like why Jetalone has a handle on its back for unit 01 to grab.
I assume that would be a handle for a machine to grab during construction. I'm not even really talking about being nit-picky, but just that Bebop is no less guilty than NGE of non-sensical plot devices. And that's ok because with sci-fi there's always a bit of a "suspend disbelief" that comes along with it.
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Postby BobBQ » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:26 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Bebop makes common sense? Lol. There's as much in it that defies all logic as much as NGE.

Pay attention to the hostage scene in Ballad of Fallen Angels. That's pretty damned sensible, I'd say.

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Postby BrikHaus » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:29 am

CitizenGeek wrote:There's no way Cowboy Bebop is better than Evangelion, or, indeed, most of the series in that top 10. Cowboy Bebop is outstanding, but it's not as almighty as many suggest.

Not everyone thinks it should be number one, I can understand that. But I think the majority would believe it deserves a spot somewhere in the top ten.

The comedy in the series is often cringe-inducing-ly childish thanks to Ed, it's episodic nature means very few plots harness the potential they show at the start of the episode

There is a lot of subtle humor found in the character interactions throughout the series. It can be adult and mature. Ed just happens to be the loudmouth. Perhaps you should take a second look?

Also, what is this "plot" you speak of? This series is all about the characters. Each episode sheds slightly more light on each member of the crew, and by the end they are well fleshed out. I'd rather have interesting, dynamic characters, whose motivations I can understand, rather than a traditional Point A to Point B storyline.

and the music (excluding the OP and ED) are far from Yoko Kanno's best work.

Good luck finding other people to agree with that statement.

however it most certainly does not deserve the number 1 position, especially over stuff like Evangelion.

Evangelion is overrated.
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Postby chee » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:33 am

RUN, BRIKHAUS, RUN!! THEY'LL KILL YOU!!


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