A remake or a sequel?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby 1731298478 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:26 am

View Original PostOrnette wrote:Less fun than somehow trying to explain a temporal loop/time skip/time travel/many worlds/omnipotent being/etc. from TV series + EoE to Rebuild?

I don't know if Anno had even decided what he would end up doing with them when he inserted many of the mysterious elements in the new films. I will note, though, that there is a precedent for "sequel theory" that might have influenced Anno. Go Nagai's Violence Jack was revealed in its final chapters to have been a sequel to Devilman. In Violence Jack, it turns out that, after its destruction, the world was recreated by the fallen angel Ryo Asuka for the sake of trying to resurrect Akira Fudo, whom he had fallen in love with. However, the recreation was not entirely successful.

Without question, Anno is familiar with Violence Jack (according to the Japanese wikipedia, in Schizo, Anno mentions the Slum King as one source of inspiration for the design of the Evangelions). In addition, some Eva fans have noted parallels between Ryo Asuka and Kaworu Nagisa (including Halicat and Synapsid on EGF). Kaworu's appearances in NME especially seem reminiscent of both Ryo Asuka and the storyline of Violence Jack. However, that doesn't mean Anno deliberately intended to follow the approach of Violence Jack somehow; because many of Anno's influences emerge unconsciously, and in particular the influence of Devilman on the original NGE emerged this way, it may be that the mysterious elements involving Kaworu are a kind of unconscious echo of Violence Jack, and not directly related to a conscious intention. But, if there is some sort of "loop" involved in NME, possibly Violence Jack was a source of inspiration for it.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:37 am

^ +1
I still haven't finished reading Violence Jack (I really want to do so now) but you've surely exposed a quite suggestive idea.
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Postby deeRez » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:15 pm

I think Rebuild is a remake.

Eva-TV was made, Anno noticed a lot of errors that were too late to fix, but kept going, and new errors arose.
On top of that, Eva-TV had a couple of plot points that were added in/stretched beyond reason just to fit the narrative nature of TV-episodes. A plot point that lasts only ten minutes is no good for a TV episode.

Now, Anno as an artist, may want to disown the TV series because of these errors, imperfections, and instead, he may want to transplant the good/salvageable parts into a proper Eva, one where more thought was given to each episode,
which is why the movie style fits so well.

So the first step is to better fit the religious influence.
In the Christian bible, at the end of the world, the oceans run blood-red.

Anno stated he's wanted blood red oceans in the original Eva as well. The aquarium scene also explains that the blood red oceans are from second-impact, and hence are not from EoE.

Furthermore, in the Christian bible there's seals that get undone and angel trumpets, and each seal/trumpet is a plague thrust unto the world, unto humanity. The coffins on the moon in Rebuild? The seals.

Most likely Seele gathered up the seals (angels) and is purposely unleashing them unto humanity itself. In the christian bible, it is god who releases the seals. By having Seele do it, it might be Seele's attempt to beat god to the punch by doing god's job so that they in essence are god.

Sort of like god stating in the dead sea scrolls that he will set a city on fire in 500 days, and you decide to do it 100 days before god does it, so that god can't do it. Doing so perverts god because god is no longer able to fulfill his promises, and it empowers man because it shows that man can thwart god's plans.

The blood stain on the moon and the trace of the giant at the beginning of 1.0, are most likely ejects from second impact.
Saying that the giant at the beginning of 1.0 is from EoE is silly, since humanity would have found the EoE giant before Lilith/Adam.

Seele probably gathered up these ejects, and moved its base to the moon (where one of the ejects was already located), because it fits the idea of "heaven" being up-there. The seals/trumpeting angels come from up-above, from above the clouds. It fits with the biblical verses, thus fulfilling the prophecy.

As for Kaworu's lines, and the children of destiny theme that was hinted to by Gendo earlier, I have a feeling that Kaworu has met Shinji before when they were younger. It fits with idea of it being pre-planned.

I can see Rebuild reusing the sand-pyramid scene in 3.0, but with Kaworu playing with Shinji (and maybe Asuka/Rei/Mari/who knows):
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Postby ONIAgent150 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:04 pm

SPOILER: Show
View Original PostdeeRez wrote:I can see Rebuild reusing the sand-pyramid scene in 3.0, but with Kaworu playing with Shinji (and maybe Asuka/Rei/Mari/who knows):
Image



That was my first thought upon seeing that in Rebuild. a clear reference to Shinji's infamous pyramid scene. But is it foreshadowing or just a hat tip?
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Postby Azathoth » Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:34 pm

An analogy. Same shit. Shinji destroys what he helped construct and what he should have been protecting. Why? Because he feels like he's been abandoned and left to fend for himself, just as in Rebuild.
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Postby Warren Peace » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:35 am

The pyramid stuff is intriguing because they went out of their way to put it there. They didn't have to. I don't think it makes sense as foreshadowing because... well, why would you do THAT scene again, of all things? If they're following EOE so closely, it's not an encouraging sign.

View Original PostOrnette wrote:Less fun than somehow trying to explain a temporal loop/time skip/time travel/many worlds/omnipotent being/etc. from TV series + EoE to Rebuild?


I think so. That would be at least be interesting. Shinji prior to Sachiel? Not so interesting. It would be like flashing back to Luke Skywalker's life with his Aunt and Uncle at the beginning of Empire.

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Postby deeRez » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:07 am

The pyramid scene I referenced in my post above because it applies to Kaworu's statement, that Shinji doesn't change.

My point is that Kaworu's line could be talking about Shinji not changing from childhood to adulthood, and not from a previous life.

Anyways, apart from that, including what I wrote above, I don't think the "sequel" theory has any legs to stand on.
Last edited by deeRez on Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:10 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby EvangelionFan » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:07 am

@Pyramid Discussion:

In NGE, Episode 18 ends with Shinji in Unit 01 at the recovery site, getting freaked out about seeing what's there. Episode 19 starts with him in Unit 01 as it is docked at the hanger bay, and he's refusing to get out because he's heartbroken about it.

It occurs to me that in 2.xx, this scene was created as an alternate means of having Shinji express his anger: it is more useful for the development of the story for Shinji to carry out his tantrum in Unit-01 when he has some power (before it gets back to the dock), rather than when he doesn't (when it is docked).

In my opinion, the inclusion of this scene is a fair choice - and although given that Re!Shinji is not as good friends with Shinki as NGE!Shinji is with Toji, it can be argued that the inclusion of the song in the Dummy Plug sequence allows for the pyramid scene to maintain the rhythm of the film.

As for the similarities with the scene in EoE - it is a reference and a homage. But as Azathoth said, both scenes carry an analogy about Shinji feeling abandoned and turning on the things that he helped create: in EoE it is allegorical in that he attacks something which brought happiness to himself and others; in 2.xx it is literal in that he attacks something which had brought a sense of safety and shelter to himself and others.
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Postby Ornette » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:49 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:I think so. That would be at least be interesting. Shinji prior to Sachiel? Not so interesting. It would be like flashing back to Luke Skywalker's life with his Aunt and Uncle at the beginning of Empire.

All the "Kaworu knew something about Shinji in the past" is needed is exactly that, some indication that Kaworu knew something about Shinji's past, thus everything's settled, we don't even need to know what particular thing Kaworu is referring to about Shinji's past, end of story, that line of dialogue is explained, move on to more interesting things.

If suddenly it's revealed that "A wizard's done it!" and somehow there was a time skip, you'd need to at least qualify that somehow. If somehow it's revealed someone had magical powers to reset time and let it stand on its own, it would be completely retarded and out of place. Would it be more fun to try to explain that in the context of Rebuild as opposed to simply imply something and have whatever mysterious line of dialogue explained? I don't think so. But who knows, maybe they can write all that in and make it interesting and not out of place.

But while I was thinking about it, I vaguely remember reading in some NewType article, in particular one that mentioned that Kaworu will play a larger role in the first movie and be involved in a "school setting". It could be that Kaworu was referring to something that wasn't actually that long ago.

EDIT: NM, not NewType, it was part of the original announcement: http://forum.evageeks.org/post/51569/More-Eva-Recent-news-Rebuild-Newtype-article/#51569

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Postby Warren Peace » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:54 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:All the "Kaworu knew something about Shinji in the past" is needed is exactly that, some indication that Kaworu knew something about Shinji's past, thus everything's settled, we don't even need to know what particular thing Kaworu is referring to about Shinji's past, end of story, that line of dialogue is explained, move on to more interesting things.


Even you're treating it like something bothersome to be discarded as quickly as possible. Nobody seems to like the idea, they just don't like the other options. You're Mitt Romney, YoungKaworuXShinji Theory! You aren't concerned about the very poor!

View Original PostOrnette wrote:If suddenly it's revealed that "A wizard's done it!" and somehow there was a time skip, you'd need to at least qualify that somehow. If somehow it's revealed someone had magical powers to reset time and let it stand on its own, it would be completely retarded and out of place. Would it be more fun to try to explain that in the context of Rebuild as opposed to simply imply something and have whatever mysterious line of dialogue explained? I don't think so. But who knows, maybe they can write all that in and make it interesting and not out of place.


I'd expect them to explain it the way most sci-fi does: "uh, Quantum physics or something. Don't worry, you wouldn't understand." The how isn't important in stuff like this, it's the possibilities. Like I said earlier, those possibilities are completely in line with Evangelion:

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:The series is always dealing with doubles, mirrors, clones, antitheses ("none of these are the real me!"). Time and time again you have duality coming into play. Hell, the series even reboots (re-imagines?) itself in the final episode! If Rebuild is a sequel, there's lots of ways to deal with that rooted in the original show.

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Postby Ornette » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:25 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Even you're treating it like something bothersome to be discarded as quickly as possible. Nobody seems to like the idea, they just don't like the other options. You're Mitt Romney, YoungKaworuXShinji Theory! You aren't concerned about the very poor!

I'm just saying they don't even have to have met for Kaworu's mysterious lines to be explained (not sure how many times I need to repeat this), where previously people were suggesting that they knew each other in the past, which is even simpler/straightforward and all without having to introduce a time wizard into the equation. I'm not even a proponent of the theory. Or any theory attempting to explain it when the story hasn't finished yet.

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Postby Warren Peace » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:33 pm

Why is "simpler/straightforward" the supreme virtue? If Shinji meeting Kaworu/Kaworu hearing of Shinji/Kaworu spying on Shinji is simpler, it's because it's boring with limited story possibilities. Hey, if they're going that direction, I hope they find some way to make it compelling. I'm just saying that it would be hard. Bring on the Time Wizard, he sounds interesting.

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Postby Ornette » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:25 pm

It doesn't need to be simple or straightforward, unless we're trying to fanwank something after everything's on the table. It was simply a response to this: http://forum.evageeks.org/post/522316/A-remake-or-a-sequel/#522316 where it was noted that them meeting was "excessively complicated". I'm not even sure I'm familiar with the particular meeting theory that's being referred to there, as there wasn't a link to it. As noted at the beginning of this thread, obviously anything can happen, or (and this is what I think will probably happen), nothing will happen and it'll just be a troll-bait line.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:04 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Bring on the Time Wizard, he sounds interesting.

Well said, Warren Peace. Both the troll bait and the meeting theory sound like boring and uninteresting explanations, there's also the elusive phrase from Jo "The third one again, huh? You sure haven't changed." which potentially points in the same direction; I wonder if we really should simply dismiss them as in-universe references or even worse as troll baits.
"Incidentally" both phrases have been insterted at the end of the respective movie so they obviously have to make a strong impression on the viewer, I'd be deluded if they did it only for the sake of "trolling" us.
View Original PostOrnette wrote:It was simply a response to this: http://forum.evageeks.org/post/522316/A-remake-or-a-sequel/#522316 where it was noted that them meeting was "excessively complicated".

If it were completely unexplained then it'd be simply awkward rather than potentially complicated, imo.
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Postby symbv » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:52 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:"Incidentally" both phrases have been insterted at the end of the respective movie so they obviously have to make a strong impression on the viewer, I'd be deluded if they did it only for the sake of "trolling" us.

I'd better explain what I meant by "troll bait" when I said it might be what Kaworu's words are about. I did not mean that they hold no meaning at all, but given that so many people took it (the bait) as something indicating that NME is a sequel, if the later movies turn out to be totally independent from NGE/EoE, then his words already serve as a "trollbait". And the same could be said for those red stain on the Moon etc that some fans think indicate NME is a sequel.
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Postby Warren Peace » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:01 pm

That's why I really dislike the word "trolling" outside of internet forums. Misdirecting people about mysteries is not trolling, it storytelling! And why would it be trolling in only one direction? Why wouldn't the non-sequel contingent be "trolled" if the theory turns out to be true?

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Postby symbv » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:11 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:That's why I really dislike the word "trolling" outside of internet forums. Misdirecting people about mysteries is not trolling, it storytelling!

Storytelling by trolling.
View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:And why would it be trolling in only one direction? Why wouldn't the non-sequel contingent be "trolled" if the theory turns out to be true?

If it is indeed sequel after all, then you can argue that the non-sequel camp was trying to be too clever by second-guessing the director. If the director tried to subvert expectation of him by second-guessing the viewers' second guesses, and made it straight, then you could call it trolling too. I this case, the director would still be trolling, albeit on a different, more complex, level.
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Postby Warren Peace » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:32 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Storytelling by trolling.


Like when they told us Anakin Skywalker was dead, but he turned out to be Darth Vader!? Epic troll. Or when Hitchcock said Norman Bates's mother was a murderer, but the girls were actually killed by a drag queen!? Trollorific. How 'bout that time Bruce Willis was not-dead, but in the end was really dead-dead!? Trollzam!

View Original Postsymbv wrote:If it is indeed sequel after all, then you can argue that the non-sequel camp was trying to be too clever by second-guessing the director. If the director tried to subvert expectation of him by second-guessing the viewers' second guesses, and made it straight, then you could call it trolling too. I this case, the director would still be trolling, albeit on a different, more complex, level.


That's one Hell of a knot. You're going too far second-guessing anything because all we have is first guesses. The films haven't given us enough information to draw any conclusions at all. Solving the answer would be a coincidence. It's as if Kaworu said: "I am the pilot's brother". Those who'd guess "Asuka" if it turns out to be "Shinji" aren't being trolled, they just randomly picked the wrong thing. This is an open-ended mystery that cannot solved until the narrative runs its course. A.K.A. storytelling!

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Postby symbv » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:56 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:That's one Hell of a knot. You're going too far second-guessing anything because all we have is first guesses. The films haven't given us enough information to draw any conclusions at all. Solving the answer would be a coincidence. It's as if Kaworu said: "I am the pilot's brother". Those who'd guess "Asuka" if it turns out to be "Shinji" aren't being trolled, they just randomly picked the wrong thing. This is an open-ended mystery that cannot solved until the narrative runs its course. A.K.A. storytelling!

Well, this is in response to your words 'Why wouldn't the non-sequel contingent be "trolled" if the theory turns out to be true?' - and I am arguing that if it is really a sequel after all, in what circumstances we can still call it is trolling on Anno's part. Of course it is an open-ended mystery out there, but Anno also gave us enough of information to nudge viewer's thought towards a sequel possibility. If he is intentionally doing it, then I am saying it can be his trolling (depending on how it turns out of course).
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Postby SaltyJoe » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:54 pm

Going back to an earlier point of this thread, it seems to me that there are two main schools of thought with regards to making sense of Kaworu's lines: the "they met before" camp and the "sequel" faction. Either these or bust. Well, allow me to fanwank not one, but two exciting(?) alternatives. One is pretty straightforward, the other's a bit whack.

1., This is the less convoluted version: rather than remembering the past of the original NGE series, Kaworu sees the future of the NME timeline. Some form of prescience that allowed him to know of Shinji and his nature before they've actually met. And that's it.

2., The loopy version: okay, so now we presumably have four Adams that were awoken on Antarctica. Well, what if this means that there were four donors for contact instead of one? Further, what if one of these donors, the "Third" one who "never changes", was Yui Ikari? She was there on the South Pole, having given Shinji birth before (not that much of a pain for the timeline), then she mindmelded with some supreme being who later took the form of Kaworu.

The being learned of Shinji and whatnot from Yui, there was some battle of wills, Yui somehow managed to keep the form of "her" Adam together which ended up on the shores of Japan (chalk outline), later to be made into Eva-01. I'll admit this idea makes a bit of a mess of the timeline for the production of Eva units.
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