3.0 Film Reaction Thread

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

If someone only really puts their focus &amp attention into unchallenging narratives about how they're "little sister can't be this cute" or how being a pervy photographer makes girls go crazy for you or how random adorable Mecha Pilot finds himself in a small town beach community surrounded by half naked girls who fawn over him then it shouldn't be expected they'd react well to being shown something dark, unsafe &amp quite challenging. Especially if said work is also an anime &amp is a part of the all towering largest anime franchise of them all.

I do enjoy a fun narrative that isn't all that challenging from time to time. Every film or TV show cannot be a work of art. If you come into a theater or watch a show constantly expecting that, then you might as well not watch stuff at all. (In fact, I may actually own a season of a narrative about how "my little sister can't be this cute.") I hardly watch stuff like that an episode or two a week, though. Shows like that can lose their fun and charm quickly if taken in large doses, and certainly aren't something that should be devoted to in terms of a time given to it in a marathon or large amounts of money in purchasing a copy. (I think I got Oreimo for $15 or something. I watch it once every couple of years or something like that while avoiding illegal torrents.) It also helps that most Japanese shows don't actually require that much time from the viewer, as they're usually done in 13 episodes anyway. (Unlike American shows, which try to make an unchallenging pouch of ideas last long enough to become an American life-style and tradition.)

That being said, I do agree that most people do spend more time on narratives such as that then they should while "running away" from more challenging narratives. I'm watching through Clannad right now, and, while there was some attention given to character backstory, the personalities of the characters (mostly female, BTW) can be blandly segregated into two safe categories: "The Loud Ones," and "The Quite Ones." In contrast, most of the stuff in my collection of TV shows or films is full of challenging narratives, as those are the most interesting to re-watch and study. As uncomfortable as my experiences marathoning NGE have been, I've gained much more insight into the show and had much more fun following each detail of the show in that context then I would any other show. This is probably why NGE has become as popular in the anime medium as it has, because people can devote more and more time into the show and find more new aspects of the show than they noticed in previous viewings.

I don't object to it because it's dark or nihilistic. I object to it because it doesn't logically follow on from 2.22. There's an absolutely massive gap that we can only sit around and make wild guesses about.

Well, there are two strikes against that argument.

1) The characters in 3.33 do flow logically from 2.22. I'd give you instances, but then I'd be recounting the entire series of events of the movie at you, and I assume you've already seen it.

2) I'll admit the drastic changes made at NERV in the past 14 years are a bit confusing. But that's part of what makes Evangelion what it is. There are large portions of the TV series that also feels incoherent until the last batch of episodes. (And, heck. Even then most people couldn't get past how incoherent EoTV felt until EoE was screened in theaters.) There's always confusion before clarity. If there was clarity without there first being confusion, then there would be nothing special about Eva's narrative.

Also, having absolutely no change to NERV or the presence of Wille in 3.33 would negate the reasons for having a 14-year time gap to begin with. If there was 14 years between the films and nothing had changed, then it would become a useless story-telling maneuver made only to arbitrarily confuse the protagonist. Adding these massive changes gives definition and reason behind this choice made in writing the narrative, making the viewer more intrigued in the plot behind the characters than what was presented to us in the first two films. This works perfectly well in 3.33, and complaints like yours are proof of it. If there was no confusion in 3.33 for you to complain about, then there would be no desire or urgency to watch 4.0 for clarification, now would there?

[riffraff11235]

Also, having absolutely no change to NERV or the presence of Wille in 3.33 would negate the reasons for having a 14-year time gap to begin with. If there was 14 years between the films and nothing had changed, then it would become a useless story-telling maneuver made only to arbitrarily confuse the protagonist. Adding these massive changes gives definition and reason behind this choice made in writing the narrative, making the viewer more intrigued in the plot behind the characters than what was presented to us in the first two films. This works perfectly well in 3.33, and complaints like yours are proof of it. If there was no confusion in 3.33 for you to complain about, then there would be no desire or urgency to watch 4.0 for clarification, now would there?

Pretty much my viewpoint on complaints about clarity. Remember people: there's still an entire movie's worth of information that we haven't seen yet. Anno isn't obliged to make complete sense of anything until FINAL, and knowing him we'll probably be left with more than a few burning questions even after the last credits roll. Then another preview starts and the entire fandom spontaneously combusts.

[Jurrasic]

I don't object to it because it's dark or nihilistic. I object to it because it doesn't logically follow on from 2.22. There's an absolutely massive gap that we can only sit around and make wild guesses about.

I prefer coherence in my storytelling. I don't mind dark and nihilistic coherence. I do mind incoherence, dark or otherwise.

This pretty clearly summarizes my feelings as well. I wanted to love 3.0, and after the first 6 min. opening sequence preview was released, I was dancing. This was gonna be AWESOME!!

I scoured torrent sites and anime forums for news of a cam, and even when that first crappy cam version came out and I eagerly sat down to watch it, all I was was confused as hell. Then the BDrips became available along with much more accurate subtitles, and I was STILL confused as hell. Less about the details, more about how such a terrible incoherent mess could have come from a team that I considered to be some damn good storytellers.

They didn't need to go THE WHOLE MOVIE explaining nothing to get Shinji's sense of confusion and isolation across, they didn't NEED to drop the idiot ball on normally intelligent characters to make them act completely contrary to their nature to get that point across. I could go on, but the linked reviews pretty much cover my feelings about "in media res" and other things that were missed or otherwise misused.

tl;dr It ain't no End of Evangelion, not even in the same ballpark.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I scoured torrent sites and anime forums for news of a cam, and even when that first crappy cam version came out and I eagerly sat down to watch it, all I was was confused as hell.

[...]

tl;dr It ain't no End of Evangelion, not even in the same ballpark.

So, you complained about how confused you were, but then complained about how it's not End of, a film that relishes in incoherency, confusion, and "mindfuckery" both coming from and directed toward the characters.

Also, seeing as how 3.33 isn't the "End of New Evangelion," I can hardly see why on Earth you would compare it to the "End of Old Evangelion."

[TheDrmcvey]

The problem isn't the "bashing", it's the "calling anyone who liked it a bunch of idiots".

Exactly. If someone who's doing review who doesn't like a movie, and claims he's smarter than other people for not liking it, then no one will listen to him. As a reviewer, you have to see the audience's reasons for liking it before you try to insult them.

[Jurrasic]

So, you complained about how confused you were, but then complained about how it's not End of, a film that relishes in incoherency, confusion, and "mindfuckery" both coming from and directed toward the characters.

I understood EoE on 3rd viewing a -LOT- more then I understood Q on 3rd viewing.

Also, seeing as how 3.33 isn't the "End of New Evangelion," I can hardly see why on Earth you would compare it to the "End of Old Evangelion."

Mainly because people in this thread have been referencing Q by comparing it to EoE for its apocalyptic mind-fuckery and much darker tone then the previous material. We have been invited to compare it to EoE, and so I did.

I loved EoE. I would like to love Q. Hopefully Final will allow me to do so as part of a completed story. But as it stands right now, I am somewhat disappointed.

[SenorSquiid]

It was chock full of apocalypses and sadness. Very nicely animated to boot. A Good Evangelion.

[ElMariachi]

Also, seeing as how 3.33 isn't the "End of New Evangelion," I can hardly see why on Earth you would compare it to the "End of Old Evangelion."

That's were I disagree : for me on a narrative level, 3.0 was EoE, but an EoE exclusive to Shinji!
Forget about the time skip and the post-apocalyptic setting, and concentrate on the plot, what was the point of EoE? To make Shinji reach the bottom line, then fuck up everything because of his rage born from desperation, and then make him understand that there is still hope, his way of living was wrong, and finally make him reach the epiphany that if he want love and happiness he will have to work for it and go to reach people, even if then they could hurt him.

And in 3.0 that exactly the same thing : Shinji reached the absolute bottom(the revelations about what happened 14 years ago and about Yui and Rei), in his rage and desperation fucked up everything(pulling out the spears even though Kaworu was begging him to stop), and the consequences hit him full force(4I and Kaworu's death).
But then appear the major difference : unlike EoE where Shinji had all leisure to take on the whole planet with Instrumentality, here Instrumentality was prevented, thanks to Kaworu and WILLE. Because this time unlike EoE there is still people against SEELE who is alive, hell now there is a whole organization against SEELE and the HIP, instead of just Misato and Kaji(who were both dead by the end of EoE when Shinji had to make his crucial decision). So this time Shinji got the big slap in the face, but without the rest of mankind being obliterated, and the only thing left for Shinji is to draw lessons from these traumatic experiences and apply them. In EoE it was nice to see him reach the conclusion that life is worth being lived and that he must try to reach and truly listen and understand the others, but here in Rebuild that won't be enough, there is a lot of shit to get down and he will have to prove with acts that he changed!

That's what make me happy in 3.0, because we got the "EoE" part of Shinji's character development almost out of the way, and now for FINAL everything is possible!
The only thing I don't know is how Shinji will let the lessons of what he did in 3.0 sink and how many time of the film it will take him.
The last thing I want to see is Shinji being a catatonic wreck dragged left and right for plot convenience for 80% of the movie, so that at the end he got served to him the solution of his problems in the form of EVA-01/13/Instrumentality/Rei-Lilith/whatever. This time I want him to fight and struggle for his salvation!

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I understood EoE on 3rd viewing a -LOT- more then I understood Q on 3rd viewing.

Well, of course you understood the film that explains everything by the third viewing; it's the film that explains everything. Likewise, it also makes sense that you didn't understand the film that asked more questions than it answered by the 3rd viewing; it's the film that asked more questions than it answered.

[Charsi]

Also, having absolutely no change to NERV or the presence of Wille in 3.33 would negate the reasons for having a 14-year time gap to begin with. If there was 14 years between the films and nothing had changed, then it would become a useless story-telling maneuver made only to arbitrarily confuse the protagonist.

Don't you see this is circular reasoning?

"There was a big timeskip during which some inexplicable things happened, otherwise what would be the point of the timeskip?"

When I say things don't follow on I am not necessarily talking about the characters (which are mostly fine, if guilty of stupid decision making for the sake of plot). What i'm talking about is how the end of 2.22 simply doesn't match in any way shape or form what we're shown in 3.33.

Biggest case in point: teeth in the landscape. Secondary: the moon. There's also the Failures of Infinity. None of that was visible when Kaworu descended at the end of 2.22.

Here's something for you to consider: was the timeskip necessary? What storytelling purpose does it serve, since it didn't even age the other Eva pilots? All it did is age a bunch of secondary characters, but they act pretty close to how they acted before the timeskip - plus a side order of bitterness. Most of the reactions come across like N3I occured a few months ago, rather than a decade ago. So if the timeskip serves no narrative purpose, why is it there? Why 14 years, exactly? And yet, the timeskip justifies the mysteries which justify the timeskip...

(Maybe i'll go start a thread on this.)

Pretty much my viewpoint on complaints about clarity. Remember people: there's still an entire movie's worth of information that we haven't seen yet.

I would love explanation as much as the next guy but I don't actually expect 4.44 to explain the giant gap between 2.22 and 3.33. 4.44 will conclude the story; it will move forwards, not retread the past. The past will get cursory exposition at best. I'll be absolutely astonished if i'm wrong on that one.

So it's all well and good to say an entire movie's worth of information we haven't seen. Great. That's the end. I actually have no problem with the very end of 3.33. It leaves us in a interesting position that is somewhat reminiscent of the end of the original Eva movies: the pilots stranded in a barren, post impact landscape. 4.44 is a chance for us to see an "after" story, almost. I'm looking forward to this... a lot. But I don't necessarily want them to go back to giant robot fights. I hope they take advantage of the narrative position they're in and really tell a story that they never got to tell with where EoE ended.

But what about the entire movie worth of information that must have occured between 2.22 and 3.33? Will we ever see that? I highly doubt it. And that's where the lion's share of my problem lies. Hell, people are talking about a 1cour or 2cour series to fill the gap. That right there should tell you something's wrong, and speculating that an anime might retroactively back fill the massive hole in the story highlights the problem.

Lastly, let me state the bloody obvious. The story isn't finished yet. It could turn around and explain the gap, and conclude the story, and who knows what. Doubt or otherwise we'll all know for sure in a year or two. But if we're not supposed to form an opinion because the story is unfinished, then what's the freaking point of this thread or this forum? I reject the idea that we must not negatively judge 3.33 because 4.44 isn't out yet. Each movie should stand on it's own to a certain extent and is worthy of praise or criticism in and of itself in what and how it tells its story and how well it connects to the rest of the series. And to me, 3.33 doesn't feel like the successor to 2.22. It feels like something they came up with after the successor got cut.

No doubt they will creatively retcon - or we will creatively fanwank - some way for the end of 2.22 to somehow lead into 3.33, despite contradictory visuals.

[kboyrulez12345]

@charsi, Yes, you do hold some points. The destruction of 3I didn't look nearly as world wide as we've seen in Q. There are currently two theories that explain why though:

1. It is most commonly believed that Shinji started some kind of chain reaction when he turned his Eva to god mode. And his could entirely be true. After all, the people of Willie stated that Shinji was the cause of Third Impact. So it's most likely that his actions caused some type if 'impacty' reactions to happen to the world. An example of this is Lilith. At the end of 2.22, Lilith is seen on the cross, while in Q, it is in a crawling position and there is said to be JSSDF planes around it(if that's true could someone post a screenshot?) It is heavily implied that when 3I started, it caused something to happen to Lilith, as we do get a close up of his face at the end of the movie. Or the reason I hope isn't true:

2.It's a retcon. With the rumor that Anno and co scrapped their original plans for the movie mid-production, it could be plausible that Shinji actually caused more destruction than what was originally seen, which I hope is not the case, as I for one hate retcons.

As for the point of the timeskip, it's this: to give Shinji more trouble. That's basically what the time skip is for. If Shinji had woken up immediately after Kaworu stopped his Impact, than it is a good assumption to say there would have been a lot of good explanation on why he did such as a thing, because by that point Misato still didn't understand Gendo's plan by the end of the film. Things would have gone more smoothly if he woken up immediately for Shinji, besides the fact that he's responsible for the world's destruction, the future Willie crew would have known beforehand that it wasn't his fault.

But, for 14 years to pass, Misato and co obviously have learned a lot of things about Gendo's plan. They know that Shinji is a trigger for an Impact. The situation they are in is more 'in their face' than ever, and they have to focus on stopping Nerv to prevent any further Impacts. Living in a 14 year desolate land turned them into people who concentrate more on the bigger picture than anything else. So, when Shinji, who has not understood any of this because he's been inside his Eva for 14 years, suddenly comes back, and Willie knows that he is a potential Trigger, they not instead focus on the "Why did you do this Shinji?" but more on the "You are a Trigger, it doesn't matter what your reason is, we have to prevent you from doing any more Impacts" because, like I said, they are more aware of the situation they are in than ever before.

Now you could say the time skip could be shorter. Maybe, maybe not, because we don't know when Misato learns of Nerv's plans, so that would be a moot point.

[pwhodges]

I reject the idea that we must not negatively judge 3.33 because 4.44 isn't out yet. Each movie should stand on it's own to a certain extent and is worthy of praise or criticism in and of itself in what and how it tells its story and how well it connects to the rest of the series. And to me, 3.33 doesn't feel like the successor to 2.22.

Well of course you can dislike the movie; that's your prerogative as always. But there are those of us who do like it, and find the disconnection from the previous movie to have a dramatic effect which is worthwhile in itself - and that, equally, is our prerogative.

That doesn't mean that we are lacking in interest in what happened in the timeskip, and stuff like that; nor that we don't have plenty to discuss about it in this forum, given how many enigmas there are as yet unexplained.

[riffraff11235]

I reject the idea that we must not negatively judge 3.33 because 4.44 isn't out yet. Each movie should stand on it's own to a certain extent and is worthy of praise or criticism in and of itself in what and how it tells its story and how well it connects to the rest of the series. And to me, 3.33 doesn't feel like the successor to 2.22.

Bit of a contradiction there. Some might even say that Q is the Rebuild movie that stands out most as a self-contained unit, since it is so chronologically and thematically detached from the other two. People are free to offer valid criticisms of the movie, but complaining that lots of things remained unclear when the conclusion to the quadrilogy, as well as two CRC books, have yet to be released seems kind of unnecessary to me. Who knows; maybe all of the relevant plot points that happened during the timeskip can be effectively summarized in a short flashback.

[Jurrasic]

Well, of course you understood the film that explains everything by the third viewing; it's the film that explains everything. Likewise, it also makes sense that you didn't understand the film that asked more questions than it answered by the 3rd viewing; it's the film that asked more questions than it answered.

Did you really just include the words "Explains everything" in the same sentence as "End of Evangelion"?

I keed, I keed.

[TheDrmcvey]

Since some of us are deciding to post video reviews of the movie, I've decided to post one that sums up some of my thoughts.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VViK05VQRBE

[gchristnsn]

OK, I'll also try to post my humble review, video- in some sense [fairly used, I hope]. It more concerned with what is happening there, on the matter of impressions I would say that I also enjoyed every frame of the movie and like it.

[BlueBasilisk]

How different might peoples' reactions be if 2.22 hadn't ended with that teaser? It set up expectations for something radically different than what we got.

[Shinoyami65]

How different might peoples' reactions be if 2.22 hadn't ended with that teaser? It set up expectations for something radically different than what we got.

Well, we'd still normally expect to see what happened immediately after 2.22, so there would probably still be plenty of timeskip criticism.

[Charsi]

How different might peoples' reactions be if 2.22 hadn't ended with that teaser? It set up expectations for something radically different than what we got.

It actually kind of needed to end at Ritsuko's statement about the end of the world. That would have been okay. Everything from the spear toss onwards screwed it up.

So basically if you retcon out everything after the credits roll... in other words, the entire notion that 3I was stopped by any sort of lance... it works a lot better. We'd still have questions but they wouldn't be as bad. They'd mostly be around the Eva being built on the moon, speculating about what purpose it might have had and why Kaworu was suiting up just before the impact began. And how Shinji ended up in space, but that's kind of minor.

Everything else could believably be the outcome of an impact that was never stopped. People that hate timeskips would still hate the timeskip because timeskip.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

To those who think the tine gap is circular reasoning, please research Hitchcockian exposition, as well as his theory between Mystery, Suspense, and Tension. Then tell me three different ways Anno incorporates all three elements in 3.33, how it actually makes the choices by the character make sense beyond plot needs, and also how it negates your current opinion of 3.33.