Does 3.0 defeat the purpose of Rebuild in a way?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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[SPOILERS] Does 3.0 defeat the purpose of Rebuild in a way?

Postby VictoryStar » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:28 pm

I know this is a controversial statement especially because while I didn't enjoy the new direction at first I began to really enjoy this movie after finally seeing it and now I ask does anyone else still feel like this movie defeated the purpose of Rebuild?

I thought from the beginning that Rebuild was supposed to be a retelling of the series in a new and unique way but it still covered the same events more or less and was new enough for people who've seen it already to still be able to enjoy it but with enough old material that it still brought forth a sense of nostalgia too.

This movie is so radically different from the original series at this point that in no way still evokes any of those old memories asides from the feeling of "What did I just watch?" the later episodes/EoE brought forth. And a new fan will have no idea what's going on and what context to relate it to the original series.

I can't be the only one who thinks this right?

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:39 pm

Anno dithed the "retelling" plan somewhere along the way, the 2.0 CR already announced that 2.0 was "getting the homework out of the way" to get to brand new ballgames, they just didn't turn out the way we wanted them to.

I think we're getting to the meat, actually.

It's no longer just showing us the old message with different messages, it's expanding on them, in a way.
So, end of 2.0, Shinji finally got it, as he did in EoE and EoTV - inaction doesn't solve anything, so you should go out and at least try even if this brings the possibility of getting hurt/screwing up.
3.0 seems to follow to the conclusion of that: "But what If he really DOES screw up"?

In a a way, 3.0 feels like it could be more of a sequel to EoE, especially the whole post-impact setting.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Does 3.0 defeat the purpose of Rebuild in a w

Postby CJD » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:39 pm

View Original PostVictoryStar wrote:I thought from the beginning that Rebuild was supposed to be a retelling of the series in a new and unique way but it still covered the same events more or less and was new enough for people who've seen it already to still be able to enjoy it but with enough old material that it still brought forth a sense of nostalgia too.


I would not be surprised if halfway through development the "purpose" of Rebuild changed. I mean, it happened with the TV series too and that only lasted 6 months, Rebuild's been in development for something like 5 years.

Edit: And apparently it did.

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Postby Electric Sachiel » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:47 pm

While this movie has effectively gone in a totally different direction than the original NGE, I think its honestly a breath of fresh air. Yes the original intention of Rebuild was to retell the the story of NGE in a more accessible and entertaining manner. It was also promised that we'd get some new takes and spins on the original story. Over the years we saw little by little that each progressive movie began to deviate away from the source material. 3.0 while very different I think still retains the original spirit of the characters, mecha, imagery and source material.

In broad strokes I think Anno and the rest of Khara are still achieving what they promised to do. Of course they have changed the details of how they're getting there what with the chaotic and far out of left field plot developments seen in 3.0. And anyways isn't the completely new and original plot developments seen in 3.0 satisfying some of the key goals with the Rebuild series? Anno and Khara have now managed to make this series more accessible to the masses than ever before!

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:55 pm

View Original PostElectric Sachiel wrote:3.0 while very different I think still retains the original spirit of the characters, mecha, imagery and source material.

The mecha are actually closer to their true form, raw Yamashita's madness, I love them.

About the topic itself, wasn't it expectable? Honestly I was puzzled by people who thought that this was going to end with Shinji killing Kaworu with Eva-01 a la episode 24, NME was set to follow a progressive introduction of original elements and Q was clearly going to be the definitive departure from the TV series, the whole set-up was hardly comparable to the TV series by the ending of Ha.
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Postby StormSky92 » Thu May 23, 2013 7:18 pm

I really liked the third movie, but I feel like it lost a lot of what really made Evangelion different. This movie felt more like a mecha-action series with religious themes, and it lost the psychological, character evaluation elements that really made the original series good.

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Postby Guy Nacks » Thu May 23, 2013 11:10 pm

View Original PostStormSky92 wrote:I really liked the third movie, but I feel like it lost a lot of what really made Evangelion different. This movie felt more like a mecha-action series with religious themes, and it lost the psychological, character evaluation elements that really made the original series good.


There are those who say "well that was a TV series. These are movies. They don't have the time necessary to develop the characters as fully as the TV series."

To an extent, I agree. But it shouldn't be an excuse.

While I don't think the psychological, character eval., aspects have been eliminated per se, it's noticeably less than what we got in the TV series. We have no eps 16 or 20 where we get to see inside Shinji's mind and better understand all the inner turmoil that he's going through. We have no ep 22 where we see similar with Asuka, whose past in Rebuild is at this point is still largely unknown, but I have a theory about that. We have no Rei monologue from ep 14. The characters seem less interesting, because we aren't shown these kinds of things that make them seem more 3-dimensional and complex.

It wouldn't have been hard for them to include more stuff like this in Rebuild, they have almost no limitations on what they can do artistically because they have tons of money to work with. It's just a shame because with less limitations than NGE had, they've managed to make a work that hasn't seemed quite as fulfilling.
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Postby jackysee » Fri May 24, 2013 2:44 am

It's a rebuild, not a remake. SO that's something different.

An earlier interview with Anno revealed that he want to make EVA a big series like Gundam, which can have many further stories being developed not only by him, as well as other products and spin-offs. Rebuild acts as a demo to other to show it can be done. I guess that's why there are so many related products. (I've only got this interview in Chinese translation. Anyone got an English one?).

How can EVA become a big series? Making it more entertaining and an story that is easier to understand. That's the earliest claim we heard when the rebuild news come out. I personally think the 'repeatable' hint in 1.0 and 2.0 is somehow a 'device' for making series-stories.

Q somehow surprised me that it raises so many questions in the story plot, which I think cannot be easily explained even in the final movie. Some speculates that after 311, Anno changed his mind on the story and that's why Q is vastly different from 2.0 end trailer. So maybe his mind is changed after all?
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Postby TruthfulLie » Fri May 24, 2013 4:06 am

The very word "Rebuild" seems to suggest that it's more of a reboot than a remake in which case is totally makes sense seeing as there are many differences in key figures and the mechanics of Rebuild from the original. With that being said, I have my doubts regarding what Anno is trying to tell us through Rebuild is basically the same idea of the original. It may be similar but I doubt it will be exactly the same hence the tangent from the original. You question if this deviation may hinder understanding of Rebuild in relation to the original. But I think the better question to ask is "Does Rebuild have any direct correlation to the original to begin with?" and I'd like to say no, for now.

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri May 24, 2013 4:19 am

Take in account that "Rebuild of Evangelion" is a fan nickname for the movies, it was used once as the title of an extra in 1.11 and the name stuck. And I think Anno described this new version of Evangelion as rebuild only once in a very early interview.
The true name of the movies are "Evangelion New Theatrical Edition".
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Postby TruthfulLie » Fri May 24, 2013 4:38 am

True and at the same time since it was mentioned by Anno as a rebuild from the early stage to describe the project's nature, I don't think it's too far off to assume that it was a term to emphasize the project is a reboot in nature.

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri May 24, 2013 5:08 am

Many people think that NTE is in fact Evangelion but following what was Anno's original proposal for the story.
I don't remember what this proposal had, but some people found similarities with Rebuild's plot. One particular fanwankery was the mentioning of the "Ruins of Arqa", a very important place that holds many of the answers to the secrets about the lore, and how it could be the place Gendo, Fuyutsuki and the donkey visited in the 2.0 trailer for Q.
Maybe part of the crazy semi-organic technology neo-NERV possess(Nemesis Series, Mark.09 jetpack, the generation of EVA-13's second pair of arms...) comes from the knowledge gathered from that place.
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Postby amitakartok » Fri May 24, 2013 11:44 am

View Original Postjackysee wrote:An earlier interview with Anno revealed that he want to make EVA a big series like Gundam


...well, shit. If he really does that, I'm going to kiss his fucking foot.
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Postby Giji Shinka » Fri May 24, 2013 11:50 am

View Original Postjackysee wrote:
An earlier interview with Anno revealed that he want to make EVA a big series like Gundam, which can have many further stories being developed not only by him, as well as other products and spin-offs. Rebuild acts as a demo to other to show it can be done. I guess that's why there are so many related products. (I've only got this interview in Chinese translation. Anyone got an English one?).

How can EVA become a big series? Making it more entertaining and an story that is easier to understand. That's the earliest claim we heard when the rebuild news come out. I personally think the 'repeatable' hint in 1.0 and 2.0 is somehow a 'device' for making series-stories.

I don't know if i should joy or cry.

Also: This doesn't sound like Anno.
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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Fri May 24, 2013 11:53 am

View Original Postjackysee wrote:An earlier interview with Anno revealed that he want to make EVA a big series like Gundam, which can have many further stories being developed not only by him, as well as other products and spin-offs. Rebuild acts as a demo to other to show it can be done. I guess that's why there are so many related products. (I've only got this interview in Chinese translation. Anyone got an English one?).

I'd prefer if someone dug up the original Japanese and the source of where it appeared and when.
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Postby Nyanlathotep » Sat May 25, 2013 9:03 pm

I think Anno is trying to make the movie what he can while also making it something that can appeal to an international audience. One thing that constantly strikes me in the Rebuild films is how much they use conventional Hollywood blockbuster methodology.

Things that are told subtly in the original are told in a very straightforward way here. There are several specific sequences for example, especially in Q (Shinji walking while the various thoughts play through his mind) that are old conventions set up to hold the audiences hand, as if to say, "hey guys! This is a character study. These shots are here to reinforce that, just in case you thought this wasn't a character study." The original had something similar, but usually the approach was to show the thoughts instead of using the imagery to tell us that Shinji is thinking. The racing images, such as those at the ending of Episode 02 in the original are replaced with slow, zooming shots that focus on Shinji's head, the same basic message told in Hollywood visual language.

The pacing is also very Hollywood. All of the formative scenes missing could easily be here, even with the distillation that the theatrical edition requires. There've been 2:30 movies before. There have been slow movies before.The NTE Evangelion movies are as short as they are because of a deliberate pacing decision. The film gives us an ever-so-slight taste here and there of the psychology of the original, but really boiled down into, again, Hollywood psychologization. It's all built to flow around the action sequences this time, because action sequences are something that can be understood across national borders.

Not to say that NTE is poorly made or badly made. Anno clearly still knows what he's doing, and the Rebuild movies are really good for what they are. But what they are is something much simpler. But if the original Evangelion was Paprika, the New Evangelion is Inception: a smartly made story geared towards people who don't enjoy thinking too much.
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Postby Blue Monday » Sat May 25, 2013 9:12 pm

View Original PostTMBounty_Hunter wrote:
View Original Postjackysee wrote:An earlier interview with Anno revealed that he want to make EVA a big series like Gundam, which can have many further stories being developed not only by him, as well as other products and spin-offs. Rebuild acts as a demo to other to show it can be done. I guess that's why there are so many related products. (I've only got this interview in Chinese translation. Anyone got an English one?).

I'd prefer if someone dug up the original Japanese and the source of where it appeared and when.

I concur - Source please.
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Postby Mbryo » Sun May 26, 2013 1:23 am

Well the plot itself seems to have gotten even more complicated than in the original............................But I agree, Rebuild seems to have ditched some of the crazy psychological waka-waka of the original, which is a shame, but that was a neccessary sacrifice to revive Eva. After all things are different from what they were in the 1990s.
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Postby Psychodrake » Sun May 26, 2013 5:12 am

I think what 3.0 lost was the grounded nature of the series. NGE was a lot more terrifying in that it was happening on an Earth that still resembled something like our own, where 3.0 has drawn away from that, tearing the world into something unrecognizable. This makes the events a lot less hard-hitting in a way, but also allows them to do more crazy stuff.

Funnily enough, 2.0 for me was the closest to home. The aquarium, the running sequence tearing up all of the train lines, the Yamashita sequence with the solar panels opening up, the whole Zeruel sequence with refugee's making for safety are all very hard hitting scenes. 3.0's hardest hitting scenes were scenes LINKED to story-based events, such as seeing Lilith and the giant Rei head, seeing the giant red Eva's littering the city and seeing the aftermaths of 3I. In that respect, the story is gaining a more focussed plot, akin to more popular series, but retains the same feeling of the "Horror of the unknown" and desperation that Eva does so well.

But Earth and humanity is no more in 3.0, so it's only right to take it that way. NGE ended with humanities destruction, where as this trails on afterwards, showing the struggle to survive.

EDIT: Expanding on "allows them to do more crazy stuff", 3.0 has shown us the sort of freedom they have with a new time period like this. I think it's a great thing, the Eva's are very unique mecha and they will always be very unique mecha. I hate the 02/08 mash, but proof of concept =/= final design, and I do like Yamashita's Eva designs even if sometimes they're a bit silly. It's progression and an evolution of the idea.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun May 26, 2013 5:26 am

View Original PostPsychodrake wrote:I think what 3.0 lost was the grounded nature of the series. NGE was a lot more terrifying in that it was happening on an Earth that still resembled something like our own, where 3.0 has drawn away from that, tearing the world into something unrecognizable. This makes the events a lot less hard-hitting in a way, but also allows them to do more crazy stuff.

Funnily enough, 2.0 for me was the closest to home. The aquarium, the running sequence tearing up all of the train lines, the Yamashita sequence with the solar panels opening up, the whole Zeruel sequence with refugee's making for safety are all very hard hitting scenes. 3.0's hardest hitting scenes were scenes LINKED to story-based events, such as seeing Lilith and the giant Rei head, seeing the giant red Eva's littering the city and seeing the aftermaths of 3I. In that respect, the story is gaining a more focussed plot, akin to more popular series, but retains the same feeling of the "Horror of the unknown" and desperation that Eva does so well.

But Earth and humanity is no more in 3.0, so it's only right to take it that way. NGE ended with humanities destruction, where as this trails on afterwards, showing the struggle to survive.

And in my opinion its precisely the "grounded" nature of 1.0 and 2.0(and NGE on a meta-level) that makes 3.0 so shocking and terrifying : we know Tokyo-3 since a long time, the two previous movies had a lot of little scenes of the everyday life : the pilots at school, their life in Misato's apartment, the solar panels moving in the morning, the people going to school or to their works or tending the laundry in their balconies, the occasional guy in his NERV uniform hanging in a train station and chatting with friends after a day of hard work, or in 1.0 during Operation Yamashita, all the people gathered in the hills to see the battle against Ramiel, placing all their hopes in Shinji's shot with the Position Canon... all of this helped us to get attached to this city and its inhabitants, to hope that this time, unlike NGE, the city will survive and everyone will be spared the fate of mass tangification(even if they had the possibility to come back)...

And then 3.0 come, and we see the aftermath of 3I : not only is the city in ruins and abandoned, but something happened that mutated the landscape into a state that Shinji's wouldn't imagine even in his worst nightmares, its like he landed in another planet or dimension, or even fucking Hell, but the ruins are here to remind him that no, this supernatural place was Tokyo-3, and now its completely dead, they failed to protect it and worst, Shinji is told he is the one who did that, that not only he failed to protect everyone, but that he unleashed on them the unspeakable horrors that turned the landscape into what it is now and probably killed most of mankind, like he opened the gates of Hell itself on the city and the world...

No wonder the guy is a psychotic mess after that.
Last edited by ElMariachi on Sun May 26, 2013 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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