Females in Gundam (All Its Incarnations)

[Mr. Tines]

I would've been happier had Four stayed with Kamille rather than Fa, for instance

While Four has that fey quality that makes for waifu material, it was pretty clear that she was going to get killed just to maximally screw up Kamille -- Four, like Lala before her occupied the role that Kaworu would later do in NGE.

[Fireball]

Asami you don't have to quote an entire post just to agree with it. Please spoiler tag quoted images the next time.

(and on the upside, Tomino does largely avoid the trap of the three female fates -- I can't remember any cases of sexual assault or pregnancy throughout any of it, and he does have female pilots in frontline roles aloneside the guys. It's just that in most cases they're wimpy and have crappy stories. But given Char's mother complex, well . . .)

Not sure if you have seen Victory but I'm tagging this for Xard since he hasn't finished it yet.

SPOILER: Show

Marbet marries, gets pregnant in Victory and is one of the few to actually survive.

Generally V had a strong motherly theme going on.

Queen Maria for example is portrayed as an almost biblical doppelganger with plenty of sympathy and genuine itentions but gets manipulated by men for their war games. She is pretty much the core of Tomino' self-proclaimed feminism. Then you have Üso's mother and of course foster mom Shakti too.


You also have to difference if someone just likes writing hateful characters or if the writer actually hates his characters. Tomino is said to honestly believe women are the ones to save humanity because they can give birth and what not, I'd say compared to most of the people in the field, he's actually downright progressive.


As for Haman, personally, I'm okay with the way she was treated in ZZ. They could have given her more screentime and the Judau infatuation was often awkward at best but it makes sense to try win him over as she did the same with Char. Though I would have felt insulted if she had made some heel face turn and end up as another one in Judau's harem. No, I liked it. She gave him the finger and ended it like she lived - unrepentant, fierce and prideful.

[schwarzstahlhelm1993]

She gave him the finger and ended it like she lived - unrepentant, fierce and prideful.

^ THIS. No one seems to understand her better than you, Fireball.

I tend to think that Tomino is overall good when it comes to females: with the exception of a few, most are likeable, sexy and badass or interesting. Some, like Frau Bow, have no need to pilot a mobile suit to be cool neither. Then there's the "leaders", like Sayla and Audrey, who are willing to sacrifice even themselves and their own integrity for the sake of those they love and the better of humanity. It is in my personal opinion that UC is as capable of portraying females like any other universe, with the sole exception that not all of them are given fairy tale endings. Usually. But that doesn't mean Tomino hates women or anything. And if you look at Turn A, Tomino's portrayal of females actually improved, perhaps, in a little way. In any case, SEED would be the one portraying women in an old fashioned way, considering how Lacus turns into the ideal Nadeshiko Yamato wife for Kira, and most of the girls are just too moe, too pretty. They don't really have much going on, with the exception of a few moments, and most of them suck at piloting too.


Off topic: I hate writing text blocks.

[Bagheera]

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of Victory when I wrote that. UC to me is the block between MSG and CCA, for better or worse. F91 and Victory are just so far removed from it that I find it hard to consider them parts of the same setting.

[schwarzstahlhelm1993]

F91 and Victory are just so far removed from it that I find it hard to consider them parts of the same setting.

Actually, F91 still had the traditional UC feel, at least IMO. Victory was the one that felt the more removed, as you say.

[Bagheera]

I honestly don't know why all of the male Gundam fans have such lust for her. It's just beyond me.

I'm not clear on the confusion. Here's hoping I can revive this constructively . . .

Gundam Unicorn Episode 1  SPOILER: Show

In episode 1 she proves to be a competent, if ruthless, pilot. You don't seem to care for the fact she relies heavily on her newtype abilities, but . . . she's a newtype. That's what they do. No, she's not Full Frontal, but she's more than a match for most anyone else -- your claim that she's somehow subpar just doesn't match what we see on the screen. So, mecha geeks like her for that.

Gundam Unicorn Episode 2  SPOILER: Show

In episode 2 her conversation with Banagher reveals that she's not just some ruthless monster doing what she's told, and that she's put a fair amount of thought into who she is and why she's doing what she's doing. She's not just some moe character with a sob story -- she's actually a fairly bright young woman who understands keenly what war has done to both her and her people, and who also recognizes the fact that it isn't justified. That's frankly pretty amazing, and a very rare thing to find in an anime character with her background (such characters are normally dominated by thoughts of revenge and such, a la Loni Garvey). In the process she also offers another surprising bit of insight when she comments (intelligently) on the role of religion both in society in general and among the Zeon in particular. We rarely see this addressed in anime, let alone in such a sophisticated fashion, so I give her major props for that.

Gundam Unicorn Episode 3  SPOILER: Show

In episode 3 we learn that she's a victim of Neo Zeon, one of the Ples no less, and she gets owned by a suit specifically designed to destroy newtypes. Pretty much anyone (up to and, I suspect, probably even Full Frontal) would get toasted if their suit's weapons were turned against them, so your commentary about her getting whipped by novices is off the mark -- she's getting whipped by a novice piloting a suit specifically designed to destroy her, operating more-or-less independently of its pilot's commands. Her skills as a pilot simply do not enter the picture at that point. Anyway, once she's captured she pulls another unexpected bit of awesome when she saves the life of one of her captors. So yeah, in this episode we do get the start of all of her moe elements (on account of her Ple heritage/victim background), but we also get some sympathy for a capable pilot who got a raw deal (on account of Unicorn bullshit), and an honorable opponent with enough strength of character to save an enemy from needlessly dying.

Gundam Unicorn Episode 4  SPOILER: Show

In episode 4 she's tortured by Vist until she bends to their will. That's not really anything to do with moe, though; in another example of the continuing trend of solid storytelling decisions in Unicorn she's actually treated like any male prisoner would have been -- she isn't raped or molested, and her reprogramming is the result of her Ple heritage rather than anything to do with her gender per se. It's really not surprising to see sympathy for such a character, no matter her background.

Gundam Unicorn Episode 5  SPOILER: Show

In episode 5 she's all brainwashed and shit, but she finally breaks free of her programming to remember who's really important to her. She did this without dying in the process, which is how you can tell Tomino didn't write the thing. Now, if her connection to Zimmerman was the result of Ple bullshit I could see why you might dislike it, but it isn't. He doesn't want her to think of him as her master and he's been quite blunt with her about the matter in the past. But since he treated her like a human being she's stuck on him.

With that said, I can definitely understand your aversion to her background as a sex slave and such (I think that's a rather pointed jab at the fan reaction to the Ples, personally, but that's neither here nor there). As everyone's noticed by now I'm kind of a stick in the mud when it comes to such things. But that said it's a very minor part of her character -- it's background, yes, but the show doesn't milk it at all. It's just a flash of background in ep. 3 and an off comment in her physical exam in ep. 4. Everything else about her background ties in to her pliable nature as a Ple clone. But honestly, I think the fact that she's shaking off the programming and choosing who she wants to be of her own free will speaks volumes for both her character and the writing of the show. She is not a simple victim, nor a crazed Yandere bitch bent on revenge. She is a victimized woman dealing with the fallout of her experiences and trying very hard to move forward and do what she thinks is right for her and her people.

Really, she has an awful lot going for her as a character. I can see why you don't like her, though; using Azula and Haman Karn as data points it seems it's not a matter of humanity or even depth as a character that interests you so much as seeing women in positions of power. And I can certainly understand that -- you have no real interest in women who are passive, manipulated, or otherwise less than awesomely badass. Why you like Asuka in light of this is a mystery to me, as she's pretty adept at self-destruction and has but one shining moment of badass amidst a sea of embarrassment and misery. But a character need not go that route to be compelling, and as long as she does her part to advance the story without falling into tired cliches in the process I'm content to like characters like Marida just fine. I will of course be disappointed if she "dies for her man", as it were, but I don't think that's likely; Zimmerman seems more like a father to her than a lover, and Banagher is so stuck on Mineva (a crying shame IMO; poor Micott never got the chance she deserved!) that throwing Marida into the middle of all of that would just result in a giant mess. If anything I suspect she'll

SPOILER: Show

pull a Char and go after the Vist foundation for brainwashing her, ultimately taking her revenge on that damn harpy and ending the story while Banagher deals with Full Frontal and the silly box.

So that's my take on the whole deal. I think there are far, far better targets for your ire than Marida, and I likewise think you're writing her off without giving her or her capabilities their due. But far be it for me to tell you who you should and shouldn't hate; if you're set on hating the girl that's your lookout. But either way the reasoning you've given so far for doing so is not very sound IMO.

[Asami Sato]

Seems a lot has happened since I left. I've neglected this forum in favor of SMF, it seems.

On topic:

SPOILER: Show

In episode 1 she proves to be a competent, if ruthless, pilot.

SPOILER: Show

She isn't ruthless if some grunt is about to impale her. She was careless and she was only saved because of plot hax.

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You don't seem to care for the fact she relies heavily on her newtype abilities,

Exactly, I don't care, because I honestly don't care about Newtypes in general. The concept about humans evolving into some sort of 'magic space espers', I just don't buy it

but . . . she's a newtype.

They made her a Newtype because she's a woman. If you're a woman in these things, you can't be a good pilot unless you have magic powers.

No, she's not Full Frontal,

Exactly. He kills grunts a lo loco without funnel cheats.

but she's more than a match for most anyone else -- your claim that she's somehow subpar just doesn't match what we see on the screen.

http://www.thatanimeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Gundam-Unicorn-01-19.jpg
So close...

So, mecha geeks like her for that.

They like her because she's a legal Ple/Puru.

Gundam Unicorn Episode 2  SPOILER: Show

In episode 2 her conversation with Banagher reveals that she's not just some ruthless monster doing what she's told,

Not a monster perhaps, more like a robot doing what she's told

Gundam Unicorn Episode 2  SPOILER: Show

and that she's put a fair amount of thought into who she is and why she's doing what she's doing.

Really? She's put thought into her actions? I thought she just mindlessly obeyed orders

Gundam Unicorn Episode 2  SPOILER: Show

She's not just some moe character with a sob story

To troll, or not to troll?

Gundam Unicorn Episode 2  SPOILER: Show

she's actually a fairly bright young woman who understands keenly what war has done to both her and her people, and who also recognizes the fact that it isn't justified.

And yet she keeps fighting

Gundam Unicorn Episode 2  SPOILER: Show

That's frankly pretty amazing, and a very rare thing to find in an anime character with her background (such characters are normally dominated by thoughts of revenge and such, a la Loni Garvey).

Yeah, I'm surprised they didn't turn her into that sort of character Still, Damaged Goods Moe will always be Damaged Goods Moe

Gundam Unicorn Episode 2  SPOILER: Show

In the process she also offers another surprising bit of insight when she comments (intelligently) on the role of religion both in society in general and among the Zeon in particular.

Okay, I'll give you that. But it's not like the audience hadn't figured out that by the time we saw that episode

Gundam Unicorn Episode 3  SPOILER: Show

In episode 3 we learn that she's a victim of Neo Zeon,

And yet, she keeps fighting for them Another woman in her position would've dissociated from these bastards as much as possible.

Gundam Unicorn Episode 3  SPOILER: Show

one of the Ples no less,

Fuck the Ples.

Gundam Unicorn Episode 3  SPOILER: Show

and she gets owned by a suit specifically designed to destroy newtypes.

I'll give you that too, then. But then, Full Frontal in episode 2 fared much better than her. I'm telling you, it's because she's a woman. Women can't fare well by themselves, you see! :rollseyes:

Gundam Unicorn Episode 3  SPOILER: Show

Her skills as a pilot simply do not enter the picture at that point.

That's if you take funnel spam as 'skills'

Gundam Unicorn Episode 3  SPOILER: Show

Anyway, once she's captured she pulls another unexpected bit of awesome when she saves the life of one of her captors.

Yeah, because the Federation has never tortured POWs in the past, right? And I mean, since she's a terrorist, she'll receive special treatment too, right?

I'm so smart and so intelligent, I didn't expect the Feddies to torture me or do sick stuff to me

Gundam Unicorn Episode 3  SPOILER: Show

but we also get some sympathy for a capable pilot who got a raw deal (on account of Unicorn bullshit),

Sympathy, perhaps. Frankly, her past is quite horrible. But I also find it exploitative

Gundam Unicorn Episode 3  SPOILER: Show

and an honorable opponent with enough strength of character to save an enemy from needlessly dying.

Where's the ruthlesness in that?

Gundam Unicorn Episode 4  SPOILER: Show

In episode 4 she's tortured by Vist until she bends to their will.

She should've expected that when she saved that fat guy.

Gundam Unicorn Episode 4  SPOILER: Show

she isn't raped or molested,

I'm pretty sure those lab coat men did at least [i]something to her.

Gundam Unicorn Episode 5  SPOILER: Show

She did this without dying in the process,

I lost ten Euros on that bet.

Gundam Unicorn Episode 5  SPOILER: Show

which is how you can tell Tomino didn't write the thing.

New Tomino would handle her character better

Gundam Unicorn Episode 5  SPOILER: Show

Now, if her connection to Zimmerman was the result of Ple bullshit I could see why you might dislike it, but it isn't.

How do you know it isn't? A vulnerable, young attractive girl, who follows your every command, and who reminds you of your daughter?

With that said, I can definitely understand your aversion to her background as a sex slave and such (I think that's a rather pointed jab at the fan reaction to the Ples, personally, but that's neither here nor there).

Bingo.

But that said it's a very minor part of her character

Are you sure? Her whole character, from position to personality, depends on that background of hers.

It's just a flash of background in ep. 3

A two-minute, painful flash if you ask me. It was unbearable.

She is a victimized woman dealing with the fallout of her experiences and trying very hard to move forward and do what she thinks is right for her and her people.

Again, fighting for those that basically turned her into what she is right now, and left her to her fate isn't a sign of progress

Really, she has an awful lot going for her as a character.

using Azula and Haman Karn as data points it seems it's not a matter of humanity or even depth as a character that interests you so much as seeing women in positions of power.

Bravo. Bingo. Exactly. Better a sociopathic Empress than a Damaged Goods, 'sensitive' character that otakus later use as their own fetish

And I can certainly understand that -- you have no real interest in women who are passive, manipulated, or otherwise less than awesomely badass.

Bingo again. Submissive robots, gtfo.

Why you like Asuka in light of this is a mystery to me, as she's pretty adept at self-destruction and has but one shining moment of badass amidst a sea of embarrassment and misery.

I only like her because of just how tsundere and intimidating she is. She's not a role model or anything

I will of course be disappointed if she "dies for her man",

I bet ten Euros she will

and Banagher is so stuck on Mineva (a crying shame IMO; poor Micott never got the chance she deserved!)

Micott can do better

If anything I suspect she'll

SPOILER: Show

pull a Char and go after the Vist foundation for brainwashing her, ultimately taking her revenge on that damn harpy and ending the story while Banagher deals with Full Frontal and the silly box.

She'd be too badass for the otakus. She'd intimidate them too much and so they'll instead

SPOILER: Show

make her die a horrible death at the hands of Full Frontal or shielding Banagher or whatever.

You know, the usual

But either way the reasoning you've given so far for doing so is not very sound IMO.

I ridicule myself sometimes for 'hating' fictional characters. Its stupid, but its better than to hate real people, you know?


Why am I in this thread again? I thought I wasn't going to participate it any more. [/img][/spoiler]

[Bagheera]

Geez. Here I put a lot of thought into a coherent response, and what I get is . . . that. Very disappointing. If you're determined to hate her there's nothing anyone can do about it, but as I said your reasoning doesn't hold up.

Re: women have to be netypes to be any good as pilots: Christina Mackenzie would like a word with you. So would Karen Joshua, Aina Saharin and . . . heck, everyone in 08th MST, really. Your beloved Haman Karn will be sitting over there in the corner, whistling innocently and trying not to be noticed.

And at the notion that Haman isn't fetish fuel. I mean srsly, more fanboys wank off to her than ever did to Marida. She's probably right up there with Four, and I'd bet even money she beats the snot out of the Ples in this regard.

In short you're employing an awful lot of doublethink here in an effort to justify your hatred of this character. I agree it's better to hate a cartoon than a real person, but srsly, it's silly.

And ftr, Asuka isn't Tsundere. Shikinami's tsundere, but Asuka's just a fucked up child. And at her being "intimidating."

[Asami Sato]

What I get from replying half asleep.

Re: women have to be netypes to be any good as pilots: Christina Mackenzie would like a word with you. So would Karen Joshua, Aina Saharin and . . . heck, everyone in 08th MST, really. Your beloved Haman Karn will be sitting over there in the corner, whistling innocently and trying not to be noticed.

I never said all women in Gundam need to be Newtypes to be cool. I'm just noting a specific example. If people like Marida, fine. I don't really give a damn anymore

And at the notion that Haman isn't fetish fuel. I mean srsly, more fanboys wank off to her than ever did to Marida. She's probably right up there with Four, and I'd bet even money she beats the snot out of the Ples in this regard.

Fireball loves her, and with good reason. And I wasn't generalizing that all mecha geeks were into Marida.

In short you're employing an awful lot of doublethink here in an effort to justify your hatred of this character.

That usually happens

I agree it's better to hate a cartoon than a real person, but srsly, it's silly.

Agreed.

And ftr, Asuka isn't Tsundere. Shikinami's tsundere, but Asuka's just a fucked up child. And at her being "intimidating."

Whatever.

[Bagheera]

I never said all women in Gundam need to be Newtypes to be cool. I'm just noting a specific example. If people like Marida, fine. I don't really give a damn anymore

Asami . . . girl, c'mon, read your posts. You wrote "They made her a Newtype because she's a woman. If you're a woman in these things, you can't be a good pilot unless you have magic powers." I gave the examples I did because they're female pilots who are cool and aren't newtypes.

(and if Karen Joshua and Chris Mackenzie aren't "cool" I don't want any part of it. I can take or leave Aina, though.)

Fireball loves her, and with good reason. And I wasn't generalizing that all mecha geeks were into Marida.

Well, yeah. She's serious wank fuel, all Newtypey and shit, the works. But what's funny about it is that she also has a troubled childhood, and is eventually compromised by love for the main character of her last show (Judau). She then goes out like a punk, taking her own life rather than deal with the consequences of her actions.

So, that's your idol: ruthless bitch who goes soft and wimps out in the end. The obvious parallels in Marida are what make your hatred of the latter so bewildering.

Whatever.

It's an important distinction, actually. But this isn't the thread for it.

[Twin Drive Sigma Aquarion]

Might as well give my 2 cents about this topic:

Female characters in Gundam exist, most don't pilot any mobile suits and therefore aren't worth a darn like male counterparts that also do not do such thing, those that do have a habit of being mediocre or bad at long range, and none become the main character of an anime. You cannot say much more because much more does not exist. *wipes hands*

[Asami Sato]

gave the examples I did because they're female pilots who are cool and aren't newtypes.

And they are excellent examples. I agree with every single one of them. In fact, considering they are not Newtypes, their feats have more merit than those of many of the protagonists in the series.

(and if Karen Joshua and Chris Mackenzie aren't "cool" I don't want any part of it. I can take or leave Aina, though.)

Oh no, they are cool. Don't let Aina's pretty looks and calm nature fool you: remember Episode 11?

But what's funny about it is that she also has a troubled childhood, and is eventually compromised by love for the main character of her last show (Judau). She then goes out like a punk, taking her own life rather than deal with the consequences of her actions.

^This above statement is proof on why Gundam ZZ is the worst Gundam series.


Anyway, I sent you a PM. That should clear things up.

[Bagheera]

Chris Mackenzie is the best Gundam pilot ever.

But Gundam really needs a female lead. I mean srsly, it's 2012 guys. Let's get with the times, eh?

[Alaska Slim]

^ That may have to do with, as Gimmeabreakman describes, (if not there then somewhere), gender roles sort of reasserting themselves within the Japanese culture.


... Quite honestly, the only recent mecha show with a female lead that comes to mind is Rideback, and I think that lasted just a single cour.

[Bagheera]

... Quite honestly, the only recent mecha show with a female lead that comes to mind is Rideback, and I think that lasted just a single cour.

Yes. It was pretty cool, though; I liked it a lot.

[bobbyfischer's ghost]

^ That may have to do with, as Gimmeabreakman describes, (if not there then somewhere), gender roles sort of reasserting themselves within the Japanese culture.

This maybe true with older couples but most modern couples are at-least aware of the western concept of gender equality so maybe in the near future we will see a strong female lead.

[Alaska Slim]

Yes. It was pretty cool, though; I liked it a lot.

I liked the concept, not so much the execution.

But between it and Metal Wolf Chaos, the Japanese apparently think there's something going in Arizona, besides flash-freezing of corpses and a long-standing tradition that people from there can't become President. Unless they get a mini-mecha and go all out on a one-man campaign of FREEDOM!

[Tankred]

But Gundam really needs a female lead. I mean srsly, it's 2012 guys. Let's get with the times, eh?

There's the manga École du Ciel.

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Mobile_Sui ... le_du_Ciel

[Fireball]

Silly guys, pretending like we never had a girl lead

SPOILER: Show

[bobbyfischer's ghost]

^
I need the brain bleach for this one.


I think you're forgetting Lauren.... I mean Loran.