Soryu vs. Shikinami

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby Na7e » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:45 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:Quite the opposite, if he didn't want opinionated discussion, he would have a different topic title, regardless of what the post body says.


There's more than one definition to versus you know that right?

Versus/Vs: As opposed to; in contrast with

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:45 pm

Let's talk to the topic, rather than hair-splitting its meaning. And let's be calm and civilized gentlefolk while we do so.
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Postby SaltyJoe » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:44 pm

@Jornophelanthas:
In your comparison of Asuka and Rei, you seem to have skimmed over an important point: though not without it's genuine elements, the relationship between Shinji and Rei is staged, manipulated, by Gendo no less. It could be argued then that Rei trying to connect with Shinji, and succeeding, means that she simply played the role she was meant to play in the grand Ikari Puppet Show.

In different ways, sure, but the classic trio of Children are all getting played like instruments: like the chords on a piano, if you will (pointing towards the latest trailers for 3.0). And as long as they don't realize this, they will all be dolls.

Oh BTW, Asuka kills Sahaquiel. Not really relevant to your overall argument, just a minor mistake i noticed. The point of the battle was that all three participants were needed.
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Postby Na7e » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:04 pm

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:In different ways, sure, but the classic trio of Children are all getting played like instruments: like the chords on a piano, if you will (pointing towards the latest trailers for 3.0). And as long as they don't realize this, they will all be dolls.


Yeah, that fits heavily what with Shinji and Rei. Considering their relationship is facilitated by Gendo like you mentioned above. But, I really don't see where Asuka fits into this though, Gendo was more than willing to sacrifice her when it became apparent that Unit-03 was infected by the ninth angel. Even letting Unit-01's dummy system crunch the plug between it's teeth.

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Postby Jornophelanthas » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:35 pm

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:@Jornophelanthas:
In your comparison of Asuka and Rei, you seem to have skimmed over an important point: though not without it's genuine elements, the relationship between Shinji and Rei is staged, manipulated, by Gendo no less. It could be argued then that Rei trying to connect with Shinji, and succeeding, means that she simply played the role she was meant to play in the grand Ikari Puppet Show.

All we know is that Gendo wants Shinji and Rei to grow close, and he brings them into contact with one another. What is not shown is Gendo facilitating any further contact, or that he is even aware that Rei and Shinji are continuing to interact outside of piloting hours. He does not know that she is enjoying food. He does not know that she is conflicted about saying thank-you. He is completely taken aback at Rei's invitation to her dinner party, initially even refuses to come. He only changes his mind when he is struck by her resemblance to Yui.
Yes, I do believe that Gendo planted Rei in Shinji's classroom, and that he ordered her to go to the aquarium when Kaji told him he wanted Shinji to see the fish. But no, I do not believe Gendo orchestrated their relationship beyond giving them an opportunity to interact, or even expressed an interest in their interactions.

In different ways, sure, but the classic trio of Children are all getting played like instruments: like the chords on a piano, if you will (pointing towards the latest trailers for 3.0). And as long as they don't realize this, they will all be dolls.

When I say that Shinji is a real boy, I mean to say that Shinji actually has an impact on the world, even if he is a totally passive wimp. His gentle coaxing of Rei and totally non-competitive attitude towards Asuka are having a severe impact on both of them, forcing them to adapt.
It is almost as if Rebuild-Shinji is the only character who is not made out of cardboard, and he de-cardboard-izes all characters he interacts with.

Oh BTW, Asuka kills Sahaquiel. Not really relevant to your overall argument, just a minor mistake i noticed. The point of the battle was that all three participants were needed.

Yes, I just checked and I see you're right.
The point of this battle as it regards Asuka is that she is brutally faced with the reality that she is not the perfect pilot, because she chokes under the pressure, and is forced to accept Shinji's and Rei's assistance.
I'm not sure if there even is a point pertaining to Rei's character development in this battle.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:25 pm

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:Oh BTW, Asuka kills Sahaquiel.

Depends on whether or not Rei delivered the final blow by pushing the core in twain.
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Postby rockjammer » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:06 pm

id say the main reason Asuka is not friends w/ hikari in NME is not time constraints; rather its the fact that her said friendship existed to serve the touji sideplot...without a need to develop some sympathy for the soon to be eva-smacked touji with the hikari lunch scenario which Asuka facilitated, the further development of Asuka and hikari's relationship beyond sitting together at lunch is not necessary. and i wouldnt say that they ARENT friends; rather, NME doesnt go out of its way to point it out. As far as personality differences...Id say some of it is new, but i think that anno used different tools to focus on certain aspects of Asuka's character that were already there, like the wonderswan for her ambivalence/contempt for those around her or the phone conversation with Misato to show her feelings regarding loneliness that were in NGE as well but were not directly vocalized, at least not as early on in the storyline.rather than getting a drastically changed Asuka we instead get an "Asuka for dummies"; one that is more easily understandable at a glance (the doll is definitely a visual clue to the uninitiated that that maybe this girl has some issues).

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Postby Na7e » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:21 pm

View Original Postrockjammer wrote:id say the main reason Asuka is not friends w/ hikari in NME is not time constraints


Anno's interview in the CRC puts the reason as time constraints, and making her arc making more coherant narrative sense. She was meant to come into the story with basically no connections to the cast sans Misato, and then as 2.22 wore on blossomed into a socially retarded butterfly. Her relationship from Kaji was cut to give Mari a connection to the main cast, and as a way to isolate Shikinami.

View Original Postrockjammer wrote:and i wouldnt say that they ARENT friends; rather, NME doesnt go out of its way to point it out.


Hikari comes up to Shikinami asking her if they can eat together. Shikinami says something along the lines that she doesn't have food to share. Hikari blathers on about whatever while Shikinami watches as Shinji gives Rei a bento. She tells Hikari to have the rest, and leaves her hanging. The only other time she is really mentioned is when Misato catches Shikinami cooking food for Shinji, and she makes up some line about how it's for Hikari in the usual tsundere fashion. So no, they really aren't friends, and the main thrust of Shikinami's arc is to unsuccessfully reach out to Shinji, and be the plot device that breaks up any possible reconciliation between Gendo and Shinji.


View Original Postrockjammer wrote:like the wonderswan for her ambivalence/contempt for those around her


And, directly tie her to Shinji, in the fact they both use antiquated electronics to block themselves from the outside world. But, your right regarding her ambivalence in that whenever she uses it she's not in the best mood. The first time is when people approach her during school, she kicks two nerds in the face who bother her before going back to her game. When getting coaxed out of the apartment to the aquarium she argues with Misato trying to stay in the apartment. The next time is when they are actually in the aquarium, and remarks that there all acting like a bunch of stupid kid she skulks off, and turns on the wonder swan.

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:40 pm

View Original PostNa7e wrote:Hikari comes up to Shikinami asking her if they can eat together. Shikinami says something along the lines that she doesn't have food to share. Hikari blathers on about whatever while Shikinami watches as Shinji gives Rei a bento. She tells Hikari to have the rest, and leaves her hanging. The only other time she is really mentioned is when Misato catches Shikinami cooking food for Shinji, and she makes up some line about how it's for Hikari in the usual tsundere fashion. So no, they really aren't friends, and the main thrust of Shikinami's arc is to unsuccessfully reach out to Shinji, and be the plot device that breaks up any possible reconciliation between Gendo and Shinji.


Though in fairness I don't think she'd use Hikari in that fashion if there weren't something between them. I also don't think it's fair to say her efforts to reach out to Shinji were unsuccessful; she did reach out to him, and she did form a connection with him -- it just wasn't a connection that led to bumping uglies. Failure to score =/= failure to connect!
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Postby esselfortium » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:51 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I also don't think it's fair to say her efforts to reach out to Shinji were unsuccessful; she did reach out to him, and she did form a connection with him -- it just wasn't a connection that led to bumping uglies. Failure to score =/= failure to connect!

When did this take place in the film, exactly?

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:02 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:When did this take place in the film, exactly?


In his bed.
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Postby Warren Peace » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:06 am

It would be nice if Shikinami took romantic rejection better than Soryu did. It seems like she might. Is Shinji such a prize anyway? Life goes on, there will be other guys...

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Eye-patch angel love. BD

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Postby Alaska Slim » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:19 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote: Is Shinji such a prize anyway?

It has to do with the esteem she gives to piloting Eva. While he isn't much to look at or interact with, he is still one of the chosen, and rather good at what he does.

He meets a baseline no other boy her age can yet; importance by association, and not just to anything, but to something that's precious to her.

Thus; depending on where Kawrou goes from where he's at, EM may just get his pairing yet, adding in an eye-patch.

Hell, if the show can forget how exactly it got EVA-01 to deactivate after episode 19, I think SEELE could somehow get NERVE to take in Kawrou temporarily "You knew how dangerous it was to let EVA-01 get into that position, so we acted, etc. etc. etc.".
Last edited by Alaska Slim on Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Blue Monday » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:58 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Is Shinji such a prize anyway? Life goes on, there will be other guys...

Wasn't that what it was all about in NGE though? The fact that she didn't understand exactly why she had feelings for Shinji, whatever those 'feelings' may be. Romantic or not. May be the same case in NTE.

As Slim said though; I think the fact that he is a pilot and pretty good at it too (Relatively) is also a factor.
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:47 am

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:It has to do with the esteem she gives to piloting Eva. While he isn't much to look at or interact with, he is still one of the chosen, and rather good at what he does.

He meets a baseline no other boy her age can yet; importance by association, and not just to anything, but to something that's precious to her.

Exactly this. Asuka believes herself to be perfect. At first, she sees Shinji as a rival, as a threat to her status as the one and only pilot NERV will ever need. She believes Shinji got the job through his father's connections, and deems him totally unworthy of being an Evangelion pilot.

After she is faced with the 8th Angel ("Sahaquiel"), she learns that she is not so perfect after all, because she chokes and cannot make the shot without assistance. She is forced to accept Rei's and Shinj's help.

Following this event, she is conflicted, possibly even dejected, and she reaches out to Shinji. She learns that he only pilots to impress his father. This strikes home with her; I believe this is because she also pilots to impress people, and she discovers a common ground between them. (She feels to tell this to Shinji, so he remains clueless.)

From this moment onwards, it can be surmised that she views Shinji as an equal, and even tries to impress him. She has changed her opinion of him to the extent that she now considers him good enough for her to associate with. (But not as a married couple.)

Basically, if she cannot defeat all the Angels by herself, Shinji would be her first choice as an assistant. And yes, that's her hormones talking too.

Thus; depending on where Kawrou goes from where he's at, EM may just get his pairing yet, adding in an eye-patch.

It would be interesting to see Kaworu and Asuka interact this time. Although I expect the only topic they might be able to discuss would be Shinji.

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Postby Jayfive » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:01 am

It would be interesting to see Kaworu and Asuka interact.


Also Mari, although obviously we dont have any precedent from NGE.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:05 am

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:Asuka believes herself to be perfect.


Doubtful. While that's the face she shows to the world the conversation with the doll indicates exactly the opposite. We still don't know much of anything about her character, of course, but all indications so far suggest that she's lonely, and that she relies heavily on Eva because it's the only thing in her life she can trust. Her rejection of others seems to stem not from arrogance but rather from ineptitude -- boys hit on her, ignore them, play Wonderswan. People go ga-ga at the aquarium, pay no attention, back to Wonderswan. Why is she so afraid? Unclear. Perhaps we'll learn more in Q. Regardless, what is clear is that she is averse to social interaction when she shows up and gradually gets over it as time goes by (only to regress at the end, but more on that below).

After she is faced with the 8th Angel ("Sahaquiel"), she learns that she is not so perfect after all, because she chokes and cannot make the shot without assistance. She is forced to accept Rei's and Shinj's help.


You've said this several times now, and it's not true. She did not "choke". Indeed, she managed to land the killing blow quite splendidly, wrecking the hell out of the Angel and saving the planet in the process. Her performance there was pretty much flawless. But that battle wasn't ever about technical ability -- what Shikinami learned there was less about her own abilities than it was about her awareness of the fact that being perfect and awesome sometimes isn't enough to get the job done. Sometimes you need help.

Remember, this isn't Soryu we're talking about. She's not an untested newbie who is desperate to prove herself so she can feel like she's worth a damn -- indeed, in her debut battle she soloed an Angel in glorious fashion, with none of the desperation of either Ikari or Makinami (something Soryu never managed. This is the main difference between the two, in fact -- Shikinami received that critical early success and validation, and was able to move forward productively as a result. Soryu never really got either and could only disintegrate thereafter in the face of repeated failure and rejection). She had a plan, she stuck to it, and she killed the fuck out of that Angel before she even hit the ground. She's earned her bragging rights. But what she found with Sahaquiel is that that doesn't necessarily matter; sometimes life cheats and you need help. But that's okay! Forget about perfection, what's important here is that she learned that she doesn't have to be alone -- others can and will help her when she needs it. This is an important lesson, the same one Shinji learned in 1.xx only in highly compressed fashion. Her interactions with Shinji and Rei thereafter reflect this -- she's no longer focused on proving herself and instead is trying to overcome her loneliness. And of course, that's where she really chokes: she gives up on Shinji too easily, letting Rei have her little dinner party so she can retreat back into Eva. Bardiel was the price of her failure there.

From here, who knows? If Q is all grimdark she might use this as an excuse to run away altogether, but OTOH it might bring everything together and instead present her as a mature, fully realized character. The previews certainly seem to point to that route, but we'll just have to wait and see.

It would be interesting to see Kaworu and Asuka interact this time. Although I expect the only topic they might be able to discuss would be Shinji.


Given the NME's treatment of its female characters thus far that wouldn't surprise me, but it would be disappointing. I'm not sure it will matter much though; it looks like Kaworu's main conflicts will be with Shinji and (perhaps separately?) the other girls. It seems Shikinami will be tending to her own affairs.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Warren Peace » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:45 am

I don't know what you base that last sentence on. As far as I can tell, all we have are about four context-free shots of a completely mysterious battle. If you can figure it out based on that, awesome.

Kaworu and Asuka's stories better revolve around Shinji. I know everyone likes Han Solo more than Luke Skywalker, but Solo isn't at the heart of this thing. Luke... er, Shinji is. It's not even a change of tactics -- everything Asuka did in NGE also came back to the main character. That's what good stories do: the parts support the whole.

Shoulda killed the chick off, Anno. A dramatic statement that would have truly set Rebuild apart. Heads exploding like fireworks. Oh well.

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Postby Azathoth » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:51 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Kaworu and Asuka's stories better revolve around Shinji. I know everyone likes Han Solo more than Luke Skywalker, but Solo isn't at the heart of this thing. Luke... er, Shinji is. It's not even a change of tactics -- everything Asuka did in NGE also came back to the main character. That's what good stories do: the parts support the whole.


as shown in End of Eva, Asuka does not support the whole but rather actively works to bring it down into total incoherence of narrative. Han Solo is not an appropriate comparison. As a matter of fact there is probably not an appropriate comparison to her character within Star Wars since, as you and others have noted, everything in Star Wars is about Luke. Eva is about Shinji, but because it's so tightly centered on him it's easy to forget that it's also about things beyond Shinji. Luke's enemies are reflections of his potential, his literal dark side. Shinji's enemy on the other hand becomes aware that she could be a mirror to Shinji and actively refuses to take on that role, would rather the world be destroyed than cede her nature to him. anta nanka ni korosareru no wa mappira yo - that is to say, get out of here and take your hero shit with you.

She is not there to contribute to Shinji's hero-narrative. She is there to kick it to shit.

As to whether anything I've just said has any bearing on Shikinami - well, it sure doesn't look like it, does it? Her name was changed with good reason.
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Postby Brainman » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:05 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:I know everyone likes Han Solo more than Luke Skywalker, but Solo isn't at the heart of this thing. Luke... er, Shinji is. It's not even a change of tactics -- everything Asuka did in NGE also came back to the main character. That's what good stories do: the parts support the whole.


This is a bad example. In Empire Strikes Back, Han and Luke's arcs are completely separate from each other and don't come together until the end. The last time they even interact is when they depart Hoth, and they don't actually meet again until the following movie. Han's arc wasn't really motivated by Luke either. His story was mostly about trusting his old friend while trying to protect Leia and their deepening relationship.

That's what kind of puzzles me when people are insistent about the fact that Shinji is the main character. Like, no shit. If a story is written well enough, you should be able to naturally tell who that's supposed to be. You shouldn't have to be reminded or beaten over the skull with it. When you have a scene on Bespin with Lando dialogue that doesn't have anything to do with Luke, you don't stand up in the theater and shout "Hey! I thought this story was about Luke! Who's this guy? What is this?" You still understand that Luke's journey is the main point even when the movie is focusing on something else.

And I think that's what would be nice for Shikinami in 3.0. A separate arc that links back up with the main character's story in it's ending, but until that point allows for individual growth and development.
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