Now and Then, Here and There

[Alaska Slim]

melodrama.

... Not the right context man.

Melodrama is getting worked up over little things like;"Oh no, my car's got a flat!" or "WHO TOOK THE LAST SLICE Of BREAD AND DIDN'T THROW THE F*CKING BAG AWAY?!?!"

I can agree the tone can be overbearing, but at no time whatsoever was the drama over little things. It's over kidnapping, rape, murder, and that, unlike Shinji, who at least gets the courtesy of killing by proxy; these kids, many younger than him, have to go out and end people in person. Of course, that can only happen when they aren't simply being "ended" in scores themselves.

[Oz]

My understanding of melodrama's definition is different. It's about extreme emotions/reactions regardless of the cause (be it small or big). It's not even a bad thing in itself, but NTHT never took a genuine break from it. It also doesn't help that the protagonist goes around shouting for RARA RUUUUUU most of the time.

[Bagheera]

My understanding of melodrama's definition is different. It's about extreme emotions/reactions regardless of the cause (be it small or big). It's not even a bad thing in itself, but NTHT never took a genuine break from it. It also doesn't help that the protagonist goes around shouting for RARA RUUUUUU most of the time.

While that's apt for Shu and definitely for Hamdo I don't think it fits any of the other characters. In fact, I've been impressed by the amount of subtlety most of them have displayed over the course of the show. Abelia and Nabuca (with honorable mentions to Sara and Boo) were particularly notable in this regard. Even Hamdo, as melodramatic as he was, had a surprising amount of stuff going on beneath the melodrama. The show does a lot with non-verbals.

[Oz]

I'd like to get a concrete example of that since my memory is so rusty.

[Bagheera]

It's all over the place. Most of the conflict between Nabuca and Tabool is non-verbal, and Hamdo's insanity is usally expressed in ways other than words (or in how something is said vs. what's actually said; the interplay between him and Abelia is very good). Nabuca's state of mind is probably the best example, though; he keeps saying the right things, being a good little soldier, but the conflict within him couldn't be more obvious. This applies to Abelia as well, albeit to a lesser extent (I'm still wondering why she didn't shoot Hamdo in the head ages ago; it's clear she's no fanatic, and she knows he's mad, so what's keeping her loyal to him?).

[Defectron]

It's all over the place. Most of the conflict between Nabuca and Tabool is non-verbal, and Hamdo's insanity is usally expressed in ways other than words (or in how something is said vs. what's actually said; the interplay between him and Abelia is very good). Nabuca's state of mind is probably the best example, though; he keeps saying the right things, being a good little soldier, but the conflict within him couldn't be more obvious. This applies to Abelia as well, albeit to a lesser extent (I'm still wondering why she didn't shoot Hamdo in the head ages ago; it's clear she's no fanatic, and she knows he's mad, so what's keeping her loyal to him?).

I was under the impression Abelia was in love with him. Yeah I think she could have better tastes...

[Xard]

... Not the right context man.

Melodrama is getting worked up over little things like;"Oh no, my car's got a flat!" or "WHO TOOK THE LAST SLICE Of BREAD AND DIDN'T THROW THE F*CKING BAG AWAY?!?!"

a) this is not definition of melodrama
b) melodarma is not necessarily a negative description though that's how it is often used
c) this anime is definetly melodramatic

It's in ridiculously high intensity mode in terms of emotions most of the time, most of the characters are stereotypical (very intentional in case of MC) and the show is very much about interpersonal conflicts which fits perfectly the definition:

A drama, such as a play, film, or television program, characterized by exaggerated emotions, stereotypical characters, and interpersonal conflicts


In particular Hamdo and his histrionic antics and a lot of the drama revolving around or caused by them is very melodramatic.


edit: man, I can't believe that was my initial reaction to RA RA RUUUUUU: The Anime

[Bagheera]

I'm not sure that's apt, Xard. I'd call most of the characters archetypes vs. stereotypes, and I don't think the emotions et al. are exaggerated most of the time.

But anyway, now that I've seen it all, I stand by my initial assessment: Holy shit. The last two episodes were absolutely brutal. In the end, though, my central issue with the show remains unresolved: I just can't bring myself to give a shit about Lala Ru. She's easily one of the most boring characters in history. Thankfully, Sara, Nabuca, and Abelia more than made up for her lack.

Also, kudos to the show for the way it handled Shu's reaction to the shooting in episode 12. I was afraid he'd get all violent and shit, but what we got instead was both believable and appropriate.

[Xard]

I'm not sure that's apt, Xard. I'd call most of the characters archetypes vs. stereotypes, and I don't think the emotions et al. are exaggerated most of the time.

Stereotypical characters are pretty much always also archetypal so it doesn't really matter. I think the whole show is very emotion-centric in how it handles its drama and issues and not subtle at all to get its messages across: the basic premise of the show and throwing the hapless MC into this world of grimdark is very heavy handed in itself.

I'd say Now and Then, Here and There is almost as heavyhanded as Eva in its own way


Of course it's been three years since I saw the film but apart from the Girl Who Got Raped drama (which I think was best handled part of the series) I found it to be very blunt and "emotional" series. It's kinda telling that today what sticks to me the best is MC's whole retarded RA RA RUUUUUUUUU RA RA RUUUUUUUU thing and MC's extreme antics


So, anyway. After initially finishing the series I really appraised it high due to its emotional impact that made me overlook its shortcomings for a while but over time and having talked with more critical viewers (jimbo, mostly) my assesment calmed down somewhat. It's still good series in my eyes but also flawed and very emotionally manipulative. I have a habit of chomping down on shit like that and thus it usually takes time after viewing before I can properly assest such series. NTHT falls into same category as Air and AnoHana for me, in that respect.

Though it's easily better than either of those


I agree about Lala Ru but for me the biggest problem was the main character. The gap between him and the setting was just too big and I found the way he was written VERY obnoxious. I hated the guy's guts from the start nearly up to final episode

[Bagheera]

Stereotypical characters are pretty much always also archetypal so it doesn't really matter.

I disagree. A stereotype is a caricature, while an archetype is a valid, basic trope. The two might overlap at times but they're not the same.

Of course it's been three years since I saw the film but apart from the Girl Who Got Raped drama (which I think was best handled part of the series) I found it to be very blunt and "emotional" series. It's kinda telling that today what sticks to me the best is MC's whole retarded RA RA RUUUUUUUUU RA RA RUUUUUUUU thing and MC's extreme antics

I agree re: the annoying main character, but I also think Nabuca's arc was handled very well. I actually don't think it was over the top at all -- it could have been, but it wasn't. It played the situation about as straight as it could given the circumstances, and we never got anything overwrought from any of 'em.

Now that I think about it I'm not even sure Hamdo qualifies; his was a very good portrayal of insanity IMO. That leaves Lala Ru and Shu, both of whom were stereotypes and were very annoying.

So, anyway. After initially finishing the series I really appraised it high due to its emotional impact that made me overlook its shortcomings for a while but over time and having talked with more critical viewers (jimbo, mostly) my assesment calmed down somewhat. It's still good series in my eyes but also flawed and very emotionally manipulative. I have a habit of chomping down on shit like that and thus it usually takes time after viewing before I can properly assest such series. NTHT falls into same category as Air and AnoHana for me, in that respect.

How is it emotionally manipulative? I'm not disputing your point, but I'd like to hear more re: your reasoning. I mean, do you think it's possible to deal with these issues without being emotionally manipulative? If so, can you point to some examples?

I agree about Lala Ru but for me the biggest problem was the main character. The gap between him and the setting was just too big and I found the way he was written VERY obnoxious. I hated the guy's guts from the start nearly up to final episode

I didn't hate him, but I agree otherwise. I thought Nabuca, Abelia, and Sara (and to a lesser extent Hamdo) were easily the most interesting parts of the story. Even having seen it all, though, I still don't understand Abelia's attachment to Hamdo; maybe she does love him, but I still don't understand why. Some backstory there would have been nice.

[DevRei17]

Count me in the same camp as Xard: I was blown away by it at first but after letting it set in I realized what a trite, manipulative piece of drivel it really was.

@Bagherra "How is emotionally manipulative?" - Speaking for myself, I felt none of it was genuine. All the "sad" bits of this show had the effect of being arbitrarily sad. No different from those manufactered Hollywood Oscar bait films. As our very own BrikHaus would say, it was chock full of "YOUR SUPPOSED TO BE CRYING HERE! ISN'T THIS SO SAD???!!!"

[Bagheera]

Count me in the same camp as Xard: I was blown away by it at first but after letting it set in I realized what a trite, manipulative piece of drivel it really was.

That's not really what he said . . .

@Bagherra "How is emotionally manipulative?" - Speaking for myself, I felt none of it was genuine. All the "sad" bits of this show had the effect of being arbitrarily sad. No different from those manufactered Hollywood Oscar bait films. As our very own BrikHaus would say, it was chock full of "YOUR SUPPOSED TO BE CRYING HERE! ISN'T THIS SO SAD???!!!"

I don't understand. Everything in any given show is arbitrary and manufactured to provoke a given response in the audience. That's how anime and film and storytelling in general work. But given the general premise (child soldiers in a post-apocalyptic society) how could it be all that different than it was? The only real variable there is Hamdo's madness. I'm not sure you could tone down the rest without throwing the premise out the window.

[DevRei17]

What I mean't by 'arbitrary' was its emotion response, not setting or anything of that sort. All the sad elements of the show strike me as trite; They have the, again, arbitrary feelings of being sad. It feels manufactured to 'pull' at the heartstrings of the audience in the sloppiest, and in some ways, insultingly possible.

re:Xard's comments
As far as I can tell, he had very similar thoughts to my own. Am I missing something?

[Bagheera]

What I mean't by 'arbitrary' was its emotion response, not setting or anything of that sort. All the sad elements of the show strike me as trite; They have the, again, arbitrary feelings of being sad. It feels manufactured to 'pull' at the heartstrings of the audience in the sloppiest, and in some ways, insultingly possible.

Can you give examples? None of it seemed arbitrary to me at all. I mean, we're talking about children being pressed into military service. What did you think would happen?

re:Xard's comments
As far as I can tell, he had very similar thoughts to my own. Am I missing something?

How about:

It's still good series in my eyes but also flawed and very emotionally manipulative. I have a habit of chomping down on shit like that and thus it usually takes time after viewing before I can properly assest such series. NTHT falls into same category as Air and AnoHana for me, in that respect.

Though it's easily better than either of those.

He's saying its flawed but still a good series. Not quite what you're claiming.

[DevRei17]

The use of children soldiers for one thing. Before you start pointing out that child soldiers actually exist and this series is trying yadda, yadda, let me provide this point: children are easy targets. Just like cute animals, children getting blown to pieces is a cheap way to get BAWWW brownie points from the sympathy brigade.

re: Xard - I took from it Xardie's a fan of the Sarah storyline but not much else.

[Bagheera]

The use of children soldiers for one thing. Before you start pointing out that child soldiers actually exist and this series is trying yadda, yadda, let me provide this point: children are easy targets. Just like cute animals, children getting blown to pieces is a cheap way to get BAWWW brownie points from the sympathy brigade.

But that's nothing to do with how the show was written and shot; all you're talking about here is the basic premise, and that says nothing whatsoever about the quality of the actual show.

[DevRei17]

But that's nothing to do with how the show was written and shot; all you're talking about here is the basic premise, and that says nothing whatsoever about the quality of the actual show.

If I may be a cheap bastard, let me use a forum post I found on ANN that sums up my thoughts on the show better than I can explain:

There used to be a time when I would be swayed by how "dark" and "emotionally gut-wrenching" a show is, but in retrospect I think NTHT tried WAY too hard to be meaningful. Contrary to popular belief, writing dark and emotionally wrenching stories is the easiest thing to do. Need to get a rise out of the audience? Just think of doing something horrible! I know! Let's take this sweet little girl and have her go through some truly heinous crap. Want to get the tears flowing? Let's have a bunch of these kids die in truly horrible ways!

I'm not against the use of these things to manipulate audiences once in a while but when you do it for basically the entire show you're sort of making it obvious that you're basically saying, "Cry! Cry! This is really bad, isn't it? This is like so emotionally DRAINING ain't it?"

I actually put this show in the guilty pleasure section. I for one like that kind of manipulative grim crap, but to say that you're seeing some subtle, organic writing here that's award-worthy is really pushing it. It's like those films that win Oscars because they're the best at jerking tears out of the audience (terms of endearment, anyone?). It DOESN'T make them masterpieces.

---

I'm judging NTHT strictly on its artistic merits, not on its "real life" social significance or any of that. The writers take the easiest ways of evoking tears or shock. I don't think it takes a lot of effort to do that. Some people think that "emotional assault = quality" but when you're resorting to assaultive tactics every 5 minutes, you're just trying too hard to push buttons. You might as well come to my house and wave an onion in front of my face if you want to make me cry, it's just as subtle too.

Yes. Every movie, show or TV is manipulative to a degree. But some do it with more subtlety, or more restraint. If making a masterpiece was as easy as showing girls getting raped and child soldiers getting brutally murdered in a succession of scenes and episodes, then everyone would do it.

[Bagheera]

If I may be a cheap bastard, let me use a forum post I found on ANN that sums up my thoughts on the show better than I can explain:

Sorry, that doesn't help. You're just reiterating what you said above without showing how it's true.

Me, I don't think they took the easy way out at pretty much any point. We never actually saw Sara get raped. We didn't see kids getting killed until the last two episodes (in fact, as I recall the only ones who actually died onscreen before the endgame were the assassins). We never saw Shu getting tortured. In fact, the most annoying bits of the show were the bits that weren't played for shock value -- i.e. Shu's attitude and Lala Ru's generally annoying passivity.

What we did see was the aftermath of Sara's rapes, which was handled very well. We also saw the conflict in Nabuca both through his interactions with Tabool and Boo and his indecision over his actions (during the kidnappings, the hunt for Shu, etc). And we saw Abelia's frustration with serving the whims of a mad king. I don't see anything over the top in any of this, and this was pretty much the whole story. The only other bits were Shu running around shouting "Lala Ru!" ad nauseum. On, and we had the two boring kids doing a Tremors impression in the middle of the desert. There's was that, too.

So no, not seeing your argument here. That's why I asked for examples to begin with.

[Oz]

In my opinion the premise (and the story in general) is manipulative because it plunges into such touchy territory. From what I remember one of the worst examples of NTHT's manipulative nature is the ED which kept cheaply feasting on the emotions of the audience. After all the disturbing scenarios in the episode itself we are treated to a haunting lullaby that basically says "look at how miserable we are boohoo": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbhwr4u3 ... re=related

[Bagheera]

That might be reasonable, Oz. I never noticed because I skipped past it fairly consistently.

I have a hard time buying the notion that it's automatically manipulative on account of its subject matter, though. That suggests there's no way to tell a story of this sort without blatantly manipulating your audience and I really don't think that's fair.