Reichu Revelations, Part 1: Yui and Kyoko

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

I think I've heard it rendered, "It seems EVA-01 has started moving." But any of these gets the information across better than what BB gave us.

He didn't expect Yui to take the initiative, hmm? What was she going to do, just sit down there until... whatever? Did Gendo even know about the second phase of her plan (which we only learn about at the end of the film)? I kind of wonder exactly WHAT he was expecting of this crazy (in the best possible way) woman who had gone to the trouble of devouring Zeruel's most precious part, not to mention becoming an Eva ("out of Lilith") in the first place.

#24':Gendo : The time remaining to us is short.

Gendo : And, now we don't have the Lance of Longinus that would
prevent us from realizing our hopes.

Gendo : The final Angel will soon appear. When we erase that, our
hopes will come true.

Gendo : Wait a little longer, Yui.
It seems there's a pretty glaring discrepancy between Plan Gendo and Plan Yui...

EDIT Not to mention:Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives.
It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...Doesn't sound like she was planning on having company...

Originally posted on: 08-Jan-2006, 19:38 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Reichu will check out the Japanese for those lines, just for fun.

(EDIT: I'm working on the "Goodbye, Mother" scene. Why does this scene make the Reichu cry so? It ALWAYS makes me cry...)

I suppose what I'm asking here is what exactly the G-man DID have in mind... Well, yeah, the "Eva as ark" crap (which I plan to take another look at soon), but I'm thinking more specifically about the interchange at the end of #19 between Kozo and Gendo. For starters, anyhow.

Originally posted on: 09-Jan-2006, 08:33 GMT

[Ornette [ANF]]

It's also possible that whatever Gendo's plan for starting 3I had nothing to do with Eva-01, meaning it really wouldn't matter if it was inactive the whole time or became active and started mucking about outside. But did he require Eva-01 to be intact before he was finished with his plan? I'm pretty conviced he wasn't aware of Yui's plan after ascension. I wonder if Rei's betrayal was part of Yui's plan?

Originally posted on: 08-Jan-2006, 22:53 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

I doubt it, after all if anything Yui didn't seem to like Rei, when she was in EVA 01 she rejected her, maybe this was because of the similarity to the dummy plug though. In the manga Rei communicates with her telepathicly, but they didn't exactly seem chummy there either.

Originally posted on: 08-Jan-2006, 22:57 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Rei can't have anything to do with Yui's plans, AFAIK, unless Yui somehow "engineered" Rei 1. Well, we don't know how Lilith ended up in there, so, uh, I guess anything's possible? My default leaning is that Rei was unplanned -- an accident that Gendo decided to use for his own purposes. About the only one who Yui ever "relies on", AFAIK, for her own purposes is Shinji, for making the ultimate decision with 3I, but I suppose she has her own reasons for that. Otherwise, she takes things into her own hands (or mouth), while Gendo relies on puppeting others.

Yui rejected Rei in #19 because she was rejecting Gendo and his a$$hole-dom. He even gives us confirmation of this -- "Yup, she's pissed off at me" -- as he knows what his love is trying to let him know.

Originally posted on: 08-Jan-2006, 23:12 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

I just rewatched the directors cut of episode 21-23 and Fuyutski says he made her out of desperation. Just another reason he creeps me out.

Originally posted on: 08-Jan-2006, 23:16 GMT

[OMF [ANF]]

He said that Rei was a product of despairation. Whos despairation is the question.

Originally posted on: 08-Jan-2006, 23:22 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Another line for Reichu to check.

Originally posted on: 08-Jan-2006, 23:34 GMT

[Ark [ANF]]

He said that Rei was a product of despairation. Whos despairation is the question.

I think Gendo's despair at losing his wife.

Fuyutski then says "I suppose it was unreasonable to expect you to forget".

The implication is he created Rei to remind him of Yui.

Originally posted on: 09-Jan-2006, 00:51 GMT

[Ornette [ANF]]

Sorry to bring this back up again

If you take the "ka" at face value, maybe he hadn't counted on Sho doing anything; as I like to point out, he seemed completely indifferent to Shinji's fate in #25', and, as far as we can tell, his scenario for 3I entailed merging with Rei, and 'puppeting' Lilith. I'm not so sure that Sho had any active role at all in his scenario (at least for the initiating Instrumentality phase). Be that as it may, this seems to be yet another case where it pays see what is actually said in the original Japanese script. It's possible that BB's "finally awakened" may not be supported by the context.

I asked a Japanese friend about this line:
"'The Shogouki has started to move.' is a pretty straight translation...."
"The tone and inflection on the 'ka' would make it seem as if this was a rhetorical question. He definitely didn't seem to be asking Rei"

He's under the impression that Gendo wasn't so much wondering why Unit-01 started moving, but more that he was stating it. From this (and a bit of a stretch) I can see where the translators got "finally awakened"

Originally posted on: 09-Jan-2006, 10:57 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

He said that Rei was a product of despairation. Whos despairation is the question.

Um, this scene is not all that ambiguous, if you ask me:
#23'Fuyutsuki:
Rei... She is the product of my despair, and at the same time,
the vessel of your hope even now.
In the end, I suppose it was unreasonable to expect you to forget.
You know, the next time Fuzzy trots out his hilariously wrong-headed assertion that "Rei is not a clone of Yui, in fact, Rei may very well have nothing at all to do with Yui" , we should invite him to try to explain away this scene.

Rei is "the product of (Fuyutsuki's) despair..." because her very existence is a consequence of Yui's Contact Experiment with Unit-01, and the subsequent failed salvage operation; he was every bit as devastated by losing Yui to the EVA as Gendo was (cuz he was in love with her too), even tho he had some intimation of her intent.

"...and at the same time, the vessel of (Gendo's) hope even now", because she was the means ("You have existed for this day"; "Take me to Yui's side") by which, having failed to get her back physically, he would be re-united with her by initiating 3I and Instrumentality.

"In the end, I suppose it was unreasonable to expect you to forget" He is talking about Yui here, of course:
#21Naoko:
You still remember Yui!#15Gendo:
There are some things a man must never forget; Yui taught me about the irreplacable things..."

Originally posted on: 09-Jan-2006, 14:04 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Rei is "the product of (Fuyutsuki's) despair..." because her very existence is a consequence of Yui's Contact Experiment with Unit-01, and the subsequent failed salvage operation; he was every bit as devastated by losing Yui to the EVA as Gendo was (cuz he was in love with her too), even tho he had some intimation of her intent.

"Some"?

Originally posted on: 09-Jan-2006, 14:21 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

"Some"?

"Fine ambiguity for effect"

Originally posted on: 09-Jan-2006, 14:24 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Ahhh, classic Reichu soundbyte there.

Well, finished the "Goodbye, Mother" scene. You can check it out here. Guess I'll do the Gendo talking to EVA-01 scene next, since it's short and fast.

Speaking of Yui-sama, Reichu wants feedback over here, <Cartman>goddammit</Cartman>!

Originally posted on: 09-Jan-2006, 15:48 GMT

[Dr. Nick [ANF]]

Now, I'm not exactly clear on this: Are you suggesting that Y&K did or did not know about the Soul Suckage phenomenon?

In short: they knew the suckage was possible to achieve, but I'm not sure if they knew about all the details involved (Yui was a pioneer, after all). By this I mean "the vacuum effect", i.e. the way an empty Eva automatically sucks the soul of a person trying to perform contact experiment with it, regardless of vis willingness. Would Kyoko's CE had taken place if Kozo had known 100% sure what was going to happen? Wouldn't he have warned those arrogant Teutons?

Originally posted on: 09-Jan-2006, 17:55 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

Probably not, I don't think he was going to open his mouth about anything, especially admitting a potential failure. SEELE had their eye on him, and if he appeared to even know about the "soul suckage" they could have suspected him of sabotaging it. And Yui said she was "with SEELE" indicating she was a member of SEELE, I doubt the members of SEELE were happy about losing one of their own to begin with. Why couldn't it have been Peirre instead.

Originally posted on: 09-Jan-2006, 19:00 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Actually, there are intimations (however subtle) in the Ashinoko Flashback that Yui had been blacklisted herself. She had served her purpose, so Seele really didn't need her anymore, especially since they might have caught wind of her perfidious plans. An oldie but goodie.

By this I mean "the vacuum effect", i.e. the way an empty Eva automatically sucks the soul of a person trying to perform contact experiment with it, regardless of vis willingness.

OOC, have we been basing the Secret of Soul Suckage entirely on Kyoko's case? Because I think that if this principle applies, it explains VERY nicely why they need the kids of these women as pilots. Since none of the big cheeses had any intention of letting these "primal beasts" control themselves, of course you're going to need someone else to "pilot" the thing. Enter MPB and Eva-Pilot synchronization. But that's a topic for the relevant thread, whenever I get my thoughts together.

Originally posted on: 09-Jan-2006, 19:58 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

So SEELE blacklists their own? Interesting thought, I wonder what one needs to do to piss them off enough to get killed. Wonder if they have an opening, I want a hovering monolith of my own.

Originally posted on: 09-Jan-2006, 21:33 GMT

[Ornette [ANF]]

Probably not, I don't think he was going to open his mouth about anything, especially admitting a potential failure. SEELE had their eye on him, and if he appeared to even know about the "soul suckage" they could have suspected him of sabotaging it. And Yui said she was "with SEELE" indicating she was a member of SEELE, I doubt the members of SEELE were happy about losing one of their own to begin with. Why couldn't it have been Peirre instead.

Seems they (and the public) were aware of some kind of accident involving Yui. He definitely wasn't going to open his mouth about the conflicting plans that Yui had. I'm not sure how much SEELE knew with regards to the actual details of the contact experiment or the possibilities of getting ones soul sucked into an Eva. Perhaps SEELE knew it all (sans Yui's plans) and these newspaper articles is just what SEELE allowed the media to print

OOC, have we been basing the Secret of Soul Suckage entirely on Kyoko's case? Because I think that if this principle applies, it explains VERY nicely why they need the kids of these women as pilots.

I've always wondered which CE took place first. I've always thought that Yui;s CE took place first since it seemed she was the head of Project E and knew the most about this kind of stuff. But having Kyoko's CE take place first seems to make more sense, it would help explain the apprehension they have for Yui's CE.

Originally posted on: 09-Jan-2006, 22:38 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

What apprehension?

Originally posted on: 10-Jan-2006, 00:56 GMT