Shinji Character Analysis (2.0/3.0)

[Drabant]

Problem comes in when he succeeds. He saves Rei...now what? With the way Eva always seemed to work if he wanted to I assume Shinji could of went back with Rei, but he goes the other way. He decides he likes his nice Rei bubble, fuck the world, and thus 3I starts. He definitely doesn't know this at the time though. Being the extremely broken, messed up, 14 year old that he is, he figures he can be in his bubble consequence free.

We learn in 3.0 that he was so very very wrong, but I tend to side with Kaworu's take on it (if I read it correctly) that he shouldn't be hated and scorned like everyone else has been treating him, but he does have to take responsibility for the fact his actions did cause 3I, even if it was unintentional.

Shinji didn't really have a choice. He had no idea Third Impact was starting, all he sees is blue. No vision outside, just bliss.

3.0 reveals that he didn't know anything about any third impact happening, much less actually starting it.

Kaworu isn't blaming Shinji, he is just telling him what happened, and what Shinji's actions were part of creating.

[Darkwing]

Okay time to deal with something else. Why some people are blaming the writers for things. Because right now you can feel that Shinji has set up to be damned, with no chance of redemption. It feels like they will not allow things to get better for Shinji. That it doesn't matter what choice he makes, will make things worse. He's being railroaded. Faluire is the only options. It doesn't matter if he accepts what he's done. Somehow that'll still make things worse.

I thought the message of Eva was that you have to open up and accept the world if you want it to accept you, and that you can find happiness no matter how bad it seems. But the message of 3.0 is that you must accept responsabilty and guilt for the resualts of you actions. But how can you be accepted by the world if every time you start to open up and accept it, it slams the door in your face and rejects you? If it seems like the world is out to get you, why try to get it to accept you? How can Shinji accept what he has done, and be happy? If he accepts the responsibility, then he must feel the guilt and regret. If he feels happy he can't truly be feeling the guilt, he's ignoring. At this point how can her be forgiven, redeemed or find Salvation? I just don't see it. Either Shinji runs from his guilt, or he must spend the rest of his life haunted by regret and guilt. We see no way for this to be reconciled. It's either running away, or misery.

[Seele00TextOnly]

I get you're having problems with the movie, but let me absolve you of a certain misconception: That he can't do anything. Well, the truth is, he can. He can listen to what Misato and Wille have to say. He can not run off to his father and Nerv and he can not get back into an Eva. He can not go gallivanting into his mother's OTHER basement embracing yet another otaku empowerment fantasy. 'Oh if I just do this thing I can set it right.' Guess what kid, quick fixes don't work. Guess what else, after having an infodump thanks to Fuyutsuki and possibly Gendo about your mother and the Eva's, you should be running the fuck out of the building NOT climbing back into ANOTHER Eva.

So yes there's lots of things he can do. He can take up reading. Maybe all those books he was stacking up for Rei, why not give them a second go yourself? How about pottery. Have you ever looked into model trains? I'm sure there's plenty of things he could fill in on the future's Wikipedia. Maybe take up kendo. I'm sure there's lots of history to catch up on, maybe browse the web a while.

How about NOT letting your new friend shoulder your burden (the collar). How about NOT being a dupe YET AGAIN to your father and those around him.

Shinji had no other options? Please. Let it go.

[CyberXIII]

Yes, because I'm certain Gendo and Misato are going to let their most valuable pawn go into hiding and have a peaceful life for the rest of his days. Certainly a 14 year old that doesn't age wouldn't attract any attention at all.

Ignoring the fact that Misato STRAPPED A BOMB TO HIS THROAT, Shinji was fucking desperate and I can't blame him. His worst fear just came to life; everyone literally does hate him now. (Ironically it's for the very thing that I and most of the general readership that don't frequent these boards praised him for.) Do you really think he's rational at this point. If anything I'm surprised he hasn't gone on a killing spree yet.

And please don't give me that crap about Wille. Misato's already gotten to the point where she's no better than Gendo. The only difference is that she's on the opposite side of a battle that's become nearly pointless.

[Xard]

And please don't give me that crap about Wille. Misato's already gotten to the point where she's no better than Gendo. The only difference is that she's on the opposite side of a battle that's become nearly pointless.

They're organization trying to stop Gendo's plans and presumed wipeout of human race. By any measure they're good guys. It's as if Misato had organization backing herself in EoE instead of being solitary figure with no hope to stop Third Impact.

That fight is not pointless and lands Misato clearly into the good guys camp. Her measures may be harsh but I don't blame her after the shit Shinji pulled in 2.0 - remember she's ready to blow up whole NERV in NGE ep 24 too so this isn't even new thing

[Seele00TextOnly]

The battle is only pointless if you only care about Shinji, if you're so hellbent on staying tied to him as your focal point of experiencing this universe. Not so to me anyway.

As for Misato wouldn't allow him? Well sure she puts the collar on but he's allowed to live, and I pressume wouldn't be kept in confinement forever but who knows. He could still live, and as Yui says about living, so long as you're still alive then you have a chance to be happy. Or something.

But the point is, his running away and his refusal to accept responsibility for his actions are not things he HAS to do, they are things he CHOOSES to do. He chooses to not bear full responsibility. He chooses to allow his new friend to take his burden for him. He chooses to go back to those who so clearly manipulated him from the beginning and who are clearly deranged.

These movies are about consequences. Consequences and living with them. Shinji is refusing to see that and maybe some of the rest of us are too.

[CyberXIII]

And they're using the exact same methodology Gendo patented: using 14 year old puppets to fight their battles for them. If anything Wille is the lesser of the three evils.

Well, two, considering NERV is pretty much SEELE's proxy now that everyone with a fragment of a conscience left.

[Seele00TextOnly]

Um, two of them are 28 now. Doesn't seem they were using Shinji for anything.

Is there no merit to what I'm saying that this false equivocation between Wille and Nerv won't solve? Is that really the extent of the rebuttal here?

[Xard]

And they're using the exact same methodology Gendo patented: using 14 year old puppets to fight their battles for them. If anything Wille is the lesser of the three evils.

Well, shit sucks man but what else can you use to destroy Evas than Evas (and Wille's main battleship, apparently)?

Asuka and Mari aren't even kids anymore.

Well, two, considering NERV is pretty much SEELE's proxy now that everyone with a fragment of a conscience left.

Actually certain spoilers seem to indicate SEELE has perished and Gendo does live up to his status of "king of lilims" as result.

[esselfortium]

Excellent posts, Seele :)

And they're using the exact same methodology Gendo patented: using 14 year old puppets to fight their battles for them. If anything Wille is the lesser of the three evils.

Asuka and Mari are now nearly 30, and there's no indicator that they've been mislead or misinformed.

e:f,b on all counts

[Darkwing]

But how do you live with the consequences of having killed off a good chunk of the human race? Oh you can be happy as long as you are alive. Sounds like something out of a cheap self help book. So the doctor tells you your family is all dead, you lost all limbs, your sight, and your body is covered in horrible burns that will make your every waking moment agony. But hey, alive, so you can be happy! Sorry, don't buy it. My viewpoint is such that I am not taking away that message.

And I treat Shinji as the focal charecter because he is. he's the main charecter. 3.0. The story focuses on him. I treat him as the focus, because he is. It's his story.
Edit
I'm not saying Shinji shouldn't face the consquences. What I'm asking is what are the consequences. How can he face them? Is he damned? Can he be forgiven? Should he? Can he be happy while accepting that guilt? In a traditional narritive, Shinji would have to do something like go on a quest. He would have to go on a quest. Earn forgivness from a higher power, or do some action that grants him redemption, balancing the scales of Karma. But Eva is not a traditional narritive. I can see no way for him to both accept what he has done, all that guilt and responsiblity? Feeling sorry isn't going to bring those people back. So how can he be happy, while accepting his guilt for something so huge? I cannot reconcile that. That is the conundroum that stumps me.

[Seele00TextOnly]

Evangelion has always been a cast based character study. It still is in my book. That means Shinji can *gasp* be in the wrong. Y'know, like he was before too.

As for how does he live with what he's done? I dunno, that might have been interesting to explore. I think they're going to have to explore that finally in the next movie. One way though is sure as heck not to go doing the same kind of crap that got you in this position in the first place.

Also that 'self help' thing was Yui's words from the end of EoE. Not that I'm a big defender of hers but still.

[Darkwing]

Evangelion has always been a cast based character study. It still is in my book. That means Shinji can *gasp* be in the wrong. Y'know, like he was before too.

As for how does he live with what he's done? I dunno, that might have been interesting to explore. I think they're going to have to explore that finally in the next movie. One way though is sure as heck not to go doing the same kind of crap that got you in this position in the first place.

Also that 'self help' thing was Yui's words from the end of EoE. Not that I'm a big defender of hers but still.

Oh, Shini's wrong. But Eva is a complex story. So even if he's wrong Shinji can be not all wrong. Or doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. Or the wrong thing for the right reasons. Does he deserve hatred? Or is he but a pawn and victim? Or both?

And yeah, Yui said it. But it's sorta trite and empty. It feels like it cannot be reconciled with the moral of 3.0. And this Shinji has fucked up way worse than EOE Shinji. So I get left with questions.

The thing with an a work like Eva, is that the same events can get very different interpritations between different viewers. Many of which the creators could never have seen coming.

[Drabant]

Shinji had no other options? Please. Let it go.

How about you let it go? Frankly I don't really see your point.

Shinji has other options, there are always other options. But they might at the time seem like bad options given what is known. Some options you mentioned are just downright retarded and would have resulted in something much, much worse than what happened.

So to find what options you have that will lead to a good outcome, you have to act on the best of your knowledge, given what you know, and act in a morally defensible manner.

If he does that, and comes up with only one option, then he has no other options. That's what it means, and this should be obvious to anyone not grasping for straws that there are "other options".

[esselfortium]

How about you let it go? Frankly I don't really see your point.

Shinji has other options, there are always other options. But they might at the time seem like bad options given what is known. Some options you mentioned are just downright retarded and would have resulted in something much, much worse than what happened.

Which one of Seele's options would have been worse than global genocide? The Wikipedia one?

So to find what options you have that will lead to a good outcome, you have to act on the best of your knowledge, given what you know, and act in a morally defensible manner.

Indeed, and Shinji's actions in this movie are starkly at odds with both of those goals.

Recall that Shinji's entire motive for running away from Nerv at the end of 2.0 was because he decided he could never trust Gendo again after the Eva-03 incident. Here he doesn't seem to hesitate before running back to work for Gendo again, not even after Misato flat-out tells him about Gendo's evil plans. Even if he thinks Misato is lying, he had already recognized that his dad didn't care about him and wasn't to be trusted. He acts repeatedly in ways that are completely opposite what could be considered remotely sensible given his current knowledge and understanding of his situation.

[Drabant]

Which ones? In Seele's list of better options I legitimately can't figure out which ones you're saying are going to somehow cause a worse outcome than Fourth Impact.

First I'll say that I had Third Impact in mind, and not the Fourth while considering these options, and I imagined that his reply was a reply to mine as I was talking about Third Impact. The option provided to not do anything would result in a worse Third Impact than the one that happened (or nearly happened?)

An Angel Impact, leaving not much control or anything else.

That's the context I was thinking of these options in, which might have been a mistake, but if Seele's reply was to me (seemed that way since we were discussing "options"), then it's just as much his for ignoring the subject at hand.

As for Fourth Impact, it is harder to tell I admit because the situation isn't as pressing, but I would say that given what Shinji knows, doing nothing would be downright impossible given how Misato and the rest has treated him, the distrust that is sown is complete. When he is shown "proof" that Misato might be lying, then he really has to stick with what he knows.

But "giving up" and taking up pottery? Sitting there for a whole movie doing nothing but making pottery while the world crumbles around him? God knows what could have happened then.
How's that for an idea, to give up and submit? When everything you know says that you shouldn't?

Indeed, and Shinji's actions in this movie are starkly at odds with both of those goals.

Shinji did act on the best of his knowledge at one point, though. That isn't at odds.

I need more details to see if in this new movie, it was morally defensible or not.

One can say that Shinji fucked up in this movie, which he did big time, I can agree there.
I have to learn more about to make a more accurate assessment.

[esselfortium]

Zeruel was already dead before Shinji dove in and started Third Impact. "Not doing anything" was decidedly not his only alternative in that fight, given that his choice that screwed everyone over was made after he had already killed the angel.

But "giving up" and taking up pottery? Sitting there for a whole movie doing nothing but making pottery while the world crumbles around him? God knows what could have happened then.
How's that for an idea, to give up and submit? When everything you know says that you shouldn't?

What could have happened then? Certainly not another catastrophic impact event!

As I said in my post above (you missed it, I think I edited while you were posting), everything he knows actually says he should step back and not make a bunch of totally irresponsible decisions.

The world was only crumbling around him because of what he did last time, and making the same decisions again here coincidentally led to the world crumbling around him again. If you're in a hole, stop digging.

[Drabant]

Zeruel was already dead before Shinji dove in and started Third Impact. "Not doing anything" was decidedly not his only alternative in that fight, given that his choice that screwed everyone over was made after he had already killed the angel.

Can't say I remember that happening. Zeruel was down, but not dead. If Zeruel was dead, then he couldn't have dived in either. So I think that's something that contradicts itself, and unless there's something I'm missing, we should agree that Zeruel wasn't dead before he dove in.

The important part here is that Shinji is acting out of genuine effort to defeat the Angel and set things right by saving Rei, and as far as anyone knows, perhaps excluding Gendo, it is nothing but pure well-intentioned effort, Misato agreed. There are no Third Impact implications made, and Shinji himself does not know. He doesn't know in 3.0 either.

So as far as acting on the best of his knowledge, and in a morally defensible manner, Shinji is doing great. What happened was unfortunate, but the entirety of Evangelion is an unfortunate state of affairs.

As I said in my post above (you missed it, I think I edited while you were posting), everything he knows actually says he should step back and not make a bunch of totally irresponsible decisions.

The world was only crumbling around him because of what he did last time, and making the same decisions again here coincidentally led to the world crumbling around him again. If you're in a hole, stop digging.

First of all, you aren't digging when you're trying to get out of the hole.

While Shinji was wrong to run away, he was certainly not wrong in coming back.

As for 3.0, it's hard to say.
My previous post sums it up.

[Seele00TextOnly]

Zeruel was dead when Eva-01 fired its light beam at it, bisecting it up the middle, and causing the telltale rainbow to appear. It was dead. But he marched on towards it to complete the rescue mission.

As to why Zeruel still had remains and didn't then all to blood, clearly the Rei / Eva-00 component that had merged within it was still intact. In fact Eva-01 pulls out the core of Eva-00 within it, which is where Rei was and why Eva-01 ends up with a dual core S2 in the closing moments.

Ironically, it's conceivable that Rei and her core could have been conventionally salvaged from Zeruel's remains.

Also, Seele00 is a girl, desu.

(Edit: Zeruel, goofy phone)

[dfer131]

OK… I may be missing the point but why are killing Zeruel, saving Rei, and starting 3rd impact considered separate things? I was always under the impression that once Shinji/ Eva 01 goes god mode that there no turning back or pausing, he has to kill Zeruel which leads to saving Rei and inadvertently causing 3rd impact. Anyway just my 2 cents, please feel free to educate me if I’m missing some important factor.