Loop Theories and How They Work

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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NemZ
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Postby NemZ » Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:17 pm

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Postby Sorrow » Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:24 pm

The point isn't me still taking a dig at this person - I wasn't taking a dig at them at all. That's simply overlooking what I'm saying to Mr. Hodges.

Imagining the person in question had simply decided to step away from the argument, as everyone at the time assumed (even the defender himself), it wasn't okay for them to have decided to "move on" after what was said. Something the defender made out to be okay.

pwhodges wrote:I'm not surprised at being criticised for defending someone who for whatever reason is not present to defend himself.
When you said what you said, you didn't say it under the knowledge that they can not defend themselves. You said it under the knowledge that they don't need to explain themselves. That's the point.

Not to mention it's ignoring the rest of what I had to say on other matters. It's not a post directed at Bagheera, it's a post to Mr. Hodges and what he said and thought.
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Postby Ah Q » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:00 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Actually, what interests me is why people are so keen for there to be a loop at all. What are they trying to prove? It would just take the story another step further from the reality that it would seem (as a story with a moral) to be an analogue of.

It's not about proving anything. I am speaking only for myself, but as I've said elsewhere here, I don't have anything invested in the loop theory being "true." In all likelihood, all theories for NTE will be disproved in the next film. The mystery is part of what keeps me engaged with Evangelion.

For me, the challenge is more about coming up with a theory that coherently explains the universe we see in NTE. The main catalyst for the various loop theories, in my mind, is Kaworu.

Kaworu's lines have been repeated countless times in this forum, but for the sake of convenience, here are the main ones:
    - "Not the Third again. You never change, do you?"

    - "This time I'll show you true happiness."
Anno presumably inserted these lines for a reason. They suggest that Kaworu already knew Shinji before emerging from his coffin on the moon (which is, uh, pretty odd in and of itself), and that he had previously tried but failed to show Shinji "true happiness."

Of course, that raises a number of questions. When did Kaworu first meet Shinji, and how did it happen? In what way did Kaworu previously try to show Shinji "true happiness," and why did he fail? It is apparent from Kaworu's other lines in the films that he had not yet met (this iteration) of Shinji Ikari.

The loop theory is simply a way of giving meaning to these lines.

Sure, there are other possibilities. Maybe Shinji knew an earlier clone of Kaworu? Maybe Kaworu's just spewing mysterious shit that ultimately doesn't mean anything? Maybe something else altogether? The point is, we do not yet know enough to validate or discard any of the various theories.

Of course, some theories are less likely than others. For reasons that have been stated in this thread, the EoE/NTE sequel theory is not very compelling. But I have not yet seen any compelling reason to reject all looping theories.

What I have seen is a lot of venom and hyperbole. And I just don't understand it. Why does this evoke such strong feelings? Why must we deride those who propose various loop theories (or even sequel theories) as "fucking stupid," "desperate," or "liars"? Come on, we aren't talking about matters of life or death. We aren't debating the existence of God. We are talking about a fictional anime! And a pretty far-out one at that. Not to mention the fact that this anime's creator has surprised (or, more cynically, trolled) his fans numerous times over the past two decades.

What I'm saying is, those of us who are intrigued by the loop theories are simply trying to explain certain elements of NTE for which the films have not yet provided an adequate explanation. It's that simple. There's nothing nefarious, or desperate, or stupid, or dishonest about this.

So let's breathe, people.

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Postby Jäeger » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:15 pm

It's not about a theory, it's that if you want to the teory taken seriously you have to use arguments which don't lack common sense. I don't agree with the loop/reincarnation theory, I don't like it, but the way qu4d has explaned his theory doesn't defy common sense.
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Postby Ah Q » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:20 pm

View Original PostJäeger wrote:It's not about a theory, it's that if you want to the teory taken seriously you have to use arguments which don't lack common sense.


Who is arguing with you about that? I think some version of the loop theory makes sense, given what we know so far.

You seem hung up on the sequel theory. I don't think anyone here is seriously defending it. Everyone seems to acknowledge that any evidence for a sequel theory is weak at best.

My point is that there's no reason to be dickish with people who propose any particular theory, even if it's a weak theory, and even if you are not at all persuaded by it.

Edit: By way of disclosure, I have played with the notion of a sequel theory at various times. But for the reasons stated in this thread, NTE provides little support for it, and there's no clear way to make the jump from EoE to the beginning of 1.11. I have come to conclude that, whatever appeal the theory might have in the abstract, it is not compelling. But I don't think those who may support it are liars or "fucking stupid."

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Postby Jäeger » Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:23 pm

View Original PostAh Q wrote: But I don't think those who may support it are liars or "fucking stupid."


Neither I do, but most arguments supporting that theory it's what they are after being debunked one by one.

I've told you : I respect the "time loop" (I'll have to accept your distorted concept or this will be chaos) theory but only when they don't lack common sense.

As an example. People have argued for years about S/A relationship in EoE, and most of them are legitimate. But then comes a guy who ships him with another character and cries that Shinji is not sexually attracted to her and those who don't agree with him are...well, I better stop here . The thing is : Do I have to be respectful to somebody who doesn't expose a legitimate theory but a blatant lie which denies what the show is clearly explicit about???
Last edited by Jäeger on Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ah Q » Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:27 pm

View Original PostJäeger wrote:I've told you : I respect the "time loop" (I'll have to accept your distorted concept or this will be chaos) theory but only when they don't lack common sense.


I don't see how we disagree, then.

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Postby Jäeger » Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:31 pm

View Original PostAh Q wrote:I don't see how we disagree, then.


We dont disagree, maybe I'm too harsh. The thing it's that keep using arguments which have been debunked one by one it's just stupid. At least you should give me that credit.
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Postby Ah Q » Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:45 pm

View Original PostJäeger wrote:We dont disagree, maybe I'm too harsh. The thing it's that keep using arguments which have been debunked one by one it's just stupid. At least you should give me that credit.


I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. We seem to agree on the following:
    - The manga involved a post-Instrumentality rebirth on the same earth. The MPEs were still there, but for some reason Japan is once again experiencing seasons. No time travel.

    - The sequel theory is weak at best, and totally wrong at worst. The red ocean can be explained in-universe, and there's no clear way to bridge the gap between EoE and 1.11.

    - Some form of loop theory is at least compatible with what we know about NTE so far, although some are not persuaded by it.

    - Any loop theory needs to comport with common sense.

    - We don't really know what is up with the Rei apparitions.
Please let me know if I am missing something.

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Postby Jäeger » Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:47 pm

View Original PostAh Q wrote:I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. We seem to agree on the following:
    - The manga involved a post-Instrumentality rebirth on the same earth. The MPEs were still there, but for some reason Japan is once again experiencing seasons. No time travel.

    - The sequel theory is weak at best, and totally wrong at worst. The red ocean can be explained in-universe, and there's no clear way to bridge the gap between EoE and 1.11.

    - Some form of loop theory is at least compatible with what we know about NTE so far, although some are not persuaded by it.

    - Any loop theory needs to comport with common sense.

    - We don't really know what is up with the Rei apparitions.
Please let me know if I am missing something.


Never said you were the stupid one, that is the problem :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Sorry if it was your impression. :wink:
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Postby Monk Ed » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:02 pm

:kaos_bow: Sorry to anyone who feels they still have something to say for my putting this thing on pause, but it's really hard to keep up with and there've been complaints. It looks like people have sufficiently aired their views on the topic anyway. I might unlock it after a review of what's transpired since last I checked in, and maybe some trimming of the more distracting personal back-and-forth. If I decide that it should stay locked I'll update this post.

EDIT: The temporary lock has become an indefinite one. (Indefinite not being code for "permanent".)
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