What is the connection between SEELE and the Angels?

[Andarthiel]

I've been watching the Rebuild of Evangelion movies and most of it seems to make sense except for the end of the second film. I've seen the original series and I assume Kaworu is an Angel and in the scene where he comes out a box on the moon, there are other boxes there which leads me to believe that this is where Angels are spawned. But at the same time SEELE is building an EVA on the moon, Unit 06 and they assign Kaworu as the pilot. So I'm just wondering is SEELE also manipulating the Angels as they are with NERV for their own purposes?

[Asj]

At this point, given 3.0 and all, I'm assuming you're intended to let go of the superficial concept of narrative and enjoy the meta/psychological conversation. If Anno ever ties up all the loose ends, he'll do it in final (a man can hope)

About your question, I can't really answer you, but I think you should also bring up Kaworu's appearances and angel status on the topic. Someone pointed out that there is no proof that all Kaworus are the same - 3.0 being Shinji's character development machine and gay love interest, 1.0 having him talk about the "Third Child" in a distant manner, and lastly 2.0's no-fun-allowed. All of this hasn't been explained, and might very well never be, so if anyone has a deeper insight on this... Along with the 1st to 13th angel thing.

This is all kind of masochistic, since we're talking about Anno, who already said that he "didn't want people to escape the actual message by arguing about the narrative" (not sure about that). Worst case scenario, he'll smile and say "Shit happened, get out"

[ElMariachi]

1.0 having him talk about the "Third Child" in a distant manner,

For what it's worth, it was only while talking to SEELE-01, once alone he said "I'm eager to meet you (again?), Ikari Shinji-kun".

[Dima]

I don't think that SEELE has a connection with the Angels.

Kaworu is a different situation and i don't think SEELE controls him. They are just co-operating.

[Ultrahuntr]

I don't think that SEELE has a connection with the Angels.

Agreed. With the way they complain about the costs of repairing the Units injured in the fights, and how they react to news about the angels themselves, I would say it makes more sense to say they have knowledge about the angels. Now, how in-depth is this knowledge? Who knows. but I'm almost positive they aren't manipulating them in any way, at least not to the degree that you are suggesting.

[unitM]

SEELE has no connection with the angels, outside of Kaworu and the DSS.

However, mentioning the DSS leaves a lot of ambiguity. For example, there's a lot of suspicion surrounding Asuka's angel contamination. Was this in the DSS anywhere? SEELE was in part responsible for cleaning up whatever mess Asuka was left in, so this leaves us with the question "how far involved is SEELE with the angels?"

A 2nd thing I'd like to point out is tunniel.

3rd thing would be SEELE going into Mark 09 in Q. 09 was shown to have ridiculous regenerative properties, only seen and assumed to exist with angels(they carry the fruit of life). Yet SEELE was somehow placed into the piloting role of 09 and 09 expressed several regenerative facilities.

Before this, Gendou gave a farewell speech, which disqualified SEELE from being Lilin. And even though in this speech, he said they carried the fruit of knowledge, he also said that the form of their soul had changed.

I think SEELE forming a partnership with an angelic function is suspicious.

[Sachi]

3rd thing would be SEELE going into Mark 09 in Q. 09 was shown to have ridiculous regenerative properties, only seen and assumed to exist with angels(they carry the fruit of life). Yet SEELE was somehow placed into the piloting role of 09 and 09 expressed several regenerative facilities.

Before this, Gendou gave a farewell speech, which disqualified SEELE from being Lilin. And even though in this speech, he said they carried the fruit of knowledge, he also said that the form of their soul had changed.

I want to point out that these highlighted parts are pure speculation. The topic of Mark 09 and the Seele program has been discussed here: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/16541/Mark09-and-the-SEELE-program/

As for Seele being disqualified as Lilin, that's up to interpretation. I'd say it's more heavily implied that Seele had once been human, but had since cast off their human form in favor for an immortal existence as the monoliths we're familiar with. That discussion continues here: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/13785/Seele/

[Dima]

^
This doesn't prove that SEELE can control the behavior of the Angels. Mark 09 is supposed to be one of the 4 Adams and it's speculated that SEELE had all the 4 Adams in their possession since the 2nd Impact.

Mark 09
Eva Unit 01
Eva Unit 13
Mark 06

[Cosmo11]

^
Mark 09 is an Adams vessel. Only Mark 06 and unit 13 are confirmed as Adams. Also there are still 4 missing units so two of them could be the last Adams.

[unitM]

I want to point out that these highlighted parts are pure speculation. The topic of Mark 09 and the Seele program has been discussed here: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/16541/Mark09-and-the-SEELE-program/

As for Seele being disqualified as Lilin, that's up to interpretation. I'd say it's more heavily implied that Seele had once been human, but had since cast off their human form in favor for an immortal existence as the monoliths we're familiar with. That discussion continues here: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/13785/Seele/

When 02 aims for Mark 09(rooted into Wunder) and penetrates it's core with a really well-aimed shot, the core is shielded by a SEELE mask. This is further made explicit because Asuka comments on it directly afterwards. The inside of Mark 09 was sealed tight from any control with SEELE symbols - again, not in any way is this hidden. I'm not drawing any unwarranted conclusions here: SEELE was somehow directly connected to Mark 09, in a way where a SEELE mask was responsible for blocking Asuka's shot and forcing her to change strategies. That was all on screen.

This is Gendo's farewell script from the Evageeks Q translation:
[code:1]01:16:24 {Gendo} It is time to amend the Dead Sea Scrolls' contract.
01:16:29 {Gendo} This is farewell.
01:16:33 {Gendo} Though you have all changed the form of your souls,
01:16:37 {Gendo} you are still creatures blessed with the Fruit of Knowledge.
01:16:41 {Gendo} Though you could have lived for an eternity,
01:16:44 {Gendo} you can escape the fate of death no more than us.
01:16:50 {Gendo} To advance the evolution of the flock burdened by death,
01:16:54 {Gendo} you gave us the gift of civilization.
01:17:00 {Gendo} On behalf of humanity, I thank you.
01:17:04 {Gendo} Let death return your souls to where they belong.
01:17:12 {Gendo} The long desired Human Instrumentality Project,
01:17:15 {Gendo} and the inevitable deicide, will be completed by me.
01:17:19 {Gendo} Rest assured.[/code:1]

I think you are being stubborn by suggesting that Gendou does not draw an "us" and "them" separation(the us being humanity, them SEELE). Gendo immediately distinguishes SEELE from humanity right in the script.

The piloting thing, fine, I can let that slide. Though it certainly looks like they're in charge of Mark 09 from a certain point onwards, I can let it ride as a jump in conclusions.

[Sachi]

When 02 aims for Mark 09(rooted into Wunder) and penetrates it's core with a really well-aimed shot, the core is shielded by a SEELE mask. This is further made explicit because Asuka comments on it directly afterwards. The inside of Mark 09 was sealed tight from any control with SEELE symbols - again, not in any way is this hidden. I'm not drawing any unwarranted conclusions here: SEELE was somehow directly connected to Mark 09, in a way where a SEELE mask was responsible for blocking Asuka's shot and forcing her to change strategies. That was all on screen.

Yes, and it's called a program. The Seele program is explicitly in control of the Mark.09, but the program is never stated to be Seele itself. Assuming that the program literally is Seele is all speculation. The program could have just been a failsafe for them to insure Fourth Impact went through how they had intended, and that they truly did die when Gendo pulled the plug on them. This would make sense, since Seele is a suicide cult and they needed to have their souls released to participate in Instrumentality. If you would like to continue on this point, let's do so in the proper thread.

I think you are being stubborn by suggesting that Gendou does not draw an "us" and "them" separation(the us being humanity, them SEELE). Gendo immediately distinguishes SEELE from humanity right in the script.

I agree that it's a perfectly valid interpretation, but so is the side that I'm arguing. The thread I linked goes pretty in depth on both sides of the issue.

[Dima]

Yes, and it's called a program. The Seele program is explicitly in control of the Mark.09, but the program is never stated to be Seele itself. Assuming that the program literally is Seele is all speculation. The program could have just been a failsafe for them to insure Fourth Impact went through how they had intended, and that they truly did die when Gendo pulled the plug on them. This would make sense, since Seele is a suicide cult and they needed to have their souls released to participate in Instrumentality. If you would like to continue on this point, let's do so in the proper thread.

The program was developed by SEELE and was installed by SEELE in Mark 09. The program activates automatically in certain conditions and as you say the program is not SEELE itself since they truly did die (truth is they have been dead as human beings since ages ago).

But i fail to see where is the connection between the SEELE controlling the angels and the SEELE controlling the Adams.

Yes i know that Adam(s) is an angel but i don't consider him in the same league as for example Ramiel. He is clearly superior and more powerful. And i doubt that SEELE could for example take an angel (Ramiel again) and reform him into an EVA.

For me Adam(s) is a special case of angel.

[unitM]

The program was developed by SEELE and was installed by SEELE in Mark 09. The program activates automatically in certain conditions and as you say the program is not SEELE itself since they truly did die (truth is they have been dead as human beings since ages ago).

But i fail to see where is the connection between the SEELE controlling the angels and the SEELE controlling the Adams.

Yes i know that Adam(s) is an angel but i don't consider him in the same league as for example Ramiel. He is clearly superior and more powerful. And i doubt that SEELE could for example take an angel (Ramiel again) and reform him into an EVA.

For me Adam(s) is a special case of angel.

I also feel that Adams are much more powerful and distinct Angels, but something to keep in mind is that in NGE, Adam was just a fossil. It wasn't by any means hard to control in it's fossilized state. Gendo even had no problems with shoving it in his hand. I don't think it's too hard to see SEELE having control of one then.

[Asj]

I also feel that Adams are much more powerful and distinct Angels, but something to keep in mind is that in NGE, Adam was just a fossil. It wasn't by any means hard to control in it's fossilized state. Gendo even had no problems with shoving it in his hand. I don't think it's too hard to see SEELE having control of one then.

Wasn't this what Adam looked like during 2I ?

SPOILER: Show

[unitM]

Wasn't this what Adam looked like during 2I ?

SPOILER: Show

Yeah. And the result of containing it was Second Impact. I am aware of that, but like I said, in it's fossilized state, there's nothing it can do. It's not like it has no weakness. One can even argue that the way it behaved in NGE was in the lesser domain of the Angels.