Shinji Character Analysis (2.0/3.0)
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Anyone ever get mad about something and storm out? Especially when your a teenager? Probably all seething, and thinking you'll never forgive them again? Of course it was something minor so after an hour or two you get over it. Except killing your close friend isn't exactly a minor thing. Given a while to cool down, Shinji might have come back to Misato and Rei. But not Eva and Gendo as things stood. Yeah he threw a temper tantrum. But he actually had a fairly understandable reaction there. Not too many people would be happy about the whole friend killing thing. And no, Restraining Unit-03 to rescue Asuka was not the option Gendo was presenting. Destroy the Angel was. Shinji isn't some sort of tactical genius under pressure. And rescuing Asuka from withing the Eva is one of those easier said than done things.
You want a good job done saving the world? Don't put it on the shoulders of an emotionally damaged 14 year old conscript, who doesn't know shit about what's going on.
You want a good job done saving the world? Don't put it on the shoulders of an emotionally damaged 14 year old conscript, who doesn't know shit about what's going on.
I'm not sure what I feel about Eva anymore, but I'm pretty sure I don't actually enjoy the series anymore.
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Unless the point was, to Break him.
That's the entire goal set out for his life. Stuck in the middle of a darkest hour that never ends. He's the perfect pawn to achieve Gendo and Seele's goal. Emotionally damaged to the point where he can't make a rational decision, forced to endure a nightmarish life where he's supposed to "save the world", but ultimately set up to fail, no matter what action he chooses.
Given all this, is it no surprise to Shinji, when push comes to shove, he folds so easily?
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.
"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.
"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera
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Except in any sane universe Asuka wouldn't be considered a soldier. Really, she's just another pawn; a device being used to activate her machine. Shinji's not the one who activated the Dummy Plug and maimed her. Lastly, yes, their plights are the same, considering Shinji's EVA Unit ATE HIM.
EDIT: Oh, and Shinji DID NOT ABANDON ANYONE TO DIE. It was just his bad luck (re:plot contrivance) that Zeruel decided to come calling the exact day Shinji left. And as corrupt as NERV's upper management is, in any other setting this would be the sane choice. As far as he (and by extension, the audience) knew, they didn't need him anymore. They had their precious Dummy now; what do they care about him?
The Zeruel tantrum thing was simply Shinji finally snapping and attempting to channel all that teenage aggression towards something that actually deserves it. Even he isn't that self-centered; if he was, why would he come back?
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."
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Sorry for the disorganized post. I think the citations to the original series are relevant in this context, since the spirit of the theme they advance is strongly present in Rebuild as well.
I'll play devil's advocate here. Sure he did. Consider what the entire sequence is about (from dummy plug deactivation vs Bardiel to Shinji stepping in to fight Zeruel). Its virtually unchanged from original series to rebuild (swap Kaji for Mari).
After the dummy system is turned off, Shinji throws a tantrum and says he doesn't want to pilot Eva anymore. They say "OK. If you don't want to work with us, we can't force you. Goodbye." The dummy system isn't the reason he leaves (he wasn't "fired"). The dummy system is the reason they allow him to leave ("we're slightly less fucked than when he quit after the fourth angel").
Think about the conversation with Kaji that follows. Kaji doesn't ask him to go pilot and save everyone. Kaji just tells him to think about what he wants, and to have no regrets. Think about the conversation with Misato after Shinji runs away. Shinji says he will pilot because everyone else needs him to, and wants him to, and no one else can do it. Misato's words in the dub are "Stow that line of crap!... This has nothing to do with me or anyone else!" While on one hand they want him to pilot, they tell him he should only pilot if he wants to as well. The question is then, "does Shinji want to save the world, does Shinji want to save his friends?" Its a fine distinction, but an important one, because its hammered home several times by several characters. Toji says that they won't blame or hate him for running away, even if it means his family will have to flee Tokyo-3. In episode 1, (paraphrasing) "this is what you came here to do, so why don't you want to do it?" This is all relevant because Shinji is portrayed as someone more likely to do something simply because it was asked of him rather than to it because it helps them.
Did Shinji abandon them? Sure he did. It doesn't matter when Zeruel turned up. It doesn't matter that there was a dummy plug, since Shinji's mind was pretty well made up anyway. Sure he had plenty of reason to run away, but the fact of the matter is he decided he was done, come what may, because the personal cost to him wasn't worth the good to be gained by staying in the eva. He changes his mind later when he's again shown what he should be fighting to protect. Again, the dummy plug argument is just rationalization for a decision already made.
CyberXIII wrote:EDIT: Oh, and Shinji DID NOT ABANDON ANYONE TO DIE. It was just his bad luck (re:plot contrivance) that Zeruel decided to come calling the exact day Shinji left. And as corrupt as NERV's upper management is, in any other setting this would be the sane choice. As far as he (and by extension, the audience) knew, they didn't need him anymore. They had their precious Dummy now; what do they care about him?
I'll play devil's advocate here. Sure he did. Consider what the entire sequence is about (from dummy plug deactivation vs Bardiel to Shinji stepping in to fight Zeruel). Its virtually unchanged from original series to rebuild (swap Kaji for Mari).
After the dummy system is turned off, Shinji throws a tantrum and says he doesn't want to pilot Eva anymore. They say "OK. If you don't want to work with us, we can't force you. Goodbye." The dummy system isn't the reason he leaves (he wasn't "fired"). The dummy system is the reason they allow him to leave ("we're slightly less fucked than when he quit after the fourth angel").
Think about the conversation with Kaji that follows. Kaji doesn't ask him to go pilot and save everyone. Kaji just tells him to think about what he wants, and to have no regrets. Think about the conversation with Misato after Shinji runs away. Shinji says he will pilot because everyone else needs him to, and wants him to, and no one else can do it. Misato's words in the dub are "Stow that line of crap!... This has nothing to do with me or anyone else!" While on one hand they want him to pilot, they tell him he should only pilot if he wants to as well. The question is then, "does Shinji want to save the world, does Shinji want to save his friends?" Its a fine distinction, but an important one, because its hammered home several times by several characters. Toji says that they won't blame or hate him for running away, even if it means his family will have to flee Tokyo-3. In episode 1, (paraphrasing) "this is what you came here to do, so why don't you want to do it?" This is all relevant because Shinji is portrayed as someone more likely to do something simply because it was asked of him rather than to it because it helps them.
Did Shinji abandon them? Sure he did. It doesn't matter when Zeruel turned up. It doesn't matter that there was a dummy plug, since Shinji's mind was pretty well made up anyway. Sure he had plenty of reason to run away, but the fact of the matter is he decided he was done, come what may, because the personal cost to him wasn't worth the good to be gained by staying in the eva. He changes his mind later when he's again shown what he should be fighting to protect. Again, the dummy plug argument is just rationalization for a decision already made.
God, Apparently you all have been discussing Q since November. Catching up on the discussion is harrowing.
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The scene's really left up to interpretation; it's all in how you're viewing it. And you have a point; Anno even got rid of EVA-02 and EVA-00 with plot contrivances just to drive home that this will be Shinji's story.
But to get more to the point, the Dummy Plug incident was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. Gendo was more than happy to be rid of him anyway. I don't see Shinji's rant as a tantrum, to be honest. I will say that what he was ranting about needed to be said, no matter what the visuals and EOE shout out implied about his state of mind. I will also say that he could've handled it a lot better, although it's not like Gendo really cares what he thinks, if he ever did.
You're also right, the only reason they let him leave this time is because they have the Dummy Plug. What does that really say about the value they place on their pilots beyond pawns to activate their death machines?
Shinji only left because he found out the ugly side to this kind of pragmatism and it hurt him personally. Yes, there were selfish motives involved as well but that's too one-sided to be the only reason he'd ditch them all. He knew from the beginning NERV only sees him as a tool; that colors every interaction he has with Misato and the rest of NERV's upper management.
At this point in the story, Asuka's dead, his father killed her and no one seems to give a damn, including the audience. Why would he stick around afterwards when he knows they have something that can do what they need him to do better than he can do it?
But to get more to the point, the Dummy Plug incident was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. Gendo was more than happy to be rid of him anyway. I don't see Shinji's rant as a tantrum, to be honest. I will say that what he was ranting about needed to be said, no matter what the visuals and EOE shout out implied about his state of mind. I will also say that he could've handled it a lot better, although it's not like Gendo really cares what he thinks, if he ever did.
You're also right, the only reason they let him leave this time is because they have the Dummy Plug. What does that really say about the value they place on their pilots beyond pawns to activate their death machines?
Shinji only left because he found out the ugly side to this kind of pragmatism and it hurt him personally. Yes, there were selfish motives involved as well but that's too one-sided to be the only reason he'd ditch them all. He knew from the beginning NERV only sees him as a tool; that colors every interaction he has with Misato and the rest of NERV's upper management.
At this point in the story, Asuka's dead, his father killed her and no one seems to give a damn, including the audience. Why would he stick around afterwards when he knows they have something that can do what they need him to do better than he can do it?
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."
I am ask-shinji-ikari on tumblr.com. Feel free to ask me questions!
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Thank you for your clarifications! I'm new here, have not familiarized myself with all the threads, all procedures and I feel an interloper in this discussion, so forgive me for the inconvenience, poor english and, if possible, I would like to clarify me some questions:
I still find it premature to deny the hypothesis. The mini-Rei that appears in the first film after the fight with Sachiel should not be for mere curiosity! The complexity of mastery in the use of the AT field that manifests Unit 01 are also indications that Shinji is not in control of the monster. He did not even remember that Misato explained, during the fight with Sahaquiel, that an AT field have the property to block transmissions. It would have been very useful when Gendo increased pressure plug. On second thought, nobody tried this during 3I. Would be Plot induced stupidity? Or Ritsuko knew from that point forward Shinji would not have any more influence and knockout him would be useless?
During 4I is true that Unit 13 impaled itself with two spears? If, is another action very complex and specific to Shinji have performed. Is there something wrong with these things, it makes no sense without a mind rudimentary or a complex program commanding the Eva.
But honestly, do not think we'll get answers to these plot devices.
If the desire was aborted then both Shinji and Rei should have been partially or fully assimilated as the teleporter accidents. Shinji has left unharmed the Plug was very strange. Both SEELE and Gendo were hoping the 3I and so had already prepared the Unit 06 and Kaworu to intervene. Kaji apparently was misinformed about it, thought SEELE did not know about the awakening of Unit 01 and could have a reaction against Gendo. Apparently there was no hostility. So they probably had some method of ensuring that the "wish" would be beneficial for them and only them.
As much as I like, admire and respect the unorthodox competence of Misato I think she will never get their hands on Gendo. The Plot Armor is too thick! Anno made that clear in EoE: Ritsuko, proving that despite being bleached blonde, psychotic and crazy she was still one of the most intelligent women who have lived prepared Magi to explode. In a single action she would destroy the Magi, the Evas, the Mass Production Evas, Lilith, Adam, Rei, Gendo, the Pilots, the Red Moon and all means that SEELE needed to create an Impact! This would delay Seele for decades, perhaps forever! She would avenge herself and still have saved the world! It was so well thought Anno had to invent a dumb excuse to it failed: the Magi gains consciousness and saves Gendo. How? No matter, it's Plot!
The Plot Armor of Gendo only fails when Shinji is crazy enough to start the 3I. Why? To he take all blame obvious! So Gendo says an idiotic and meaningless phrase: "I'm sorry, Shinji!" and the audience hear a ridiculous explanation of how he was afraid of Shinji and so he is forgiven by the public. If his Plot Armor falls on Final has to be under these conditions: melodramatic and sympathetic.
I remember ambiguously when the Dummy Plug is activated. It seemed that thing would have to synchronize using and connecting to the controls and, while Shinji was holding the controls too, he would have had a nightmare version of Sync Dual combating Gaghiel. But I think my memory was failing me. Forgive me.
Very convenient, as always! That does not seem very logical. Even to open the Gate of the Central Dogma they had to cooperate and act in unison! The "training" of Duets was for that, is not it? And if Kaworu was ill should have affected the synchronization of Shinji and hindered the operation of Eva.
Nice one! If Shinji had said that I would agree that he knew what he was doing! It is very specific and elaborate! I have also said something similar about the world and the daughter of my neighbors, a girl of 15 years, made a scandal last Sunday screaming that she wanted her parents died because they prohibited her from dating a boy she met! I did not want the world to end and I doubt that the girl really want her parents die! Fortunately none of us is Eva pilot, much less character of Hideaki Anno. I will not be hypocritical and condemn someone for that nonsense talked in a stressful situation, because I've talked a lot of nonsense when stressed. And I'm sure we'll never know the details of the awakening of the Evas, if Shinji had a choice or not, if he was genetically altered to cause impacts or not, if there were safeguards in Evas to respond in some particular way or not, because these things would determine the degree of fault of each involved and therefore are not important. The important thing is that all the blame and responsibility falling on Shinji. That is the point of everything. Let him be punished and Gendo and SEELE escape unpunished. The public should even forget they exist.
Of all the Eva pilots, Shinji is the only one who had no previous training, had no experience in armed and unarmed combat (unless you consider target practice with Ritsuko as weapons training: "Aim for the center and shoot!" and learning choreographed dance and piano as martial arts training). The human history has always existed child soldiers and if Gendo wanted Shinji to be a soldier he would have sent his son to be trained even in another country (it would be fun to see Shinji in West Point or another military academy!). It would be a logical and rational act, in preparation for war, but that was never his goal. Shinji's spirit broken and crushed mind are the greatest Triumphs of his father, the smile he gave to Shinji in the reunion is the same as he got Key of Nebuchadnezzar. When the Devil of laughs for you, means that you will envy the dead. Shinji is no longer a person. He is a tool. Fuyutsuki, in the first film of Rebuilding, has said his fate was traced fourteen years ago. Since birth. Shinji is the chosen child to the mouth of Moloch. He is not even a sacrifice in Gendo's perception. Sacrifice has to be something important to the person, Shinji is not important to him. He is exactly what Gendo did him. This made me think how much power my parents had on me as a child and how they could have molded me as they wished. All that I am and I will be for them. I thank God for them always that I remember Shinji.
Prior to 3I, the only sense of will that is ever demonstrated by the Eva comes from Yui, when she forcibly rejects the dummy plug. I'm not sure Eva-01 meaningfully has a will unconnected to the souls inside it.
The whole "apocalypse machine" aspect of the Evas might have less to do with will and more to do with a preprogrammed nature of sorts. Probably something for Impact Mechanics, though.
I still find it premature to deny the hypothesis. The mini-Rei that appears in the first film after the fight with Sachiel should not be for mere curiosity! The complexity of mastery in the use of the AT field that manifests Unit 01 are also indications that Shinji is not in control of the monster. He did not even remember that Misato explained, during the fight with Sahaquiel, that an AT field have the property to block transmissions. It would have been very useful when Gendo increased pressure plug. On second thought, nobody tried this during 3I. Would be Plot induced stupidity? Or Ritsuko knew from that point forward Shinji would not have any more influence and knockout him would be useless?
During 4I is true that Unit 13 impaled itself with two spears? If, is another action very complex and specific to Shinji have performed. Is there something wrong with these things, it makes no sense without a mind rudimentary or a complex program commanding the Eva.
But honestly, do not think we'll get answers to these plot devices.
Third Impact, by which the "wish" was being granted, did not finish; it was aborted by Kaworu in Mark.06.
If the desire was aborted then both Shinji and Rei should have been partially or fully assimilated as the teleporter accidents. Shinji has left unharmed the Plug was very strange. Both SEELE and Gendo were hoping the 3I and so had already prepared the Unit 06 and Kaworu to intervene. Kaji apparently was misinformed about it, thought SEELE did not know about the awakening of Unit 01 and could have a reaction against Gendo. Apparently there was no hostility. So they probably had some method of ensuring that the "wish" would be beneficial for them and only them.
Wille are explicitly out to stop Nerv, which basically comes down to stopping Gendo, since he is the heart and soul of the operation. I'm sure he'll get what's coming to him, if Captain Katsuragi can help it.
As much as I like, admire and respect the unorthodox competence of Misato I think she will never get their hands on Gendo. The Plot Armor is too thick! Anno made that clear in EoE: Ritsuko, proving that despite being bleached blonde, psychotic and crazy she was still one of the most intelligent women who have lived prepared Magi to explode. In a single action she would destroy the Magi, the Evas, the Mass Production Evas, Lilith, Adam, Rei, Gendo, the Pilots, the Red Moon and all means that SEELE needed to create an Impact! This would delay Seele for decades, perhaps forever! She would avenge herself and still have saved the world! It was so well thought Anno had to invent a dumb excuse to it failed: the Magi gains consciousness and saves Gendo. How? No matter, it's Plot!
The Plot Armor of Gendo only fails when Shinji is crazy enough to start the 3I. Why? To he take all blame obvious! So Gendo says an idiotic and meaningless phrase: "I'm sorry, Shinji!" and the audience hear a ridiculous explanation of how he was afraid of Shinji and so he is forgiven by the public. If his Plot Armor falls on Final has to be under these conditions: melodramatic and sympathetic.
The synchronization was cut, actually. Shinji didn't feel anything. He only sensed that Eva-01 was doing something to the plug because he could hear the sound of creaking metal outside.
I remember ambiguously when the Dummy Plug is activated. It seemed that thing would have to synchronize using and connecting to the controls and, while Shinji was holding the controls too, he would have had a nightmare version of Sync Dual combating Gaghiel. But I think my memory was failing me. Forgive me.
Kaworu said that wielding one of each kind of Spear (Longinus and Cassius) required two souls. Apparently, wielding two of the same kind (as in, two Longinus) requires only one soul.
Very convenient, as always! That does not seem very logical. Even to open the Gate of the Central Dogma they had to cooperate and act in unison! The "training" of Duets was for that, is not it? And if Kaworu was ill should have affected the synchronization of Shinji and hindered the operation of Eva.
Presumably the same way that Shinji could shout intensely about something he supposedly didn't know about.
"I dont care what happens to me! And I especially dont care what happens to grain production in Bhangar province in India, nor do I know how it relates to this situation!"
Nice one! If Shinji had said that I would agree that he knew what he was doing! It is very specific and elaborate! I have also said something similar about the world and the daughter of my neighbors, a girl of 15 years, made a scandal last Sunday screaming that she wanted her parents died because they prohibited her from dating a boy she met! I did not want the world to end and I doubt that the girl really want her parents die! Fortunately none of us is Eva pilot, much less character of Hideaki Anno. I will not be hypocritical and condemn someone for that nonsense talked in a stressful situation, because I've talked a lot of nonsense when stressed. And I'm sure we'll never know the details of the awakening of the Evas, if Shinji had a choice or not, if he was genetically altered to cause impacts or not, if there were safeguards in Evas to respond in some particular way or not, because these things would determine the degree of fault of each involved and therefore are not important. The important thing is that all the blame and responsibility falling on Shinji. That is the point of everything. Let him be punished and Gendo and SEELE escape unpunished. The public should even forget they exist.
Unless you somehow consider a soldiers who's face has been maimed by a teenagers incompetence is somehow equal to the plight of the same whiny teenager who's mad his dad doesn't like him.
Of all the Eva pilots, Shinji is the only one who had no previous training, had no experience in armed and unarmed combat (unless you consider target practice with Ritsuko as weapons training: "Aim for the center and shoot!" and learning choreographed dance and piano as martial arts training). The human history has always existed child soldiers and if Gendo wanted Shinji to be a soldier he would have sent his son to be trained even in another country (it would be fun to see Shinji in West Point or another military academy!). It would be a logical and rational act, in preparation for war, but that was never his goal. Shinji's spirit broken and crushed mind are the greatest Triumphs of his father, the smile he gave to Shinji in the reunion is the same as he got Key of Nebuchadnezzar. When the Devil of laughs for you, means that you will envy the dead. Shinji is no longer a person. He is a tool. Fuyutsuki, in the first film of Rebuilding, has said his fate was traced fourteen years ago. Since birth. Shinji is the chosen child to the mouth of Moloch. He is not even a sacrifice in Gendo's perception. Sacrifice has to be something important to the person, Shinji is not important to him. He is exactly what Gendo did him. This made me think how much power my parents had on me as a child and how they could have molded me as they wished. All that I am and I will be for them. I thank God for them always that I remember Shinji.
Shinji didn't know she was still alive. He didn't know that until he saw her onboard the Wunder. I don't thing Misato even knew she was alive at that point. I'd check, but my 2.22 DVD is still being borrowed. You would think Misato might be a little mad about the whole Asuka thing.
I'm not sure what I feel about Eva anymore, but I'm pretty sure I don't actually enjoy the series anymore.
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She probably was at the time.
I said what I said for a reason. As far as we knew at the moment Asuka was dead and Shinji appeared to be the only one pissed off about it. It segues into his rant at his father for everything he's done to him, but the first thing Shinji says (paraphrased) is that Gendo used him to kill Asuka. That was the last straw, in his mind. Obviously he cared, 3.0 proves he cared if nothing else.
I said what I said for a reason. As far as we knew at the moment Asuka was dead and Shinji appeared to be the only one pissed off about it. It segues into his rant at his father for everything he's done to him, but the first thing Shinji says (paraphrased) is that Gendo used him to kill Asuka. That was the last straw, in his mind. Obviously he cared, 3.0 proves he cared if nothing else.
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."
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I said paraphrased, and as far as Shinji knew she was dead.
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."
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Nae7, Cyberwolf is right, Shinji did not know Asuka was still alive. In 3.0, even though I haven't seen it, the majority if the fans have said that Shinji was surprised that Asuka was alive, and also delighted. This coming from the guy who has watched 2.22 3 times now.
Besides, there was really no way Shinji would have known that Asuka was alive. I mean, yes, what you said, we do indeed cut to the scene of Ritskuo(spelling) saying that Asuka is alive, but Shinji wasn't there.
If your implying that somehow Nerv told him Asuka was alive, than there is no way. At this point, Gendo didn't care about Shinji leaving. I doubt he would even bother to tell Shinji that Asuka was alive, what with the way Shinji was acting to Gendo after he used the dummy plug system on Asuka.
Besides, there was really no way Shinji would have known that Asuka was alive. I mean, yes, what you said, we do indeed cut to the scene of Ritskuo(spelling) saying that Asuka is alive, but Shinji wasn't there.
If your implying that somehow Nerv told him Asuka was alive, than there is no way. At this point, Gendo didn't care about Shinji leaving. I doubt he would even bother to tell Shinji that Asuka was alive, what with the way Shinji was acting to Gendo after he used the dummy plug system on Asuka.
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I saw the rip. In fact I was one who was sending around the first version. He says he's glad she's okay. Not that she's alive. Big difference.
Misato Katsuragi wrote:You're not going to ask about Rei and Asuka, are you?
If Maya knows about Asuka's condition...you can be damn sure Misato knows about it.
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CyberXIII wrote:Except in any sane universe Asuka wouldn't be considered a soldier. Really, she's just another pawn; a device being used to activate her machine. Shinji's not the one who activated the Dummy Plug and maimed her. Lastly, yes, their plights are the same, considering Shinji's EVA Unit ATE HIM.
On the contrary, he retreated quite contentedly into it and was recovered with no physical injury. That's a far cry from getting hijacked by a space monster and getting your face mutilated. Also, the "child soldier" descriptor is used pretty often in Shinji's defense so I don't see the issue with it being used in reference to Asuka here.
EDIT: Oh, and Shinji DID NOT ABANDON ANYONE TO DIE. It was just his bad luck (re:plot contrivance) that Zeruel decided to come calling the exact day Shinji left.
He sure did! It's hardly a coincidental plot contrivance or a random stroke of bad luck that an angel just happened to come and attack Tokyo-3 while he was gone. More angels were going to come regardless of whether or not Shinji stuck around to help fight them -- they don't work on his schedule.
Even in a best-case scenario it would have been maybe a week or two before the next attack, which probably wouldn't be long enough for Nerv to find a new pilot and remotely adequately train them.
Shinji knew this, and knew that he would be leaving Rei to fend for herself, but he chose to ignore the clear reality of the situation (as he continues to do all throughout Q).
CyberXIII wrote:You're also right, the only reason they let him leave this time is because they have the Dummy Plug. What does that really say about the value they place on their pilots beyond pawns to activate their death machines?
Shinji only left because he found out the ugly side to this kind of pragmatism and it hurt him personally.
He seemed to have no problem leaving Rei behind to be a pawn to the machine. This actually becomes worse if, as you suggest, he thinks Asuka is dead. Shinji and Rei are the only pilots still standing, and he chooses to leave her to her fate.
At this point in the story, Asuka's dead, his father killed her and no one seems to give a damn, including the audience.
"Including the audience"? The onscreen narrative in 2.0 certainly doesn't seem to show any sympathy for her, but the audience isn't constrained to what the writing staff expects them to feel.
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Na7e wrote:I saw the rip. In fact I was one who was sending around the first version. He says he's glad she's okay. Not that she's alive. Big difference.
The context is what matter's here. Saying he was surprised is an understatement from me. The way I see it, the way Shinji's personality is, I'm leaning on the fact that he would say something like that instead of just out right saying 'Your still alive!' Sort of, given his current situation from what I read from the spoilers.
If Maya knows about Asuka's condition...you can be damn sure Misato knows about it.
Okay, Misato knows that Asuka's alive...but...what about Shinji? Misato just asks, like your quote says, you haven't asked about Rei and Asuka have you? I just saw that whole scene, Misato didn't explicitly say that Asuka was still alive.
EDIT: Actually, thinking about it now, I can see where your getting at. The fact that Misato even talks about Asuka should hint at her being alive. Still, Shinji could not have seen it that way, he was most likely, in laymen's terms, stupefied over the recent events and really wasn't paying attention to Misato.
Wow, I get why everyone always says that Evangelion is open ended. Having discussions like these are fun. :)
Last edited by kboyrulez12345 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yeah, like I put in my edit, after thinking about it, I see where he/she was getting at. But also in my edit, I came to another conclusion. And thinking about it more, stupefied was a bad choice of words. You can just replace that word with depressed.
Forgot to mention this. Also, him being depressed during this situation, is, in my opinion, justifiable given his circumstances.
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Mostly because they'd probably be better off without him to fuck things up even more. At least, that's his line of thought. Plus if he'd stayed Zeruel wouldn't have been caught by surprise and would have cut him down as easily as EVA-02 and EVA-00.
Of course, then Anno turned around and shat on this whole line of conversation when Third Impact happened anyway.
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."
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I am ask-shinji-ikari on tumblr.com. Feel free to ask me questions!
Actually I don't see Shinji getting in the Eva any faster even if he stayed. After the whole stomping on Nerv temper tantrum they are not keeping him on the active piloting roster. Especially not with the Dummy Plug being proven. Gendo wouldn't be in that much of a rush to get him in Unit-01. And lets face it, beast mode Unit-02 was not able to overpower Zueriel. It tanked a N2 Mine. Shinji had to be pissed enough, and catch it by surprise for his initial onsluaght to work. And then pissed enough about the whole Rei thing (Remember both versions he had to have it pointed out to him just what the stakes are, and see the damage done) to go into angel shredding super mode. So he stays in confinement at Nerv until Misato goes and drags him out, and hopefully is as good at inspireing speeches as Kaji and Mari. No, I do not think Shinji being there and teaming with Rei and Mari would be enough to stop Zuriel alone. Normal Shinji isn't that good a fighter. Pissed Shinji, Berserk Unit-01, and awakened Unit-01 are.
Yeah Shinji was wrong to storm out. But I think given time he'd have realized that he was wrong to leave Rei and Misato. But at the moment his anger at his father is overwhelming this. At this point Shinji feels that Gendo used his hands to murder Asuka. Is it selfish and stupid? Yes. But understandable. Honestly how many of you would have such perfect clarity and emotional control to not be royally pissed in such a situation? Running away is the wrong thing to do in hindsight. But at the same time to Shinji it's clear his father is a bastard and he should just leave. I wouldn't say it's condonable, but it is understandable. And how did Shinji profit from this? One way he can now say that he's happy with how his decision payed off? And this is part of why he can be convinced to get in Unit-13. Because the last time he did nothing because he felt bad is cost him Rei. But of course it's not so simple as Not pilot Eva=Bad Pilot Eva= good all the time.
I've decided Rebuild isn't a story about triumphs at all. Nope, its about fuck ups. And how you have to learn to deal with them no matter how bad the resualts, and how much they hurt you and others.
Yeah Shinji was wrong to storm out. But I think given time he'd have realized that he was wrong to leave Rei and Misato. But at the moment his anger at his father is overwhelming this. At this point Shinji feels that Gendo used his hands to murder Asuka. Is it selfish and stupid? Yes. But understandable. Honestly how many of you would have such perfect clarity and emotional control to not be royally pissed in such a situation? Running away is the wrong thing to do in hindsight. But at the same time to Shinji it's clear his father is a bastard and he should just leave. I wouldn't say it's condonable, but it is understandable. And how did Shinji profit from this? One way he can now say that he's happy with how his decision payed off? And this is part of why he can be convinced to get in Unit-13. Because the last time he did nothing because he felt bad is cost him Rei. But of course it's not so simple as Not pilot Eva=Bad Pilot Eva= good all the time.
I've decided Rebuild isn't a story about triumphs at all. Nope, its about fuck ups. And how you have to learn to deal with them no matter how bad the resualts, and how much they hurt you and others.
I'm not sure what I feel about Eva anymore, but I'm pretty sure I don't actually enjoy the series anymore.
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