Shinji Character Analysis (2.0/3.0)

[MitsumuraKun51196]

Rebuild and Meta go hand in hand, I guess.
Or maybe Anno is venting at all the bitching he got over 2.0 "Dear viewers, please accept that I'm not gonna do the same film twice" or shit.


But yeah, the magnitudes involved are huge, but I think some of it even works in Shinji's favor, in tems of justifying that he would act less rational with that much pressure and that much of a burden in it.
Yes, greater stakes should make you act more rational, but the weight is a factor of its own, as is someone's ability to grasp it.
1.0 has this scene that has Shinji musing "everything at all, that's such a big abstract word, I can hardly imagine what that means..."
That's like having a very long lever (As aristotle (or wa s it archimedes?) once said "Just give me a lever long enough and a place to stand, and I'll move the earth my my hands") that can make huge things happen with minimal touch, and that lever are the Evangelions...
And that's basically why putting 14 year olds in them is problematic, yeah.
It's sorta an intended part of the point.



To chose Rei over the world, he would've needed to know that there was such a choice.
In that situation, he couldn't have chosen Rei over the world if he'd wanted to, if not for anything else, then because of the "choice" part.
He didn't know the world was actually on the menu (other than by way of Zeruel winning)
As far as the information he had available to him went, saving the word and Rei went hand in hand, as far as he knew, both required him to kill Zeruel, and no one told him that his purple plaything could blow up the world if he feels a bit too pissed while sitting in it.

It's like when you're a doctor who saves people's lives, but say that you do it mainly because it earns a lot of money for your wife and kids, not because you're very altruistic and feel it's your duty to look after random injured people.
It's a question of your personal reasons for doing something, at no point do you make a choice between the people who come into your hospital and your wife and kids.

And if the scalpels that Doctor had been given turned out to be improperly sterilized by whatever nurse is responsible for doing so, no one would blame the guy and insist that he totally wanted to kill all the patients who got infections because of that because he said that his family was more important to him.

I know and as I said He didn't mean too. If he would of known he'd probably just kill himself because of the pressure
But anyways yes good point with the doctor It would be a hard choice

[Darkwing]

I know and as I said He didn't mean too. If he would of known he'd probably just kill himself because of the pressure
But anyways yes good point with the doctor It would be a hard choice

I wouldn't say kill himself. More likely curl up into a ball and freeze up, probably causing something aweful to happen because of his inaction. There is no clear cut path to victory for Shinji.

[MitsumuraKun51196]

I wouldn't say kill himself. More likely curl up into a ball and freeze up, probably causing something aweful to happen because of his inaction. There is no clear cut path to victory for Shinji.

Yah that's what I meant,
For some reason I love this series so much It gives me some kind of feeling I don't know what.

[Kendrix]

Thinking on what Darkwing said about Anno going overboard with the scale/resonable expectations, I keep thinking of last B.

Even Anno must've realized that "philosophical victory" alone ("Okay, I'll stay on this planet no matter how much it sux", or, in Rebuild's case, "accepting responsibility", whatever that's supposed to mean. ) isn't quite enough, which is why he didn't use that blasted thing. So yeah, maybe he IS keeping that in mind and has actual plans.

[Darkwing]

What's last B?

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Don't ask, trust me.

[Hyper Shinchan]

I'm not suggesting that we use this "subconscious" stuff as an excuse to Shinji-bash, but it is an angle that is present and needs to be acknowledged and explored in the discussion.

a) this presumed "subconscious desire" is being used from at least a pair of summers to bash Shinji.
b) if it's really present then it's quite peculiar that it's not been further discussed in Q, Kaworu never tried to say that Shinji somehow unconsciously wanted to do that, au contraire:

00:52:10 {Shinji} All I did was save Ayanami!
00:52:16 {Kaworu} True, but that was the catalyst...

He only tried to force Shinji to accept the result of his acts, he didn't blame him for his (conscious or subconscious) intents.

What's last B?

What makes One More Final a "happy" ending by sheer contrast:
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Episode_26%27#.22Last_B.22

[Reichu]

this presumed "subconscious desire" is being used from at least a pair of summers to bash Shinji.

"A pair of summers"?

if it's really present then it's quite peculiar that it's not been further discussed in Q

That's why I said "subtext", as opposed to "stuff that we're spoonfed". Kaworu's line about Shinji preferring 'nothingness and brutal abyss' to change is clearly there for a reason. Not to mention:

- Kaworu mentioning how humans change the world instead of themselves, possess a 'death instinct' that compels them toward human instrumentality, etc.
- In the hell train, Shinji talks about how much the world sucks and seems to feel pretty justified in running away from the things that hurt him.
- The SDAT, with all of its symbolic baggage, is brought back to Shinji by his actions to save Rei.
- Ritsuko makes it fairly clear that everything Eva-01 is doing is fundamentally tied to bringing about somebody's wish.
- Earlier in the movie, Gendo said of 2I, "there are also those who desired this outcome. A world untainted by original sin that no man may enter."
- I feel that we're supposed to connect these words to Third Impact (which "continues" the second). First of all, the music by which Eva-01 awakens is mysteriously called "Sin From Genesis". (Maybe there's a simpler explanation for this that I just haven't heard.) And Shinji ultimately cordons himself off inside Eva-01 in blissful ignorance of the world -- that he not long ago said is a cruel place worth escaping -- going to hell.

Quick and dirty list format because most of this was covered extensively by those previous Shinji threads.

He only tried to force Shinji to accept the result of his acts, he didn't blame him for his (conscious or subconscious) intents.

One step at a time, I suppose? Maybe if Kaworu had kept his head longer, he would have gotten Shinji to start "digging a little deeper", but by the time they were forced into Eva-13, Shinji just wasn't at the right stage of the healing process for it.

Or maybe Kaworu just plain mishandled this aspect. In hindsight, maybe letting Shinji get back into an Eva before addressing the dark forces in the boy's mind that catalyze Evas into apocalypse machines wasn't the greatest idea in the world.

Kaworu: Oh, well, two wrongs make a right! :splat:

I hope to see this unconscious stuff further explored in 4.0, since I don't really expect Shinji to stay away from Evas, and he doesn't stand a chance in hell of overcoming his habit of "triggering" them without becoming significantly more self-aware...

[Hyper Shinchan]

"A pair of summers"?

I meant to say "from summer 2010", when I returned in this forum, just after the release of 2.0 in home video.

Kaworu's line about Shinji preferring 'nothingness and brutal abyss' to change is clearly there for a reason.

Are we sure about that line's translation? I remember that it was much less brutal in a first revision, then last time I checked out the translated script I found that thing.
Anyway I'm unsure about the relation of most events mentioned in the list with Shinji's unconscious desire, in particular isn't the SDAT supposed to have a positive symbolic value? It represented Shinji's hopes in his father first, Rei's affection for him later and lastly his friendship with Kaworu, actually it's his apparent separation from the SDAT at the end of Q which puzzles me, it's like he cut himself from the world once again, just like when he dropped it before leaving Nerv.

One step at a time, I suppose? Maybe if Kaworu had kept his head longer, he would have gotten Shinji to start "digging a little deeper", but by the time they were forced into Eva-13, Shinji just wasn't at the right stage of the healing process for it.

Or maybe Kaworu just plain mishandled this aspect. In hindsight, maybe letting Shinji get back into an Eva before addressing the dark forces in the boy's mind that catalyze Evas into apocalypse machines wasn't the greatest idea in the world.

I agree that Kaworu probably mishandled Shinji, putting him inside an Eva in that state of mind was dangerous, personally I think that it was mostly because he was running out of time, apparently they had to use Eva-13 in that precise moment and he used some "trickery" to convince Shinji which later backfired because of unplanned obstacles. But I don't know if he planned to dig deeper later on, assuming there was something else to dig out, Kaworu was already pretty straightforward when he showed the truth to Shinji.

[Reichu]

Are we sure about that line's translation?

I was doing some line checking and found out that the first stab at translating that line (something about "stability") didn't come anywhere close to the original Japanese and its sheer WTF factor. I'm sure the translation can be streamlined somewhat from what I put down, but "Instead of seeking change, you prefer a world of nothingness and brutal abyss" is quite literally what Kaworu says.

in particular isn't the SDAT supposed to have a positive symbolic value?

The SDAT doesn't seem to represent any one thing. You're right that it has some positive symbolic weight. It also has some "meta" symbolism. And it's an object that Shinji uses to escape from the world and avoid dealing with people. The interpretation can have some conflicting results, predictably.

Here's a couple of earlier discussions that I was able to find. I'd look more, but it's pretty late...

http://forum.evageeks.org/post/446126/Significance-in-Shinjis-Cassette-Player/#446126
http://forum.evageeks.org/post/389540/Shinjis-portrayal-in-Eva-20-222/#389540
http://forum.evageeks.org/post/434296/Shinjis-portrayal-in-Eva-20-222/#434296

And I somehow forgot to include this in my list before.

But I don't know if he planned to dig deeper later on, assuming there was something else to dig out

I feel like something is being built up to, but all a matter of seeing what Anno decides to follow up on, isn't it? I could either be vindicated or disappointed.

[Darkwing]

Argh, this is what I hate about symbolism, the way it can mean radically different things based on peoples perceptions. I swear if high school english classes are to be belived the only thing Moby Dick isn't about is a whale.

[Reichu]

Argh, this is what I hate about symbolism, the way it can mean radically different things based on peoples perceptions.

The SDAT having conflicting symbolic weight is probably intentional. Life and human nature are pretty paradoxical, and Evangelion has always reflected this pretty well.

[Kendrix]

Then there is, of course, the possibility that Kaworu not saying anything about Shinji's intital intentions is really because those really weren't the problem, the unforseen adverse results are.
I say its at least a legit viewpoint by occam's razor.

Is the concept of taking responsibility for something caused by a completely unintentional screwup really so new? It's notably something the person themselves choses or doesn't chose to do, and more about their personal salvation.
Which is probably what Anno probably wants to talk about here, because unitentionally blowing up the planet is very hard to accomplish IRL, most people with Nukes or things producing lots of carbon dioxide know what Nukes or carbon dioxide do.
But it is pretty likely for someone to make a decision that had unforseen results, and made them feel like their personal world got destroyed/turned against them, like, losing their job somehow.

Reichu, you were bringing out that quote about that "death instinct" thing... but Kaworu sorta discribes it as something inherent in everything the FAR (assuming they still exists, but he said "programming". Which implies programmers.) ever created.

By that logic about those "unconcious intentions", even putting a monkey in EVA 01 would've eventually resulted in an impact, and Shinji is just the poor sod that got picked.

If the playwer was supposed to stand by all that is bad, why have that scene of Kaworu fixing it and Shinji discarding him when he's once again, complete hopeless?
Shouldn't it be the other way around then?
That seems to mesh way better with the interpretation I had since 2.0, that this is partially just a symbolic indicator for Shinji's general state.

Getting something back that he threw away when he walzed out of nerv in a tempertantrum can't be that bad.

It is also to be noted in from the 13 min camrip, he holds it out to Rei like he means for her to take it and keep it as her little keepsake for good.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

The death instinct stuff was in NGE to (destrudo) but you had to go digging to actually see it, Q is in your face about it and it's probably a good thing it is. Shinji being the poor sod that was picked was even the case in EoE, Seele was going to do it without him but then he became a target of opportunity because of Yui's antics. It's meant to be an intrinsic flaw to humanity that I suspect would go all the way back to the FAR themselves. Shinji just keeps having the bad luck of being in the wrong place at the wrong time when it kicks in.

[MitsumuraKun51196]

But remember Shinji can only find love if he finds love in himself.
Gendo is planning something remember how Fuyutsuki Said "The stories of our lives how cruel."In 1.0. Think about that

[KingXanaduu]

It's amazing how a character such as Shinji can invoke such a multitude of reactions from not only from the people around him, but to the viewers as well, especially when we talk and debate about him.

It's like, one minute, I want to comfort and hold him, whispering, "Shhh, it's going to be okay, it's alright, everything will be okay. You're not going to be alone."

And in the next, I want to shake my head in defeat and groan, "Will somebody please end him already? I'm sick of his whining and *****ing. It's your fault, deal with it, don't drag the rest of the world into your problems."

Anno is freaking brilliant for creating such a polarizing protagonist, which half of the time, I have no idea what to root for. He has a tread for doing that for all his characters, doesn't he?

[Darkwing]

It's amazing how a character such as Shinji can invoke such a multitude of reactions from not only from the people around him, but to the viewers as well, especially when we talk and debate about him.

It's like, one minute, I want to comfort and hold him, whispering, "Shhh, it's going to be okay, it's alright, everything will be okay. You're not going to be alone."

And in the next, I want to shake my head in defeat and groan, "Will somebody please end him already? I'm sick of his whining and *****ing. It's your fault, deal with it, don't drag the rest of the world into your problems."

Anno is freaking brilliant for creating such a polarizing protagonist, which half of the time, I have no idea what to root for. He has a tread for doing that for all his characters, doesn't he?

I wonder if Anno isn't using some of his own experience with how people reacted to the original Eva here. Irregardless of what he wanted, of what he was trying to do, a lot of people were upset, hence the infamous death threats. Sure you weren't trying to, but you did piss them off there.

[Mr. Tines]

I wonder if Anno isn't using some of his own experience with how people reacted to the original Eva here.

That and the previous new movies -- I made a Shinji = Anno interpretation on similar lines in the first few days after Q was released,

[CyberXIII]

I'm going to throw this out here.

After watching the whole thing (well, most of it), in conjunction with the ending of 2.0, I can't help but wonder.

Did WILLE think that Shinji was the 13th Angel? The collar activated when the 13th's blue pattern activated, and combined with Ritsuko screaming that Shinji "wouldn't be human anymore" (and as usual was flat-out wrong) I wonder if they all assumed that what came out of EVA-01's core was a monster shaped like Shinji.

It would explain a lot, and certainly puts their interactions with him in a new light. The tragedy is that they were wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.

[SaltyJoe]

^ Probably right. They tagged his feet in a way that made it seem like they are uncertain of his identity, and if you look closely, you can see those same Angel contamination pillars found in Asuka's quarantine room (from 2.22) when we see Shinji being retrieved(?).