Reichu's Revelations: The First Humans, Angels, and the DSS

[Reichu [ANF]]

This is "Evangelion". Were you expecting any less?

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 10:26 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

As far as the "Chamber of Guf was empty", I'm still working on that one. Suffice to say, the Guf has something do with the origin of souls (or just life energy in general) in the show, and is a name borrowed from Jewish tradition for something that has obtained scientific merit in the NGE universe.

Reichu, did you ever read this old post of mine on anime-forums?
http://www.anime-forums.com/viewtop...0f9a99#222 044

That was from years ago, so I don't know that I still stand behind everything I wrote there; but I'm curious to hear what you think about it.

edit: Also, could you dig up that Renewal Extras stuff you translated a while back about 2I being a Contact Experiment, and the White Moon being an egg that was about to hatch, etc?

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 13:39 GMT

[kaos [ANF]]

Nice explanation Reichu. Here's a few other questions for you and everyone else who may have an idea about this stuff (I'm reading gradually through the other threads so forgive me if you've covered this already.)

1.) What exactly was Seele's ultimate goal? And how exactly did that differ from Gendou's? I was always confused by this because it seemed like they had the same goal, it's just that their motivations were different.

2.) Is the Seele committee made up of angels? Because when Fuyutski is talking to them in episode 21' he says something to the effect that they are not the usual committe that he normally talks to (and their voices in the subtitled version are all ominous-sounding). And in EoE they tell Gendou that they will kill all of humanity. And in ep 23' when Seele is talking to Kaoru they tell him that the angels are the true inheritors of the earth and not the humans. This might answer question 1 -- somehow.

3.) In ep. 23' in the same conversation with Kaoru, Seele says that Kaoru has Gendou Ikari's soul and Gendou himself just has "his body". To which, Kaoru concludes that he and Shinji's father are the same. What's up with that? [edit: Maybe that means that Kaoru is a clone of Gendou like Rei is a clone of Yui. But if Kaoru is an angel with the soul of Gendou...is Gendou an angel? No, that's just too messed up.]

4.) If Rei is not an eva, then is she an angel? I always thought that she was ultimately a way for Gendou to control the Third Impact. But why would Seele let him get away with that? If she is a clone of Yui, does that mean that Yui's soul was cloned as well? Ooo.. Here's a theory.. You said that the angels did not yet have souls when they were born (or whatever). So maybe when they opened up the cave in Antartica they found a bunch of angels that had no soul, but there was one that did. So they whipped up a body by cloning Yui and transferred the soul of the angel into that body (and maybe Seele did something similiar with Kaoru later on). That would explain what Ritsuko mean by saying the "Chamber of Gaf was empty, you see" when talking about Rei. Her previous incarnation as an angel was the only one "born with a soul" but other than that the Chamber was empty. Wow. I am really talking out of my a** aren't I?

5.) Why is Seele's seal on Lilith? Are they just marking their property, so Gendou doesn't forget they they are the big boss?

That's it for now. Thanks to anyone that has anything to help my head stop hurting.

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 14:09 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Reichu, did you ever read this old post of mine on anime-forums?
http://www.anime-forums.com/viewtop...0f9a99#222 044

That was from years ago, so I don't know that I still stand behind everything I wrote there; but I'm curious to hear what you think about it.

I'm not sure what I think, at the moment... I'll post my thoughts there in the MPB thread, later, since the Guf has to do with all that.

edit: Also, could you dig up that Renewal Extras stuff you translated a while back about 2I being a Contact Experiment, and the White Moon being an egg that was about to hatch, etc?

Oh gawd, that? Ufufu. I'll have to read it again in a bit myself.

http://animenation.net/forums/showt...ghlight=weirder

Again, I'd like to keep further discussion of this crap in the preexisting threads... I'm sure you can pick one or the other, to follow up on stuff in if you so desire.

Now for more brain vomit.

1.) What exactly was Seele's ultimate goal? And how exactly did that differ from Gendou's? I was always confused by this because it seemed like they had the same goal, it's just that their motivations were different.

I'll get into more detail in a future thread that I'm preparing, but basically:

Seele wanted to reduce the components of life on Earth -- the physical (bodies) and metaphysical (souls) -- into their original states. Ergo, bodies become LCL, souls become a homogenous mass of metabiological energy. Why? "Humanity sucks, but maybe it won't the second time around." Yeah, if there IS a second time...

2.) Is the Seele committee made up of angels?

All humans are Angels.

[Wait. Scratch that. All humans on EARTH are Angels. Ah. Better.]

Because when Fuyutski is talking to them in episode 21' he says something to the effect that they are not the usual committe that he normally talks to (and their voices in the subtitled version are all ominous-sounding). And in EoE they tell Gendou that they will kill all of humanity.

The Human Instrumentality Committee is the public face of Seele, the five old guys who we meet in episode #02. We "meet" Seele proper later, which includes the five codgers, along with other guys who are keeping themselves completely anonymous.

And, yes, they want to kill everyone. Including themselves.

And in ep 23' when Seele is talking to Kaoru they tell him that the angels are the true inheritors of the earth and not the humans. This might answer question 1 -- somehow.

I already explained that Adam arrived on Earth first. This is why Adam is the "First Human" and her offspring the "True Successors".

3.) In ep. 23' in the same conversation with Kaoru, Seele says that Kaoru has Gendou Ikari's soul and Gendou himself just has "his body". To which, Kaoru concludes that he and Shinji's father are the same. What's up with that? [edit: Maybe that means that Kaoru is a clone of Gendou like Rei is a clone of Yui. But if Kaoru is an angel with the soul of Gendou...is Gendou an angel? No, that's just too messed up.]

No no no no! Kaworu's has Adam's soul salvaged into him (not EXACTLY sure how that happened). His body was created as a consequence of a physical Contact Experiment with Adam shortly before Second Impact occurred -- whatever the exact details, human DNA came in contact with her and ultimately (or very directly, depending on what happened) fused into one of her ova, conceiving Tabris (Kaworu).

Yes, OVA. This is another finding I made recently that people have been slow to catch up on (if they catch on at all), but Kaworu hatched from one of the egg-like mandorlas, much like Sandalphon (the Angel found in the volcano).

Whose DNA created Tabris is another unknown. There are two options: It's (A) no one of any significance whatsoever, or (B) Misato's father. I like (B), since I think it would be silly to squander such a blatant opportunity for Shinji/Misato parallelism here (more info in another thread, if you like), although I tend to get flagellated for it.

EDIT: Oh, sorry, my brain glossed over part of your question. When they said that Gendo had Adam's body, they were referring to this lovely sight.

As for how Gendo and Kaworu are the same, they both emotionally betray Shinji.

Kaworu: Shinji-kun's father... Is he like me?
Seele: That's why we now entrust our hope to you.
Kaworu: I know... for that's the reason I'm here now.

(later...)

Shinji: You betrayed my heart! You betrayed me just like my father!
Okay, while I'm not sure what Seele is talking about, and why it's the "reason" Kaworu is there, it's a start.

4.) If Rei is not an eva, then is she an angel?

It might be worth knowing exactly what "Angels" really are... Not what you might think.

I always thought that she was ultimately a way for Gendou to control the Third Impact.

"YOU ARE CORRECT SIR!"

But why would Seele let him get away with that?

The Seele-Gendo relationship is too convoluted for me to touch right now. Maybe one of the other geeks wants to.

If she is a clone of Yui, does that mean that Yui's soul was cloned as well?

Souls cannot be cloned. (Altho Lilith can do some interesting things with hers...) Rei has Lilith's soul, BTW.

Ooo.. Here's a theory.. You said that the angels did not yet have souls when they were born (or whatever). So maybe when they opened up the cave in Antartica they found a bunch of angels that had no soul, but there was one that did. So they whipped up a body by cloning Yui and transferred the soul of the angel into that body (and maybe Seele did something similiar with Kaoru later on). That would explain what Ritsuko mean by saying the "Chamber of Gaf was empty, you see" when talking about Rei. Her previous incarnation as an angel was the only one "born with a soul" but other than that the Chamber was empty. Wow. I am really talking out of my a** aren't I?

Yeah... Rei's origins have nothing to do with Antarctica aside from the fact that Evas are derived from Adam.

5.) Why is Seele's seal on Lilith? Are they just marking their property, so Gendou doesn't forget they they are the big boss?

I've heard it explained thus: Seele's mark is the Seven Eyes of God. Lilith is essentially the real-life embodiment of "God" in NGE, in the sense of being a transcendent entity responsible for our creation. It's bad to look directly upon the face of God, so they covered it up. That's the best I can do for now.

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 15:02 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

The whole SEELE-Gendo relationship? I'll try to explain it...
Yui, Gendo's wife was a brilliant research scientist who's research was funded by SEELE, Gendo, wanting to get closer to SEELE began to date Yui. He eventually married her and pretended to be Keel's freind in order to get in charge of SEELE's bizarre projects. SEELE, wanted to defeat the angels, but in order to defeat them (they were in the white moon in antarctica, but hadn't yet matured or recieved the souls stored in Adam, an angel herself, similar to Lillith) they had to delay Adam's awakening, which they were going to do using the lance, unfortunately Adam woke up and decided to blow Antarctica sky high, killing half the world's population.
Yui, who was also a member of SEELE (they aren't all old men), didn't agree 100% with SEELE, and they were considering killing her, so she decided she'd play god and become the soul of EVA-1.
After this occured Gendo gave ol' Keel the idea of Instrumentality which Keel liked a little too well...SEELE outlined a scenario, but Gendo had no intentions of following it, as he wants to go to be with Yui. Gendo eventually betrays SEELE several times (once he had Kaji steal Adam's embryo from them), leading them to attempt to seize NERV (not without several warnings albeit), and Gendo attempts to set off third impact simultenously with SEELE, in a different manner.

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 15:35 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Just some thoughts:

Actually, Adam blowing up Antarctica was engineered. This was in order to destroy the White Moon -- which it accomplished rather effectively, wouldn't you say?

I'm still not sure the exact role the Spear played in 2I. Still working on that one.

Yui's dad was apparently one of the aforementioned Old Men, and that's the only reason why she's in the organization. Seele is derived from an esoteric brotherhood of religious nuts, after all. Women = Perfidious Wenches. Just look at Yui.

Shin-seiki has provided some interesting insight into Gendo's strained relationship with Seele. Maybe he can provide some of the relevant links.

Finally, Gendo, Yui, and Kozo were all interested in saving humanity from the nothingness (or "rebirth", one could say) Seele had in mind, but, as we saw, Gendo and Yui's methods were just a little different... Gendo wanted to hold the reigns himself the whole time, whereas Yui threw herself right into the fray and "played along", waiting for her moment to rip apart HIP from the inside out.

But, uh, more on all that crap later... I have a lot of translating to do.

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 15:50 GMT

[Ark [ANF]]

Just some thoughts:
Actually, Adam blowing up Antarctica was engineered. This was in order to destroy the White Moon -- which it accomplished rather effectively, wouldn't you say?

Why did they need to destroy the white moon?

and how did they make Adam blow up antarctica?

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 16:30 GMT

[Rydis [ANF]]

I would like to add a question or two also. I have read most of Reichu's works in the past few months, and it has taken up many of my hour lunch breaks. One thing I can't seem to figure out is this.

Adam created the angles we know, and current humans being one of them angels. They found the dead sea scrolls in the white moon, if I read correctly.

If adam was already stuck with the spear, what happened to Lilith betweent he time Seele found the spear and capture lilith and put her into the room way below nerv?

If the dead sea scrolls were found in the moon, and they were created by the humans who made both lilith and adam, then that means they must of created them scrolls also. However, I hear that adam and lilith being on the same planet, was an accident. If thats the case, how does that tie in with the scrolls, since thats how hey derive their plan. Both "gods" needed to be there for them to execute their plan : Adam's embryo (i think) and the lance. So that couldn't be a complete accident could it?

I had some others but they escape me at the time being. Thanks.

edit: Remebered one. If the ancient humans created both, why would they fight each other. They found so one could have their kids on the planet. So what, did they just go all through space competing for who could have the kids on the most planets?(sarcasim sentence)

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 17:36 GMT

[kaos [ANF]]

It's a shame about my Rei=angel theory being blown out of the water. It sounded so cool when I was writing it... Maybe not so cool to read.

That aside, if I follow correctly:

1.) Rei has Yui's body and Lilith's soul.

2.) Kaoru has ??'s body and Adam's soul.

3.) Gendou has Adam's body (in his hand) -- Why did he do that anyway? [Edit]

4.) Lilith's body is nailed to the cross.

So that means when Rei lopped off and absorbed Gendou's hand and then Lilith sucked up Rei, then it was like a super-being with Lilith's body and soul and Adam's body. But did this super being have Adam's soul? I'm not sure because who knows where it went after Kaoru was killed. But he must have gotten it somehow because it morphs into Kaoru at one point.

Yui, who was also a member of SEELE (they aren't all old men), didn't agree 100% with SEELE, and they were considering killing her, so she decided she'd play god and become the soul of EVA-1.
After this occured Gendo gave ol' Keel the idea of Instrumentality which Keel liked a little too well...SEELE outlined a scenario, but Gendo had no intentions of following it, as he wants to go to be with Yui.

So I still don't understand where Gendou and Seele disagree. They both want to allow souls to seperate from their bodies. Unless Gendou wants to just isolate to phenominon to him and Yui and let everyone else alone.

And if Instrumentality wasn't SEELE's goal from the beginning, what was?

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 17:49 GMT

[Mr. Tines [ANF]]

2.) Kaoru has ??'s body and Adam's soul.

Unknown whose body, though it would be fitting if it were Misato's father (as Rei in form is Shinji's mother); there is some resemblance in the glimpse we see

3.) Gendou has Adam's body (in his hand) -- Why did he do that anyway? [Edit]

So that the body-of-Adam/body-of-Lilith core of 3I would include himself as guiding intelligence (only Rei decided to say "No.").

But did this super being have Adam's soul?[.QUOTE]

Probably - they had the body to recover (salvage) it from, just as they had to salvage hers from Crispy Fried Rei in ep#23

[QUOTE=kaos]So I still don't understand where Gendou and Seele disagree.

SEELE want to do a system reset, and restart from the pre- pond-scum LCL stage; Gendo wanted to park all the souls in the Evas during the catastrophe, then re-emerge and re-embody (ulterior motive - Yui could also be restored to her previous form).

And if Instrumentality wasn't SEELE's goal from the beginning, what was?

They share their symbol with the esoteric Essene cult, and presumably had some more religious form of immenentizing the Eschaton (hastening the end of the world, with presumed divine judgement accompanying it) in mind in earlier centuries.

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 19:36 GMT

[OMF [ANF]]

If the dead sea scrolls were found in the moon, and they were created by the humans who made both lilith and adam, then that means they must of created them scrolls also. However, I hear that adam and lilith being on the same planet, was an accident. If thats the case, how does that tie in with the scrolls, since thats how hey derive their plan. Both "gods" needed to be there for them to execute their plan : Adam's embryo (i think) and the lance. So that couldn't be a complete accident could it?

Perhaps the idea of the scrolls as prophetic written oracles needs to be looked at again.

As you have correctly pointed out, if the arrival of both the white and black moons was an accident, then why would the scrolls seem to detail such an unlikely set of circumstances. this does have implications for the "accidental impact" theory.

But consider that perhaps the scrolls are not in fact oracles of any kind. Consider that they may be simply be rough explanations, expoundings and.or warnings of what these entities in the moons are and what the consequences are likely to be if they come into contact with one another.

Perhaps the scrolls are mearly a howto for the future descendants of the sources of life to work on. Perhaps they mearly detail possibilites and perhaps instructions on how to create a new life propagule? In this sense, they are not so much oracles as they are encyclopedias, which may be consulted to draw a reasonable inferrence of future events. i.e. if the angels get out, they will do X under Y circumstances. If you know Y...?

Originally posted on: 12-Jan-2006, 08:38 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

So if this first ancestor civilization sent us these scrolls along with god-knows-what-else, how did we ever learn to read the alien script? With out some sort of Rosetta stone it would be impossible to learn as none of our languages would have descended from it.

Originally posted on: 12-Jan-2006, 08:48 GMT

[Rydis [ANF]]

But consider that perhaps the scrolls are not in fact oracles of any kind. Consider that they may be simply be rough explanations, expoundings and.or warnings of what these entities in the moons are and what the consequences are likely to be if they come into contact with one another.

Perhaps the scrolls are mearly a howto for the future descendants of the sources of life to work on. Perhaps they mearly detail possibilites and perhaps instructions on how to create a new life propagule? In this sense, they are not so much oracles as they are encyclopedias, which may be consulted to draw a reasonable inferrence of future events. i.e. if the angels get out, they will do X under Y circumstances. If you know Y...?

Yes that is true. But with Eva, right now, all we can do is speculate the most logical conclusions. But everything is more or less a possibility. The only way to know for sure then, is to know what the dead sea scrolls actually said.

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 21:39 GMT

[Rydis [ANF]]

So if this first ancestor civilization sent us these scrolls along with god-knows-what-else, how did we ever learn to read the alien script? With out some sort of Rosetta stone it would be impossible to learn as none of our languages would have descended from it.

It is stated that they were translated. I dont belive it says how, im about to look up script quotes now.

Edit: Done and only really found 2 quotes which isn't really that much evidance:

***
Ikari: The time schedule is proceeding according to the description in
the Dead Sea Scroll.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Gendou: Incidents missed by The Dead Sea Scrolls may occur.
That will teach the old men a lesson.
***

Here they describe their plan as something that was planned. Of course, the scrolls could of laid out a time frame in which if such a event occrued, they would have to stop it.

It also describes that they missed incidents in the scrolls. So there must be something in scrolls...

I didn't find anything about its translation.

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 21:40 GMT

[Ornette [ANF]]

From ep21:
Fuyutsuki: I will publish the truth behind Second Impact, you, Seele and the
Dead Sea Scrolls.
I cannot forgive the people who caused that.

ep23:
Seele: Now there is only one Angel left,
which is described in the Dead Sea Scroll of Seele.

Was also a flash of "Dead Sea Scrolls" (the word) in ep 26'

But nothing new to add as far as them being translated

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 22:11 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

Maybe one of the members of SEELE is from the original civilization or even a descendent of someone who was a member of the civilization and has knowledge of how to translate it. I think the latter is far more likely. Seeing as how no one could live that long, not even old man Keel is that old.

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 22:16 GMT

[Ornette [ANF]]

or maybe there was a rosetta stone equivalent

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 22:39 GMT

[Kokuei [ANF]]

Gendo doesn't like pain or being alone, and just wants to be with yui again. Seele just feels like they can takeit upon themselves to deliver all of humanity from pain in this radical way.

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 22:48 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

or maybe there was a rosetta stone equivalent

But how would they have known any of our languages if they were extinct or millions of lightyears off? There are some terrestrial languages we can't even decipher, let alone try to take on one that has no terrestrial basis.

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 22:59 GMT

[Ornette [ANF]]

I meant that figuratively, as in something (possibly a key) that helped them translate the scrolls. Not necessarily something made of stone that has the same text written in 3 different languages, one of which is this angelic script.

Not sure how much we can go into this, seeing as how there isn't even proof that they needed to be translated. But it's still interesting to throw in a few possibilities.

Originally posted on: 11-Jan-2006, 23:14 GMT