NGE Ep.24 Script Drafts & Rebuild

[LiLi]

and I'm not sure but doesn't it seem that S1 Asuka was rather good at reading Shinji's motivations?

I thought so too... BTW, The scene in which she first noticed Shinji and Kaworu talking and laughing together @NERV HQ reminded me a bit of Shikinami observing Shinji and Rei...

and the manga definitely does show some script elements, although they're a bit twisted; the least of them wouldn't be that Shinji faints on Kaworu and ends up being taken to bed, but it wasn't over anything happy.

You're right!! The fainting part with Kaworu taking a fainted Shinji to bed is right out of the D1!!! (even though the setup for the scene is different of course...)

@Ritsuko: It does look like she might be in for something like the D1 scenario, if it turns out she let an Angel into the House again... that is, she might get blamed and then fired by Gendo... only to get arrested afterwards (from the 3.0 preview it sounded like people involved with NERV were going to be 'secured', IIRC?)

@User-iel: As for Shinji being more... what many people here like to refer to as "manly" (which I don't really like as a choice of words but, whatever...) it seems to me ATE gave us some 'foreshadowing' of that when Asuka complained about that failure of a main character?

[Synapsid]

I thought so too... BTW, The scene in which she first noticed Shinji and Kaworu talking and laughing together @NERV HQ reminded me a bit of Shikinami observing Shinji and Rei...

It does now that you mention it; RoE R/S does seem a bit like that, It’s probably a flawed observation but I would say that Rei’s relation with Kaworu seems to have some parallels with the one he had with Kaworu, especially in the scripts (although we’re not certain if Shin-chan’s into girls, and Rei definitely seems to reciprocate).

You're right!! The fainting part with Kaworu taking a fainted Shinji to bed is right out of the D1!!! (even though the setup for the scene is different of course...) ..

They both sort of do share parallels, I don’t doubt that elements of the draft were reused there...I do wonder if some sort of the "And I believed you..." might not fit into the spear javelin thrower Kaworu idea

@Ritsuko: It does look like she might be in for something like the D1 scenario...(from the 3.0 preview it sounded like people involved with NERV were going to be 'secured', IIRC?)

It does sort of look like it might be heading in that direction, Gendo and Fuyu did seem to think that their work was mostly done so Ritsuko might not be necessary anymore and they might get rid of her for some sort of thing like that, from the trailer it does look like they're liquidating NERV like how it was mentioned in the scripts.

@User-iel: As for Shinji being more... what many people here like to refer to as "manly" (which I don't really like as a choice of words but, whatever...) it seems to me ATE gave us some 'foreshadowing' of that when Asuka complained about that failure of a main character?

Uh I know that I might be going over this a bit too much but I really just think Anno intentionally allowed for a few scenes to present that image when in truth nothing about his character seems to have changed...If anything Shinji seems even more maternal than before. (Anno does have a thing for misdirection, even in RoE so I do expect Shin-chan to end up crying on Kaworu’s shoulder or something of the sort)

[LiLi]

If anything Shinji seems even more maternal than before. (Anno does have a thing for misdirection, even in RoE so I do expect Shin-chan to end up crying on Kaworu’s shoulder or something of the sort)

Well, like I said, I wouldn't use the term "manlier" to describe him either... I mostly find him more motherly and sympathetic a character than his NGE counterpart. His last sequence with Rei, which probably contributed to the idea of a 'manlier' Shinji (and I can see why, if we're going by "stereotypes") is, ironically, a

Utena  SPOILER: Show

pretty obvious "tribute" to a scene from the last episode of Utena, IMO, where Shinji = Utena and Anthy = Rei. Incidentally, IIRC, the director of Utena is also a friend of Anno and the guy who, reportedly, was a model for Kaworu's character...

And we all know how Mama gets when her puppies are threatened, right?

I do think he's also somehow less passive though... in this sense, he might come across as a more 'adequate' protagonist...

I do wonder if some sort of the "And I believed you..." might not fit into the spear javelin thrower Kaworu idea

Ouch... I could imagine that...

from the trailer it does look like they're liquidating NERV like how it was mentioned in the scripts.

That sounds right...
Must remember to finish summarizing both drafts...

[SaltyJoe]

...so, basically, we get a Rei/Shinji ending because she got one extra movie?

A lack of A/S ending does not a R/S ending make. (Channeling Yoda, i am.)

But, besides time constraints, lets think with Asuka's head for a change, baka! (Getting into character...)

Two extreme options:
-Asuka reemerges from the Bardiel incident as a complete trainwreck, not wanting to touch anyone or be touched by anyone with a 10 foot pole. I guess you can see why that would be detrimental for A/S-ness:

"Everyone, i hate EVERYONE!"

-In a complete surprise move, Asuka reemerges from the Bardiel incident stronger (or at least convincingly pretending to be) than ever. And i think that, if this were the case, she would want to do even less with Shinji. She may get on good, friendly terms with him after a reconciliation, but after she basically gave him to the Favorite, would she really go for it a second time in a romantic manner?

"Oh, so Ekohiki is your mother, and that Makinami chick isn't interested in you at all?... Well, i already decided that i will move out of this picture but you know... can i come crawling back?... Oh, those cracking sounds? That's just my spine, no biggy."

Now i know that she didn't step down in Shinji's face, but come on! Even someone with less pride... no, dignity than Shikinami would consider it the epitome of lameness to go for the leftovers after you gave the dish to someone else. So i guess it would also be in character to not go after Shinji when all is said and done.

And if Shinji comes to her? "So i get to be your little backup? The second best option? Screw you and the horse you rode in on."

Well, i think these would be the in-character possibilities. Feel free to disagree.

If i think about it seriously, the best bet for a positive relationship for Asuka would be Misato (sadly, not like that). They already have a working bond, and if that doesn't get too chilly after Bardiel, then they could support each other to deal with losing Shinji (Misato lost him too), and the fact that the world is a scary place in general. And who knows, maybe this time around Misato could try what it's like to not fail utterly as a mother. It would keep both characters alive (don't count on them getting hours of screentime, though) besides doing Eva battles (Asuka) and dealing with Kaji's and Seele's machinations (Misato).

i personally think there's just no way for a revelation like that to not be dramatic. lol. i agree it may be too easy for yui just to tell them, though.

To be honest, i thought SSD's original proposal of Yui telling Shinji and Rei what's it like just reeked of wanting to cripple the R/S angle as fast as possible. But besides, drawing it out as long as they can would just make for more compelling drama, IMHO.

also, i'm all for "villain!kaworu," myself you are (not) alone on that one.

Yay!

i'm thinking she'll get killed again-- differently this time around, perhaps. but it just seems to be her fate, don't you think?

I would be surprised if most of the named cast didn't bite the dust by the end of 4.0.

And a personal question: do you have an aversion towards using capitals? Anti-capitalism? Waht are you, some communist?

ATE

I get this feeling that ATE was created from ideas they actually wanted to implement into the show in the first place, but were mostly scrapped.

[LiLi]

I was thinking of something...

In D2 we have that Shinji's Cello = Yui's Memento.
(I quite like the idea of Cello-Playing-Yui for some reason... )

In RoE, Shinj's SDAT = Gendo's leftovers that Shinji clings to (then Rei clings to it as Shinji's memento)

So. Please remind me. In NGE, were we ever told whether the SDAT used to belong to Gendo and why Shinji clung to it? (Or is it just that mp3 players had not been invented back then? )

In RoE, have we seen Shinji's cello make an appearance yet?

I get this feeling that ATE was created from ideas they actually wanted to implement into the show in the first place, but were mostly scrapped.

Well, I don't know about that, but the ideas in ATE were all presented as proposals finalized to the making of a "successful sequel" and as attempts at "fixing" the (audience-)perceived "weak points" of the TV series, so...

I have been seriously tempted (still am) to make a thread just to hunt down and list the ATE ideas that were actually implemented in RoE...

[Legendary]

Lili:

@NGESDAT: No, we were not told.

@ROECELLO: No, we haven't seen it yet.

[LiLi]

@Legendary:

Thanks, I thought so... but I wasn't sure.

I thought maybe

D2CELLO => ROESDAT

[Synapsid]

Well, like I said, I wouldn't use the term "manlier" to describe him either... I mostly find him more motherly and sympathetic a character than his NGE counterpart. His last sequence with Rei, which probably contributed to the idea of a 'manlier' Shinji …is, ironically, a… I do think he's also somehow less passive though... in this sense, he might come across as a more 'adequate' protagonist...

Ah, I guess that’s right he really did seem to take more involvement in other’s well being at least until Bardiel(TV Touji did comment on him becoming like that, but it wasn’t as pronounced), and he did run after Rei,I guess Shinji isn’t normally thought of as a Utena but I guess that elment is there in his character.

... And we all know how Mama gets when her puppies are threatened, right? ...

I did sort of get that type of impression from the entire scene, (it did seem almost to mirror idea of a mother rescuing her child) I guess Zeruel accidentally found out how to provoke Wanko-kun. I do think it’s a bit ironic that Shinji is mothering Rei when one of the common perceptions of her is as his mother(which I know really isn’t accurate, but it's still a comon view.).

Ouch... I could imagine that...

I wonder if he'd vacillate between feeling a sense of betrayal and anger at Kaworu and wanting to accept his comfort.

-Asuka reemerges from the Bardiel incident as a complete trainwreck, not wanting to touch anyone or be touched by anyone with a 10 foot pole. I guess you can see why that would be detrimental for A/S-ness:

"Everyone, i hate EVERYONE!"
...And if Shinji comes to her? "So i get to be your little backup? The second best option? Screw you and the horse you rode in on."

I'm almost certain the second option is what will happen and it really would be the most sensible one, Asuka very much would have reasons to see what happened as a betrayal so I could very well see that playing with her jealousy from before. I really do think that she’d be happy to see Shinji hurt and if he did try to run to her for comfort she certainly wouldn’t hesitate to throw him off, violently perhaps(the strangling scene from the Manga comes to mind), and add something along the lines that she hates, everything but him most of all...(and I’m sure Kaworu coming in to rescue him would only infuriate her.)
I don’t think that would kill the interaction between the two though, it wouldn’t have made sense if we were just fed something syrupy. Bardiel probably has made whatever interactions we would have seen between the two far more novel and compelling. (And there I suppose is the chance that despite her “hatered” of him Shin-chan might become involved in some sort of rescue in an Air situation...Of course nothing Shinji ever does works out like he wants so… )
[URL=http://s528.photobucket.com/albums/dd325/Synapsidia/EVA/?action=view&current=eva020.jpg][/URL]

I get this feeling that ATE was created from ideas they actually wanted to implement into the show in the first place, but were mostly scrapped.

So in other words Pen^2 was supposed to talk, the Eva's would be a sentai squad, Akebono would have been a star, and EVA was going to be a sound only anime? I know the plugsuit found it's way in but...

[User-iel]

@LiLi - I take up this challenge:

I challenge thee - fit Kaworu and his relationships to Rei and Shinji into the above plotline! Make sure to point out...

For it is seemly and of noble guise. I will have to delay my answer a bit more, but soon enough you shall have it!

Prior humor reference was from Zegapain, 2006 vintage.

@topic - Well, this the notion of Shinji not being firmly anchored in gender roles is not new, so I suggest it would be better for us to discuss his behavior and maturity qualifications at the component level. In that case, being motherly could be an improvement, if he is doing it for the right reasons, and with competence. In that case is he performing above or below his age level in this skill? We can compare RoE and NGE versions of each character more directly using a technique like this, which abstracts plot events, which will only further diverge.

[Lagann]

Wow having just read the unused scripts its amazing how different Kaworu ended up being in the anime in comparision to the scripts and manga. So different that it seems like it was a diliberate choice instead of it being the result of a budget restraint In the anime it seems like Kaworu willingly sacrificed himself to save the lilim,but in the manga and from what I can tell from the scripts he fights or ether halfheartently accepts his fate. In 1.0 and 2.0 we dont see Kaworu that much so its all up in the air on what version he ends up being.

[LiLi]

Wow having just read the unused scripts its amazing how different Kaworu ended up being in the anime in comparision to the scripts and manga. So different that it seems like it was a diliberate choice instead of it being the result of a budget restraint In the anime it seems like Kaworu willingly sacrificed himself to save the lilim,but in the manga and from what I can tell from the scripts he fights or ether halfheartently accepts his fate. In 1.0 and 2.0 we dont see Kaworu that much so its all up in the air on what version he ends up being.

I think it feels like we have 5 different versions of Kaworu: Draft 1, Draft 2, NGE, EMK, RoE!Kaworu.

To me, the D1 and D2 versions are those that feel more "human" so far. I have yet to make a detailed summary of Kaworu Last Scene from the drafts (MSc thesis + bureucracy = ) but I'll leave here a couple of details as I remember them (take with a grain of salt).

IIRC, in both Drafts Shinji asks Kaworu whether he was just using him for his purpose, and Kaworu denies it.

In the FIRST one he says that, had he known it was going to end like this, it would have been better for him to die in the sea with Shinji. The days he spent with Shinji were important to him and Shinji is the only one who can kill him.

IIRC in the SECOND draft he tells Shinji he never had any intention to fight to begin with... Shinji tries to persuade him to go back together, so they can have their duet (Shinji even practiced the Cello a bit!) but Kaworu feels he can't fight his instinct to plunge into Adam much longer - Shinji must kill him.

:EDIT:

Now, on to something else I had meant to bring up...

Gendo says it's the new Eva prototype, αーEVA.
Fuyutsuki is wondering why it was necessary at this point to make a miniaturized Eva.
Gendo says it was made for the Instrumentality Project. This is the test type.
Fuyutsuki objects that a lot of people are having doubts about the freezing of the repair works on Eva 00. [snip]

Was anyone else reminded of the "Sumo" conversation between SEELE and Gendo + ensuing convo between Fuyu and Gendo in 2.0?

(You can find the whole scene at the beginning of the summary entry for Draft 1)

[gwern]

Hmm, i skimmed through the drafts, and i can honestly say the only element i can see incorporated into Rebuild is Kaworu interacting with other characters besides Shinji.

I mean, in the drafts (and in the original series, too) Kaworu came out of the blue into Shinji's life when he was at an emotional low-point (well, he seemed to be pretty self depreciating in the first draft, the second draft is much like what came to be aired, and we all know what Episode 24 was like). But this time around, Shinji both seemed to be somewhat stronger than his original counterpart, and generally gained more emotional support from the people around him. Even in mundane scenes like the picnic at the aquarium, everyone was praising him about how great his cooking is.

What i'm trying to say, it is pretty much impossible to present Kaworu yet again as the "prince on a white horse", the only person who shows genuine affection towards Shinji, since this just wouldn't be true anymore. I'm sure that the way their relationship is handled will be drastically different compared to what we could see previously (much hinges on when will Shinji be yanked out of Unit-01 and how much he will learn about Rei before he meets Kaworu, but still). Not to mention, not only is Shinji different, Kaworu's own build up so far gives him a very different tone from the series version of Tabby-kun.


That's a trickier question, though. Shinji shows flusterdness and confusion in the presence of nude female bodies (Rei and Asuka), but so far, i would describe him as "asexual". It is impossible to decide whether the confusion i mentioned above stems from his hormones, or from socialization, that is, he LEARNED that he should be flustered when seeing a girl in the nude.

On a side note, sexuality has been noticeably toned down in Rebuild compared to the series. Not only there is no visible tension between Shinji and Asuka, but the Misato/Kaji interactions are also more "chaste" so far.

Reading this is interesting in light of 3.0. My own impression is that it did exactly what you said would be implausible: present Kaworu as an absurd prince on a white horse who somehow wins Shinji's heart while he is utterly down and unconnected to anyone, making this so by destroying the world, time-skipping, and making everyone hate Shinji but Kaworu. And since it was so implausible in practice as much as theory...

Comparing the draft's homoeroticism to how high or low 3.0 chose to go might be interesting. I have to confess, I was already a little disgusted and had tuned out a bit during the Kaworu romance, so I'm not sure if it took a toned-down tack like TV.

[Blue Monday]

^ Dude, spoilers... Quick.

[Na7e]

^ Dude, spoilers... Quick.

The thread title is marked as spoilers. So yeah he's in the clear. Though this should probably be moved into the Eva-Q subforum.

[Blue Monday]

My bad, I seriously thought this was under the 'Everything Else' section, haha.

Had to do a double-take, as I thought it was this thread:
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/7702/NGE-Ep24-Script-First-and-Second-Drafts/

[K40s]

What about Kaworu's wrist scars? in both drafts there's mention of this, was it used in the manga?

What do we take from this? Kaworu is an emo-cutter?
Seriously maybe he realized his nature and that he was being used for seele's purposes and decided to not play along?

[gwern]

What about Kaworu's wrist scars? in both drafts there's mention of this, was it used in the manga?

Offhand, I don't remember it in the manga, but I never looked for it.

My own interpretation reading the scripts was that this is probably intended to suggest that Kaworu was experimented upon by Seele - scars from IVs, restraints, something like that.

On the other hand, one of the drafts says that he realized he was not human pretty late on:

KAWORU: I think it was when I turned ten. I came to this city and first understood my fate. This is what I was seeking.

So perhaps there were thoughts of a child abuse angle: Shinji has his abandonment, Asuka her mother's suicide (also in the drafts), Rei loneliness and no real life, so it'd be fitting if Kaworu was physically abused by his parents.

[K40s]

On the other hand, one of the drafts says that he realized he was not human pretty late on

This, I was thinking more in the lines that when he realized his nature he attempted suicide by cutting his wrists.

[Güf Trüp]

Kaworu's lack of any interaction with anyone not named Shinji in 3.0 grinded my gears a tad. When he's with Shinji the focus is too much on his unconditional love for him to define him well enough as a character. 3.0 used this much better than I expected though, as it managed to define Kaworu as a rounded character entirely through his interaction with Shinji, which is impressive to say the least. Still, I would've liked to have seen some non-Shinji interaction from Kaworu, like in the manga or the drafts.
Q-Kaworu was blessed by the writers to be introduced at a point that was extremely similar to how he was in the original show, though it seems like they did carry over the original script's characterization of him, who seemed to mask some level of depression and loneliness behind his smile, which could only be assumed in the original series. Beyond that, I wouldn't make any connections between the drafts and Rebuild.