Loop Theories and How They Work

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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ChaddyManPrime
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:53 pm

It'd be funny if Rebuild turns out to be one of those false dreams that Shinji was observing with Lilith, seeing for himself that he can't Redo.
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Postby Chuckman » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:41 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I don't really buy into this theory, but I will state that this is absolutely true. I've had dreams in which I wasn't a charecter at all, just an observer. Hell, I've had dreams that were entirely in prose with no sensory data at all. Dreams be weird, yo.


It's hard to say how you dream because remembering dreams is actually quite rare, but most of the dreams I remember having don't involve me at all. I exist as a discrete point of view with no interaction with anything.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:29 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Jornophelanthas' hypothesis is the most in-depth argument for the loop/sequel theory I have yet seen, and it pleases me to see that someone else sees the Nietzschean themes in Rebuild (although they may simply look Nietzschean to us, Westerners; Nietzsche did not invent the concept of reincarnation, either individual or universal) but misses a key element.


Wait, what theory? He's just meandering all over the place without actually saying anything. I'm all for Q (and the whole of the ENT series) being an Instrumentality fantasy, but Jorno isn't making a compelling argument here; he's just throwing out symbol after symbol in the hope that something sticks (and his argument that Shinji's the only one showing empathy is bullshit, since everyone else is showing empathy and Shinji's being a selfish prick, as usual. Yes, there are reasons, but c'mon man, this is stupid).
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Postby Chuckman » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:30 pm

I don't agree with the empathy bits but it is all a dream.
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Postby El Squibbonator » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:58 pm

Much as I think Rebuild as a fantasy would be cool, I doubt it's the case. It's been established that Rebuild is simply a separate canon from the TV series--nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby Chuckman » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:07 pm

View Original PostEl Squibbonator wrote:It's been established that Rebuild is simply a separate canon from the TV series--nothing more, nothing less.


These words mean nothing. 'Canon' is arbitrary nerd gibberish. Free your mind.

Anything that bases itself around 'what happened' is flawed thinking. None of it happened. It's a cartoon.
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Statistical fact: Cops will never pull over a man with a huge bong in his car. Why? They fear this man. They know he sees further than they and he will bind them with ancient logics. —Marty Mikalski

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:09 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:because remembering dreams is actually quite rare


Huh? I remember most of my dreams (e.g. what I dream about before I wake up or awaken and fall asleep again) in vivid detail.

Also, NTE being an EoE Instrumentality-style side effect if done right would be interesting, but I don't really see it happening either. Like El Squib (mind if I call ya that?) wrote above, NGE and NTE being separate stories has been pretty well-established.
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:51 pm

Well Lilith/Rei did state that there is only one true reality and everything else is just a bunch dreams to get lost in to escape it.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:27 am

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Also, NTE being an EoE Instrumentality-style side effect if done right would be interesting, but I don't really see it happening either. Like El Squib (mind if I call ya that?) wrote above, NGE and NTE being separate stories has been pretty well-established.


I don't think it's likely, but if it is and Instrumentality fantasy it would be a separate story, just like the AU in 26 was. That said, this would make the whole exercise pointless, so it probably isn't the case (Anno has more class than that). But even so.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Chuckman » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:49 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I don't think it's likely, but if it is and Instrumentality fantasy it would be a separate story, just like the AU in 26 was. That said, this would make the whole exercise pointless, so it probably isn't the case (Anno has more class than that). But even so.


It wouldn't make it pointless. There are lots of stories that take place entirely in dreams that still have a point.
the prophecy is true

Statistical fact: Cops will never pull over a man with a huge bong in his car. Why? They fear this man. They know he sees further than they and he will bind them with ancient logics. —Marty Mikalski

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:15 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:It wouldn't make it pointless. There are lots of stories that take place entirely in dreams that still have a point.


If we wind up getting a new ending after EoE I guess there might be something to it, but given that final scene on the beach I can't see how an "ENT series is all a dream" scenario would add anything to the NGE/EoE narrative. Dreams only have a point if they influence what comes after. If they don't . . . :shrug:
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:42 pm

There's a lot of stuff that EoE didn't show us, so maybe this helps fill in the gaps.
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Postby Chuckman » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:41 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:If we wind up getting a new ending after EoE I guess there might be something to it, but given that final scene on the beach I can't see how an "ENT series is all a dream" scenario would add anything to the NGE/EoE narrative. Dreams only have a point if they influence what comes after. If they don't . . . :shrug:


NGE was a dream, too.
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Postby Sorrow » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:25 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:It's hard to say how you dream because remembering dreams is actually quite rare, but most of the dreams I remember having don't involve me at all. I exist as a discrete point of view with no interaction with anything.
I don't think it's rare to remember one's dream - in fact it seems common. I've had dreams in the first and third person perspectives; some where you feel you're in genuine danger. Not constantly confined to the role of spectator - though it has happened.

As for the actual nature of rebuild: I don't think it's "well established" to be a separate canon and nor would making it a dream render it pointless. A character's dream is no less important than the character itself.

It could easily be a separate canon meant to be more--or even less--accessible or it could somehow connect to the original via "possible reality" by way of instrumentality visions that Shinji, and/or the others, experience; it could also be history repeating itself with things taking a different course due to characters "in-the-know" - such as Kaworu; who seemed to know of a previous version of events.

I think it's at least hinted at to be connected to the original somehow. Given the red sea, outline of a giant of some sort; blood stained moon and Kaworu's comments, it seems to have been implied as such since 1.0. A time "loop" of sorts was my initial impression upon watching it. Now I'm not so certain that's the case, though, I still think it's a strong possibility.

Or of course it could be taking place in an alternate reality--people seem to love this story mechanism for some reason--but that amounts to being a separate canon, really.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:43 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:Given the red sea, outline of a giant of some sort; blood stained moon


If it helps clarify anything:

Red sea is from Second Impact (Maya's 1.0 comments), chalk outline is "something from the remains of Second Impact" (Eva 1.0 Entry File 1 book) and the blood stained Moon was going to be due to the Second Impact Adams (scrapped storyboard of the Adams in Misato's 2.0 flashback).

Kaworu's line weirdness is the only thing that really needs explaining.
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Postby Chuckman » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:04 pm

The in-universe explanations mean nothing. What are the films trying to tell us by including these constant callbacks to the series? It's like they need to be subtle about the flicks being a remake of Eva.
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Statistical fact: Cops will never pull over a man with a huge bong in his car. Why? They fear this man. They know he sees further than they and he will bind them with ancient logics. —Marty Mikalski

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:25 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:The in-universe explanations mean nothing.


:???: Dude, c'mon.

What are the films trying to tell us by including these constant callbacks to the series? It's like they need to be subtle about the flicks being a remake of Eva.


That's a legit question, but claiming the in-universe explanations don't mean anything is a bridge too far. There's a reason Anno offers in-universe explanations along with the callbacks. You gotta consider all the evidence, bro.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:21 am

I honestly think he's just being a lying creator to catch us off guard so as if not to ruin the surprise, it's all smoke and mirrors.
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Postby Sachi » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:58 am

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:I honestly think he's just being a lying creator to catch us off guard so as if not to ruin the surprise, it's all smoke and mirrors.

Lying is wrong, but ambiguously playing all side and withholding your true intentions until the end is a great method. Many art forms employ a fundamental technique of tension and release; in storytelling we see it with rising action/climax/resolution, etc. By keeping the truth ambiguous and throwing in all these callbacks to the original series, Anno is creating tension within the audience that's going to build until he finally makes his big reveal (which he may never do, because it's Anno).
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Postby andreh » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:36 am

Just a random thought about this theory: someone thinks it might be possible that 4 Adams are the 4 missing Evas (EVA07, 10, 11 and 12) covered by the same "angelic fire" of EVA01 in the end of 2.22 (ie, in pseudo-evolution state) and that somehow traveled in time?
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