Gendo in 3.0 and beyond

[Bagheera]

Gendo stated that he fucked up and this is his punishment, and died without even changing his expression. Practically in defeated serenity. I still see this as hundred points more dignified over Shinji crying while attempting murder and giving it up just like he couldn't follow with instrumentality.

You're confusing stoicism and stubborn pride with dignity. Gendo died in shame, man. He was proven wrong in every respect and ultimately deemed unworthy of attaining any of his goals. Further, he admitted he was such a coward he couldn't even manage the very basic task of caring for his son. What about any of that is dignified? The fact he didn't pitch a fit about it doesn't mean he isn't still a coward and a disgrace.

As for Shinji, he had the guts to confront his issues and take the first steps toward resolving them, something Gendo never managed. That alone makes him worthy of respect. He's closer to dignity than Gendo ever was (though that's not saying much).

[Ray]

@Stillborn

So choosing to give humanity a sliver of hope after all they've done is hate and reject you is cowardice? So choosing to not hurt another human being instead of committing murder is undignified?

How to give Gendo an undignified death. . . have him be killed mid word while giving his big villain motivation speech.


Gendo: I. AM. INSTRUMEN-

(The Fist of Rei Q's Eva smashes through the ceiling, splatting him like a bug)

Of course, for me personally him living his life in a cell alone with the guilt of what he did to his own son would be my personal choice. Thats assuming he can even process feeling of guilt anymore.

[Giji Shinka]

Thats assuming he can even process feeling of guilt anymore.

Probably no.

But yeah, him slowly rotting and dying in a prison would be good choice too.

[Stillborn]

It seems I prefer stubborn pride over living on knees and kissing asses. Seems to stem from my nation's history drilled into my head

On case of Shinji... He lacks conviction to strike back. He fantasises about it like in Instrumentality, but lacks the strengh of character to actually do it, even when he is far beyond broken and boiling point.

What does that mean for him? That he will never be able to fight back. Every employer will easly rip him off once he detects him as a timid sucker, and Shinji will just allow it. Everyone who learns this will play him for a fool since Shinji will just let them.

Gendo instigates fear as someone you don't want as your enemy.

He may be called a bastard but he is nicknamed magnificent bastard and bastard king on the internet.

When internet want to name some great manipulator and mastermind. Someonme who would outplay the devil, Gendo appears right beside Yagami and Lelouch.

Shinji on other hand is internet's laughing stock. The epitome of wimpiness and uselessness. His mostly known "achievement" is fapping over Asuka and his ambigous gayness for Kaworu.

Just compare the legacy those two left internet wide (not only EGF) and tell me that Gendo really don't get to keep more dignity despite his failure than his son with his "victory".

[Bagheera]

It seems I prefer stubborn pride over living on knees and kissing asses. Seems to stem from my nation's history drilled into my head

Good think no one has to take the second option to opt out of the first!

On case of Shinji... He lacks conviction to strike back. He fantasises about it like in Instrumentality, but lacks the strengh of character to actually do it, even when he is far beyond broken and boiling point.

Yeah. That means he's not quite the asshole he could be.

Also, internet opinion, relevance.

[Stillborn]

Yeeeaaah... Because Internet is not a gathering of people voicing their opinions... Completly irrevelant. only EGF is the place where true believers exist...

[Bagheera]

Yeeeaaah... Because Internet is not a gathering of people voicing their opinions... Completly irrevelant. only EGF is the place where true believers exist...

No, you're just viewing a marginal slice of those voices rather than the whole of the show's audience. In Japan, where the bulk of the show's audience resides, the two characters are not perceived as you describe. So we have the generic opinions of Westerners who don't really get it on the one hand, and the opinions of people who were the target audience and who were paying attention on the other. Which are more likely to be relevant?

The only reason we're "true believers" around here is because we've investigated the show enough to understand what was being said, and to whom, and why. That makes a big difference in an opinion's ultimate credibility. And that's what people have been trying to explain to you for months now: go deeper. Start looking at things in context and stop worrying about the perceptions of people who aren't relevant to the discussion.

[Stillborn]

I went deeper. And this is what I found.

Also I'll stop for now, before we start arguing about peoples relevance and why certain peoples opinion is worth wiping an ass with.

[ElMariachi]

@El

But Gendo still dresses with style, is in winning position, have a robotic army on his command and Kaworu himself called him the king of lilin. He is in control and he damn knows this.

Well, of course he's winning, we're only at part three of four! The third movie of a quadrilogy and second of a trilogy are always where the bad guys are the stronger and closest to win, and the good guys situation the bleakest! How do you make the last part interesting if everything was already mostly resolved?
What would be the interest of FINAL if both Gendo and SEELE were completely defeated in 3.0? What would be the interest of the Return of the King if the One Ring were destroyed in The Two Towers? Or if Palpatine and Darth Vader were killed in The Empire Strikes Back? Or if Dumbledore had killed Voldemort during their duel in The Order of the Phoenix?

The bad guy is never defeated mid-way, that would take out the interest of the remaining of the story!

In EoE he died calmly. Admitting his defeat but without tantrums or as TvTropes calls it - "villianous breakdown". Even losing, he remained cool till the end. If he dies (instead of winning this time), he will die just like that - with style. Like everything he does.

He lost a limb, was pathetically begging Rei to come back while she was calmly floating to Lilith and fulfill her destiny the way she chose, and was finally lying defeated in the ground, refused the entry of "paradise" like a beggar is refuse to enter a discotheque by his own wife nonetheless, who only left a pair of legs left after she was done with him.

He lost, totally and pathetically, maybe he didn't had a graphical breakdown like a cliché villain, but he lost everything nonetheless and was left a pathetic, broken and mutilated man lying on the ground and with only waiting for the punishment for his foolishness to come, and his wife delivered. Hell even Kaworu and the three Reis joined and told him how much he sucked and had the ways to happy around him all this time, but refused them for his fantasy of being reunited with Yui!

It seems I prefer stubborn pride over living on knees and kissing asses. Seems to stem from my nation's history drilled into my head

On case of Shinji... He lacks conviction to strike back. He fantasises about it like in Instrumentality, but lacks the strengh of character to actually do it, even when he is far beyond broken and boiling point.

What does that mean for him? That he will never be able to fight back. Every employer will easly rip him off once he detects him as a timid sucker, and Shinji will just allow it. Everyone who learns this will play him for a fool since Shinji will just let them.

Shinji did strike back : the launched Third Impact, killed the whole planet in retaliation for everything he suffered... and then calmed down, looked at what Instrumentality was, decided that it sucked and wasn't worth it and that taking his rage at the rest of the world was unfair for those who didn't asked for anything, and stopped Instrumentality.

Gendo meanwhile spent the past 10 years of his life trying to fulfill a fantasy of being reunited by his waifu, and was ready to obliterate mankind to do it, and fuck them if they don't want to be absorbed inside a giant cyborg abomination, because he would be back with his waifu, that would had probably rejected him like garbage had he even succeeded.

An shining example for the future generations.

And he's even worse in 3.0, where he continued in his delusion even after the whole situation has gone to Hell and more, continuing to harass mankind with his army of robots, yet can't manage more than a 14 years long standstill against a ragtab group of mixed civilians and military with a flying fortress that can't fly and pretty much only their guts and ingenuity to fight back, not exactly a military genius...

Gendo instigates fear as someone you don't want as your enemy.

He may be called a bastard but he is nicknamed magnificent bastard and bastard king on the internet.

When internet want to name some great manipulator and mastermind. Someonme who would outplay the devil, Gendo appears right beside Yagami and Lelouch.

The Devil, a bastard who abandoned his son for a fantasy of reuniting with his death wife, an insane student with God complexes and a guy who didn't found better than being hated by the rest of the world by chaining the atrocity before letting himself being assassinated to reach something close to world peace... none of these guys are remotely close to people we should look for, the fact they had initial success doesn't take back the fact in the end they failed or only very marginally succeed while caused immense amounts of destruction on the way.


---
To go back in topic, 3.0 was Anno's opportunity to see just how far in his delusion and inhumanity Gendo can sink into, even with 14 more years of life than in NGE and the fucking apocalypse he still stubbornly cling to "the Plan"!
It's his flaws and shortcomings pushed to the extreme, he's almost a caricature of his bastard side from before the time skip and the original series, and I'm sure that to counterbalance how extreme in his flaws he sank, his defeat and breakdown will be all the more extreme in FINAL!

[Signer]

^
Oh yes, having to live a looooong life knowing that he failed to reunite with Yui and with only his thoughts of everyone he wronged for naught,Cruel Mercy in all its finesse!

I don't really know what fail would make Gendo give up after that "This will do for now ". So yes, please, just don't kill him.

And if it is so wrong to love someone more than the world, I assume Misato should not have risked everyone's lives keeping Shinji alive?

[ElMariachi]

^
Destroy neo-NERV's installations, as well as EVA-13, get rid of the Key of N, verify if all the four ADAMs are destroyed(Mark.06, EVA-13, maybe the Key of N and look for the last one) and finally put Gendo in a guarded cell, and that should be enough to prevent him or anyone else to trigger Instrumentality. Maybe also destroy EVA-01 once all the NS and MP-Evas are dealt with to be totally sure that HIP have no chances to start again.
And that's it, Gendo will be neutralized for good.

And if it is so wrong to love someone more than the world, I assume Misato should not have risked everyone's lives keeping Shinji alive?

There's an important difference here : Gendo is willingly and consciously planing to destroy the world to be reunited with Yui, and acted on this plan for the past 24 years! Being willing to do great sacrifices to get back a loved one can be understandable and even seen as noble, but there's a limit of what you're willing to sacrifice, past which you just becomes a danger for everyone around you and should be stopped, and Gendo passed that point a long time ago.

Now for Shinji and Misato it's different : Shinji is a kid, completely lost in this world totally different, manipulated by the enemy and who don't want to destroy the world(all the times he risked his life fighting the Angels are proof of that), and Misato isn't heartless and ruthless to the point of executing a kid whose fault is basically to don't know what's happening, just to be "on the sure side", she's not Gendo, she still has a part of humanity or else she would never had gained the trust and admiration of the rest of WILLE.

[Signer]

It leaves Fuyutsuki (poor guy - everyone forgets him), donkey and persuading guards to escape from the cell and time-traveling angels, L-barrier resisting teenagers and who knows what in that world, where Nemesis series is mass-produced to do some impacts.

Well, I am still not sure about meaning of Asuka's "So much fuss over one person. Right, Colonel Katsuragi?", but even if it was emotional for Misato and real decision for Gendo - should she have killed Shinji? Gendo also doesn't just like to kill people (at least in relevant "wouldn't do just for fun" sense) - he just wouldn't kill Yui (and now Rei) just to be "on the sure side". Yes, Misato got lucky with stopped 4th impact (of course she's winning, we're only at part three of four!) and Gendo wins quantitatively but Wunder's crew members' who died during Adam Vessel's attack hardly enjoyed that just because Shinji was manipulated a few times.

[ElMariachi]

Fuyutsuki seems to continue following Gendo because he's at the end of his life and invested too much to abandon, also because he knows that WILLE will have his head if he leaves neo-NERV, if Gndo is captured and his plans shattered, assuming Fuyutsuki survives I doubt that he'll try to rescue Gendo, but rather take the hermit path, maybe stay in the ruins of neo-NERV if the installations survided enough to provide food, and calmly wait his demise.

As for the meaning of Asuka's line, it's vert straightforward and ties with Misato's new motto : "prioritize the objective over human life". It simply means that with the new situation the world is in and the war against neo-NERV and SEELE, they can't afford to divert resources just for one person even if it's someone important, that's why for example the Wunder didn't stayed to try to find Asuka after Fourth Impact was stopped, they can't take the risk to be attacked by NS just for one person, even if it's an Eva pilot, and especially after all the damages the Wunder took during the battle.

But there's two important points to take into account here : first, the people of WILLE knows what they were getting into by joining, they signed for it and thus accept the consequences of directly fighting SEELE, in stark contrast to Shinji who was pretty much forcibly drafted by being presented by a moral dilemma (you pilot or this heavily injured girl do it) specifically designed so he would accept, and who would had been forced to pilot even if he refused by brainwashing him.
Second, even with that new and more ruthless doctrine, that doesn't mean that WILLE throw people to the meat-grinder by the dozen to attain any objective, minimizing the losses of lives are still an important objective (Misato ordered all non-vital personnel of the fleet to be transfered in the Wunder so they would be safe), that mean that losing human lives aren't a factor that obligatorily invalidate a plan anymore. The scene where Misato can't bring herself to detonate the Choker is here to show us that even if that world is harsher and everyone had to become more ruthless to survive, they are still humane and not unfeeling robots irremediable utilitarians ready to execute a manipulated 14 years old boy who doesn't know at all what's happening and never signed for this shit just because it would be more convenient for them.

Gendo did become that kind of person, someone ready to put people on extremely dangerous situations against their will and abandoning them to die once he's over with them. Hell 3.0 was pretty much Gendo doing exactly that to his own son!

[Signer]

And he will be at the end of his life even if Gendo is captured. I think he had many opportunities to take that hermit path during timeskip. But more importantly - he wouldn't abandon Yui too.

Yes, it probably just "Why we wasting our time explaining something to Shinji?", but maybe its about Misato's feelings to Shinji in general - maybe she defended him from accusations while he was in EVA 01 or one of the goals of retrieving of EVA 01 was to get Shinji, or maybe its even not about Shinji - something to do with Misato's father/revenge to angels or with Kadji. Or maybe its because Asuka didn't get such nice treatment from Misato when she awoke. And "Eva pilot" - is more part of the objective anyway.

They didn't sign for death for the Impact-boy. Killing Shinji would be minimizing the losses of lives. And not just "more convenient" - either they fight for some civilians and they didn't all die because of something that Misato didn't know or they fight for their lives and some of them have been lost. So not detonating the choker threatens WILLE's ultimate goal. And yes, it is humane and understandable that Misato just couldn't do it. But if it still wasn't wrong, then they all should have done the same for Yui and Rei.

[ElMariachi]

And he will be at the end of his life even if Gendo is captured. I think he had many opportunities to take that hermit path during timeskip. But more importantly - he wouldn't abandon Yui too.

Yes, he's still going with Gendo only for Yui's sake, he wasn't very subtle about it in 3.0. But if Gendo's plans are shattered, meaning absolutely no remaining ways to launch Instrumentality, so that being reunited with Yui becomes impossible, he probably won't try to free Gendo or continue the fight, but jsut surreder or flee and live the little time he has left as an hermit.

Yes, it probably just "Why we wasting our time explaining something to Shinji?", but maybe its about Misato's feelings to Shinji in general - maybe she defended him from accusations while he was in EVA 01 or one of the goals of retrieving of EVA 01 was to get Shinji, or maybe its even not about Shinji - something to do with Misato's father/revenge to angels or with Kadji. Or maybe its because Asuka didn't get such nice treatment from Misato when she awoke. And "Eva pilot" - is more part of the objective anyway.

Asuka's line was clearly full of spite and uttered in a way to hurt Shinji (even if there is truth about her statement), apparently she still had some "pent-up anger and grief" to vent-off. Although I don't think that she though that spending any amount of time with Shinji was a waste of time, after all Asuka herself "wasted time" going to see him, and not explaining anything to Shinji just out of spite would make WILLE looks like complete dicks.

But it doesn't change the fact that Misato not being able to detonate the Choker is here to show to the audience that WILLE are the good guys and still humane (Sakura and on a lesser extend Mari too had the same purpose), or else frankly the audience would stop caring for mankind's fate if everyone turned into corrupted assholes.

They didn't sign for death for the Impact-boy. Killing Shinji would be minimizing the losses of lives. And not just "more convenient" - either they fight for some civilians and they didn't all die because of something that Misato didn't know or they fight for their lives and some of them have been lost. So not detonating the choker threatens WILLE's ultimate goal. And yes, it is humane and understandable that Misato just couldn't do it. But if it still wasn't wrong, then they all should have done the same for Yui and Rei.

I don't understand at all what you're trying to say. My point is that even if objectively killing Shinji would be beneficial for WILLE because it would deprive neo-NERV of an Impact Trigger, Misato, and by extension WILLE, didn't do it because they are still human beings and not ruthless robots. And if they can justify the murder of a manipulated 14 years old boy because it's an advantage for them, then that opens the door to every kind of atrocity under the justification that it's for WILLE and mankind's good.
And in the end they wouldn't be better than Gendo(or even worse, at least he doesn't hide his reasons behind some justification), which again would made the audience stop caring about their fate or mankind's in FINAL.

[Signer]

I am trying to say that killing Shinji is not just "beneficial" - not killing him is the same as killing many other people. And these people don't want to die the same way people which died because of Gendo's plan didn't want to die. And if it is right to justify their deaths just because it somehow makes you not ruthless, it is not that bad to sacrifice humanity for the sake of Gendo's plan. So I don't know about WILLE as a whole, but at least Misato is not much "better" than Gendo. And if it is shown that not killing people you like is what good guys do, then Gendo is good guy too.

[pwhodges]

I am trying to say that killing Shinji is not just "beneficial" - not killing him is the same as killing many other people.

No, that is not a simple equivalence; you don't know the future, and in any case there are other ways to influence it.

[Ray]

I think Wille not killing him had more to do with protocol and necessity than mercy. Assuming Unit 01 has Yui and Reis souls in them, killing him could very well make Unit 01 go berserk and rip out from the Wunder like a giant Mecha-chest burster Xenomorph.

[ElMariachi]

^
But the thing is that there wasn't a 100% chance that Shinji escaping meant another Impact, sure Gendo would try everything he could to make Shinji trigger one, and Ritsuko urged Misato to activate the DSS Choker because she's the kind of extremely pragmatic people who don't take any risk.
But Misato isn't like that, even after 14 years of war, she can't bring herself to just kill him to be on the sure side, simply because it's not right!
Following your logic, Asuka should had been killed too the moment they realized that she have a permanent angelic infection in her eye, you know, to be on the sure side...
They can't just execute someone because it was manipulated by Gendo, or else half of WILLE should be dead right now!

This scene can also be considered as Misato putting her trust on Shinji that he will follow Sakura's pleas to don't pilot an Eva and won't be converted to SEELE's ideology.

And the worst is that in a sense she rightly placed her truth : after learning the whole truth, Shinji completely refused to pilot ever again, and when finally being convinced to do it one last time, it was to thwart Gendo's plan and bring the victory to WILLE... except that Gendo also took that scenario into account, returning Shinji's good will and desire to be forgiven against him.

And Gendo isn't remotely a good guy anymore : he manipulated his son to near-insanity, put him in a situation of fight to the death against the people he cared for, and apparently don't care at all of what will happen to Shinji now that he fulfilled his role to awake EVA-13, Shinji can die in the red desert for all he cares.
Asuka at least took it upon herself to try to drag him to safety with her, even though that diminishes her chances to get out of there alive.

[KingXanaduu]

I am trying to say that killing Shinji is not just "beneficial" - not killing him is the same as killing many other people. And these people don't want to die the same way people which died because of Gendo's plan didn't want to die. And if it is right to justify their deaths just because it somehow makes you not ruthless, it is not that bad to sacrifice humanity for the sake of Gendo's plan. So I don't know about WILLE as a whole, but at least Misato is not much "better" than Gendo. And if it is shown that not killing people you like is what good guys do, then Gendo is good guy too.

Except there's a big difference between Gendo and Shinji that doesn't warrant an execution:

Shinji NEVER wanted this to happen. The biggest fundamental difference between Shinji and Gendo is that he actually cares about the people in his life and wants to do what's best for all of then. Yes, both of them maybe selfish in their actions, but Shinji's heart was in the right place, and you just don't execute someone just because they made a mistake in trying to do the right thing.

That's like a parent disowning a child just because he tried to help but still messed up. You don't abandon your children just because they made a mistake. You punish them, teach them what they did wasn't the right way and that there are other ways to do it, and you move forward but KEEP loving them despite the mistake. And that's what the difference is between Wille and Gendo.

Yes, they're going to be pissed as hell for what Shinji has done, but is that enough to warrant a public execution? No. They haven't lost their humanity yet, unlike Gendo, and Misato (as evidenced) isn't going to start. Because if they did, what's the point in surviving if you're just gonna end up as monsters and murderers?