Did Gendo Betray Seele [Split]

[qu4d]

[Split from "Are Seele the FAR?". - OMF]

Just one question to clarify.

Gendo's actions in 3.0 were a betrayal, right? He lied to SEELE and let them believe, that he is still working for them to achieve their goal. And they believed him and were fine with "being switched off."

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I think so. I mean, his actions at the end of Ha were certainly that of betrayal. I can’t believe that Seele completely neutered him during the 14 year time skip.

[ElMariachi]

Just one question to clarify.

Gendo's actions in 3.0 were a betrayal, right? He lied to SEELE and let them believe, that he is still working for them to achieve their goal. And they believed him and were fine with "being switched off."

Yes, he completely betrayed them, the Fourth Impact that was ultimately averted was SEELE's last ditch at trying to initiate the HIP, and Gendo had a hand at preventing it from happening while making them believe that everything was still going as planned.

He and Fuyu even explicitly confirms this at the end of the movie, in case it wasn't clear enough:

01:27:35 {Fuyutsuki} Nearly everything went as Seele had intended.
01:27:38 {Gendo} Even so, we eliminated Seele's boy and guided Eva-13 to its Awakening.
01:27:46 {Gendo} Captain Katsuragi's actions are also within expectations.
01:27:49 {Gendo} This will do for now.

[Zoop]

So Third impact was supposed to be THE impact that Seele wished, right? It somehow failed (Gendo made sure of that, or an angel interfered). This would then cause Seele to become reliant on Gendo (because the whole world got f*cked up and turned against Nerv, most probably).

Without Gendo they would probably never be able to perform Final Impact and it gave Gendo the position to betray them. How this exactly played out, I really hope they clarify this one day (although I doubt it it would be in Final, since it's already in the past and not really relevant for future developments).


Oh and Sorrow seriously needs to chill out and stop writing entire bookworks of offtopic bs.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Well, we’re not sure about Third Impact. “Near Third Impact” (or “N3I”) occurred at the end of 2.22, and that was all Gendo’s doing. Seele wanted nothing to do with that Near Impact. Third Impact may or may not have continued between films 2 and 3, and what was in Eva Q was Fourth Impact, which appeared for a time to be what Seele wanted until Gendo succeeded in getting rid of “Seele’s Boy.” (Presumably Kaworu.)

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

This is actually a topic I've been wanting to address for some time as well. I should note a post made in the original thread (Let's please try to keep the discussion more civil here)

Gendo's speech to Seele  SPOILER: Show

[wkimg width=400]File:Eva3-33_C1282_b.jpg[/wkimg]

Gendo:
It is time to amend the Dead Sea Scrolls’ contract.
This is farewell.

Though you have changed the form of your souls, you are still creatures blessed with the Fruit of Knowledge.
Though you could have lived for an eternity, you can escape the fate of death no more than us.
To advance the evolution of the flock burdened by death, you gave us civilization.
On behalf of humanity, I thank you.
Let death return your souls to where they belong.

The long desired Human Instrumentality Project, and the inevitable decide, will be completed by me.
Rest assured.

Seele 01:
Our wishes have come to fruition.
Good. All is well now.

We wish for Instrumentality, the peaceful purification of all souls.

The entire speech seems rather sensitive to me. He thanks them on behalf of humanity, he addresses how they are still essentially human (blessed with the fruit of knowledge) and that though he is to change the agreement somewhat he assures them that they are to be happy with the result and even bids them farewell. Note that what you used as a guideline was imaginative or sensitivity. Both need not be met. Though I would say his wording is rather more imaginative than it had to be too.

I find myself in agreement with Sorrow here. Gendo seems to part on good terms with Seele, and they seem fairly contented with the way things have (apparently) turned out. Either they are not aware of the twists and turns happening in Dogma, or perhaps they simply do not care.

This raises the question of whether he has really "betrayed" them or not. While my gut feeling says yes, the nature of this betrayal seems rather ambiguous? Could Seele be aware of his intentions with Fuyutsuki anyway? Is Gendo simply carrying out their original plan in a different way? Is Gendo still the ultimate villain of the piece?

[ElMariachi]

Well, in the farewell scene, SEELE-01, says that they "wish for Instrumentality, the peaceful purification of all souls.", then when Fourth Impact is averted, Fuyu comments that:

01:27:35 {Fuyutsuki} Nearly everything went as Seele had intended.
01:27:38 {Gendo} Even so, we eliminated Seele's boy and guided Eva-13 to its Awakening.
01:27:46 {Gendo} Captain Katsuragi's actions are also within expectations.
01:27:49 {Gendo} This will do for now.

Fuyu comments that SEELE almost got what they "wished" (Instrumentality, see SEELE-01's word above), and Gendo's answer clearly means that the elimination of Kaworu and awakening of EVA-13 was made in spite of SEELE's plans, meaning that neo-NERV has its own agenda, and that everything that happened went according to their plan.

So for me it's clear that Gendo betrayed SEELE, he just was genre savvy enough to don't go to gloat at their face that he double-crossed them and that they can't do anything to stop him anymore, instead choosing to keep the masquerade to the very end, even if it's less satisfying.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

However, the only parts of Seele's plan which Gendo appears to be pointing out as having gone wrong are that Kaworu was "eliminated" and Eva-13 was awakened. It's worth noting that Eva-13 only awakens after Seele are deactivated. But Kaworu says that he is becoming the 13th angel before this.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Yeah, let’s not forget that as they were dying/being defeated/whatever was going on Seele was still like “All is well.” (It was even their last words.) They were clearly okay with this development.

This makes me wonder if actually killing both Lilith and Seele weren’t a part of the original Dead Sea Scroll’s contract they discussed in Jo. Simply because the pilots are told to protect Lilith for a while doesn’t mean that it needs to stay that same way forever, or that the pilots need to know when the terms of the contract will be met.

[Sorrow]

So for me it's clear that Gendo betrayed SEELE, he just was genre savvy enough to don't go to gloat at their face that he double-crossed them and that they can't do anything to stop him anymore, instead choosing to keep the masquerade to the very end, even if ti's less satisfying.

I kind of agree. I would just like to add that I think his sentiment and thankfulness toward SEELE are genuine, not just a façade. Even if he does change the plan to suit his own he doesn't want to gloat or part on resentment. After all, even Gendo couldn't have come this far if it weren't for SEELE.

[Bagheera]

However, the only parts of Seele's plan which Gendo appears to be pointing out as having gone wrong are that Kaworu was "eliminated" and Eva-13 was awakened. It's worth noting that Eva-13 only awakens after Seele are deactivated. But Kaworu says that he is becoming the 13th angel before this.

Those are kind of major parts of the plan, though.

Yeah, let’s not forget that as they were dying/being defeated/whatever was going on Seele was still like “All is well.” (It was even their last words.) They were clearly okay with this development.

That presumes they knew what was really going on, which is doubtful.