Three Evas, two kids, and a treaty: What the hell?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby SaltyJoe » Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:02 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It wasn't their idea, it was the terms of the treaty.

Once again, i would like to point out that Ritsuko makes it explicit that the decisions about Unit-02 (and it's pilot) are made by the European government. From that i think it follows pretty logically that the E.U. agreed to Unit-02 getting sealed away by the IPEA as a compromise between the various factions. So by the time 02 gets put into storage, there is no reason for outrage. In fact, the lack of outrage can be taken as the most telling sign about a deal that was made with the agreement of all parties involved. Well, all parties except Asuka. As usual, it's the common man (girl) that gets the real short end of the stick.

Maybe there was some diplomatic tension behind the scenes, but i don't think that would be something crucial that must be shown within the movies itself.

Also, Brainman suggested Nerv Japan just sort of put away Unit-02 on it's own authority, and that is something that's outright denied by the movie.

How is that unclear? It was my understanding that those are the exact terms of the treaty, and were explained as such by Ritsuko in that very scene.

There is a difference between the terms "no country can own more than three Evas" and "no country can host more than three active Evangelions, no matter who owns them". The first is the restriction that was mentioned in the movie (in an earlier scene, actually), the second is what we see put into effect. Probably both terms apply, but the details of the treaty are never clearly explained, not like it's needed that much.
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Postby bladerj » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:48 am

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:If I may elaborate on a couple of your points, the fact that they put the fully functional ostensibly more advanced Production Model Eva-02 into storage when the damaged Prototype Eva-00 is left out is simply ridiculous.

Also, that they chose Rei as the pilot of it when she's already got an Eva that they are superseding logic to keep out of storage is further absurdity on top of it all. She can't pilot two Eva's at once. There's no reason she would have been assigned; the assignment would only go to her if Eva-00 was put into storage. Since Eva-02 was instead, the default assignment should have gone to Asuka.

Also, let's not forget that sending this fourth Eva to Japan forces one into storage due to the new addition to the plot, the Vatican Treaty. This differs from the show in that its addition would provide extraordinary incentive for Eva-03 to not be brought to Japan for testing in the first place; it should have gone to another country that didn't have it's quota met yet, like Germany. Germany had recently lost one of its Eva to Japan and given all the international squabbling over who gets to have Eva's, you'd think that Germany would be eager to have it there.


it makes perfect sense,eva 00 is damage but they were going to test a new one,they know they can lose Rei if an acident happen on activation,so they choose her to pilot.they were safe guarding the more advanced eva in case the new more advanced didnt work out.And they knew Asuka wouldnt change her eva.

What was botched was the commander in chief listen to the whim of a girl and change the rotation of assigned pilot, and that Asuka didnt mind evas if they are red, wtf ? if the eva activation went online,would they REALLY die it red just for her ? and what of unit 02 ,would it passed to Rei,and unit 00 be scrap for parts ?
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:43 pm

Gendo clearly had a hand in keeping Units 00 and 01 online, since he wanted direct command of the Evangelions in Tokyo. Also, he was never going to put Unit-01 on ice, since it contains whatever is left of Yui. (Remember, he addresses it as "Yui" while the Evangelion keeps rejecting the dummy plugs.)

Unit-00 was to be kept online as either expendable cannon fodder, or because there was something about it that we don't know about. Whatever that "something" was, it got absorbed into Unit-01 along with the Tenth Angel's ("Zeruel"'s) core.

And since Gendo is the actual person in command of Tokyo-3, neither SEELE (who are willing to scrap Unit-00) and IPEA (who have their own agenda, and have secret operatives Mari and Kaji on stand-by) can ignore him or go over his head.

Also note that IPEA had the authority to release Unit-02 with Mari at the helm during the Tenth Angel ("Zeruel") battle, while Gendo or Misato did not. Otherwise, they would have put Rei in there.

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Postby SaltyJoe » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:18 pm

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:Gendo clearly had a hand in keeping Units 00 and 01 online,

I'm going to assume that your post is at least somewhat a reply to my posts. I actually argued that it was probably Nerv Japan (Gendo) who vouched for Unit-00 being kept online, and Unit-01 was evidently out of the question. However, the most Gendo could do was probably pulling a few strings behind the scenes to make the E.U. come to accept the fact that their Unit is the one getting sealed.

And since Gendo is the actual person in command of Tokyo-3, neither SEELE (who are willing to scrap Unit-00) and IPEA (who have their own agenda, and have secret operatives Mari and Kaji on stand-by) can ignore him or go over his head.

Yes they can, they totally can. Seele already pretty much did with telling him to STFU and accept Unit-03. They probably weren't all that concerned with the rest of the details. Despite Gendo's imposing presence, and the fact that him being indispensable to Shinji's story almost certianly guarantees that he comes out of most situations unscatched, he is little more than Seele's errand boy who is playing a dangerous game of trying to outwit his masters.

And as you yourself pointed out, the IPEA had Unit-02 launched right under Gendo's nose without him having any say in the matter.*

On this note, i sincerely hope that Rebuild will reallly show Seele "rewarding" Gendo for his stunt with getting Unit-01 awakened before it is time instead of NGE's brilliant solution: "Ikari is traitorous!.....Eh, whatever." (roughly quoted from Episode 20). It's time to truly break some new ground instead of continuing the kid B pilots Unit X instead of kid A game.

*EDIT:
Which could really give the E.U. something to buttrage over, and if there will really be two more full length movies, there just might be enough time to depict itin a sdensible manner. I think Brainman already suggested something like this, somewhere, sometime.
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Postby Brainman » Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:00 pm

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:Which could really give the E.U. something to buttrage over, and if there will really be two more full length movies, there just might be enough time to depict itin a sdensible manner. I think Brainman already suggested something like this, somewhere, sometime.


Well I think it would be helpful to have some scenes detailing the relationship between these different factions a little more. Because all we really have to go on is stuff in the background and a few lines of dialogue so far. Does Gendo have any say over someone from a different Nerv branch? What methods does IPEA have for actually enforcing their protocol (what would they have done if Japan let themselves have an extra Eva)? If the Nerv branches work independently from each other, does Seele have any contact with these other branches or do they have to get their orders through Gendo? It gets confusing when international laws suddenly become an important part of the story but then the details aren't really elaborated on enough to understand what's going on. The Trade Federation forced Nerv to sign a treaty to make their meddling legal.

I think an easy way to sort of deal with this while still servicing the story is if they show a trial of sorts in the next movie conducted by the UN. You could have scenes with some jokers yelling "I always knew Ikari was up to no good!" And then have characters' pasts revealed when they remember joining Nerv and meeting Gendo etc. I dunno. Just makes sense to me if you're going to throw in international mistrust and spy stuff in your movie that you have some actual political intrigue to justify it. Because right now it seems most of what we're talking about is only inferred because we're not actually told anything explicit about how these countries and factions relate to each other.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:17 pm

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:Once again, i would like to point out that Ritsuko makes it explicit that the decisions about Unit-02 (and it's pilot) are made by the European government.


She can say that if she likes, but the fact that Gendo nixed the notion of putting Unit 00 or Unit 01 on ice sinks the argument before it begins (and since SEELE agreed to it that pretty much settles the matter). The EU didn't have a choice. Maybe she was just trying to placate Asuka, or maybe she was misinformed, but there's no way it can be the E.U.'s choice when they have exactly one option to consider.

(alternatively, perhaps SEELE amounts to the E.U. in this context. But even if that's so they agreed to Gendo's demands, which means it was ultimately his decision, authority be damned.)

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:On this note, i sincerely hope that Rebuild will reallly show Seele "rewarding" Gendo for his stunt with getting Unit-01 awakened before it is time instead of NGE's brilliant solution: "Ikari is traitorous!.....Eh, whatever." (roughly quoted from Episode 20). It's time to truly break some new ground instead of continuing the kid B pilots Unit X instead of kid A game.


I love the notion that Gendo's treachery had no consequence when the direct result of that decision was the kidnapping of Fuyutsuki, the interrogation (and possibly rape) of Ritsuko, and ultimately the invasion of NERV.

I mean srsly.
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Postby Warren Peace » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:21 pm

The central story of 2.0 isn't about "international mistrust and spy stuff". We're thinking about it because we're on a message board picking apart every second of the film. But from a storytelling standpoint, it is better to push that to another film, if that's the direction they're going.

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:22 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:The central story of 2.0 isn't about "international mistrust and spy stuff". We're thinking about because we're on a message board picking apart every second of the film. But from a storytelling standpoint, it is better to push that to another film, if that's the direction they're going.


Since it's the ham-fisted plot device that got Asuka into the cockpit of Unit 03 I'd say it's relevant.
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Postby Warren Peace » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:37 pm

That's got nothing to do with this, actually. Rei was initially chosen for the activation test before Asuka volunteered to take her place. The other governments didn't seem to have an opinion. Unit-02 just had to be put in a big darn hole, that's all. Asuka's choice to pilot was personal, not legal.

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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:51 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Since it's the ham-fisted plot device that got Asuka into the cockpit of Unit 03 I'd say it's relevant.

:headscratch: Ham-fisted? ...I'm not seeing it. I thought it was particularly reasonable and retroactively made NGE feel like something was missing. (If what we're talking about here specifically is the Vatican Treaty.)
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:54 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:That's got nothing to do with this, actually. Rei was initially chosen for the activation test before Asuka volunteered to take her place. The other governments didn't seem to have an opinion. Unit-02 just had to be put in a big darn hole, that's all. Asuka's choice to pilot was personal, not legal.


:facepalm:

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote::headscratch: Ham-fisted? ...I'm not seeing it. I thought it was particularly reasonable and retroactively made NGE feel like something was missing. (If what we're talking about here specifically is the Vatican Treaty.)


I'm talking about Unit 02 specifically. The treaty's weak, too, though, given that the fate of humanity's at stake. If they wanted plausibility it would make more sense to have an international presence in Japan to oversee things.

But then Gendo couldn't do his thing, so.
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Postby Brainman » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:59 pm

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:I thought it was particularly reasonable and retroactively made NGE feel like something was missing.


I don't find anything particularly reasonable about intentionally limiting the earth's ability to repel a direct threat to mankind's survival (international mistrust or no). It's also hamfisted because it sets up Asuka for Unit 03 without elaborating on what any of these new rules are actually about. It just kind of gets offhandedly mentioned in a scene.
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Postby Warren Peace » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:32 pm

Again, the circumstances of Eva-03 being airlifted to Japan are not changed from the series. It has nothing to do with the Vatican Treaty. It's transferred because the Unit-04 incident scared the U.S. Same as always. The Treaty does not demand that Asuka pilots, this choice is left to NERV. Asuka pilots to help out Rei. Someone who does not communicate in condescending smilie icons tell me if I have any of this wrong.

Nuclear weapons certainly represent "a direct threat to mankind's survival". In a sane world, we'd junk all of them and never look back. In reality, there are enough to destroy us many times over. World powers would work to control what happens to these war machines, perhaps at the expense of the moment. After you destroy the Angels, what happens then? That question would put enough fear into people to make the Vatican Treaty inevitable.
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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:35 pm

I was going to say something but then Warren Peace went and made all the sense out of it.
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Postby Brainman » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:51 pm

Well that's all well and good and I get that angle. But the thing is the Evas only ever barely win against angels (typically). Generally, the odds of survival against the angels are comically low. If Shinji hadn't gone super-nova against the 10th angel then humanity would have been toast. So thinking in practical terms it seems silly to me for Nerv to be concerned with protocol with stakes like that. Yeah, don't want to be in breach of the treaty. But what are the repercussions for breaking it? What is the penalty for having too many robots on at once? What scares them about defying the UN?

Although I do like the comparison between Evas and nukes (perhaps an intentional analogy in the script...must investigate further). And I would actually see that being tied into a possible tribunal situation in the next movie if someone asks the obvious question "Did we actually go and create something even worse than the angels?"
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Postby Warren Peace » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:00 am

View Original PostBrainman wrote:Yeah, don't want to be in breach of the treaty. But what are the repercussions for breaking it? What is the penalty for having too many robots on at once? What scares them about defying the UN?


I think then other countries start having conversations like, "how about we drop an actual Nuke on Nerv?" and "Has anyone seen the beginning of EOE? Let's do that." It would be seen as Japan maneuvering to take over the world and wouldn't end nicely.

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Postby Brainman » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:11 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:I think then other countries start having conversations like, "how about we drop an actual Nuke on Nerv?" and "Has anyone seen the beginning of EOE? Let's do that." It would be seen as Japan maneuvering to take over the world and wouldn't end nicely.


That would just be the UN and the other countries thinking that though. Seele itself probably isn't too afraid of that since they're planning Instrumentality anyway (presumably so in this version too). They also have Mark 06, which I guess puts Nerv's Evas to shame.

And I don't feel as though Evas make very good invasion weapons to begin with. They require insane amounts of money and material to upkeep and need large amounts of support to operate effectively (especially when cord powered). They're really better suited for defense. And as I stated earlier, a war between Nerv vs the world would end quickly. HQ just isn't built to withstand infiltration very well (probably by design). So I feel that when Ritsuko neglected to answer Misato when she jokingly suggested taking over the world in NGE, it wasn't because she thought it was a dangerous idea, but rather because it was an asinine idea. She dismissed the comment because she thought it was stupid for her to say.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:32 am

View Original PostBrainman wrote:Although I do like the comparison between Evas and nukes

http://wiki.evageeks.org/images/0/09/Ipea-logo.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Atomic_Energy_Agency
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
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Postby SaltyJoe » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:06 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:She can say that if she likes, but the fact that Gendo nixed the notion of putting Unit 00 or Unit 01 on ice sinks the argument before it begins (and since SEELE agreed to it that pretty much settles the matter). The EU didn't have a choice. Maybe she was just trying to placate Asuka, or maybe she was misinformed, but there's no way it can be the E.U.'s choice when they have exactly one option to consider.

Some sort of agreement was still reached, hence there being no outrage, which is the topic of debate. Unless anyone but the E.U. had the capacity to suspend their own pilot, which would be the weirdest thing ever.

I love the notion that Gendo's treachery had no consequence when the direct result of that decision was the kidnapping of Fuyutsuki, the interrogation (and possibly rape) of Ritsuko, and ultimately the invasion of NERV.

I mean srsly.

Yeah, they totally hampered Gendo's ability to play his little games for four more episodes and no wait he could do whatever he wanted to right up until the end. But they really showed him by having Ritsuko get humiliated. Some lesser omnipotent doomcults who pay the bills of the guy that's double-crossing them would have gone down the route of tired clichés like, i don't know, remove the guy from his position, maybe have him shot dead, but Seele has class. And don't tell me they couldn't just whip out another bearded asshole to do what they say to the letter.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:38 am

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:Some sort of agreement was still reached, hence there being no outrage, which is the topic of debate. Unless anyone but the E.U. had the capacity to suspend their own pilot, which would be the weirdest thing ever.


I'm saying it doesn't matter. If Gendo demands his units remain active and SEELE caves, what the E.U. thinks about the subject is irrelevant. Why are you trying to rationalize things when it's clear Gendo made the decision in conference with SEELE? How does anything the E.U. or Ritsuko might have to say on the subject matter after that?

Yeah, they totally hampered Gendo's ability to play his little games for four more episodes and no wait he could do whatever he wanted to right up until the end. But they really showed him by having Ritsuko get humiliated. Some lesser omnipotent doomcults who pay the bills of the guy that's double-crossing them would have gone down the route of tired clichés like, i don't know, remove the guy from his position, maybe have him shot dead, but Seele has class. And don't tell me they couldn't just whip out another bearded asshole to do what they say to the letter.


Someone who knew all the shit Gendo knew? Probably not. They needed him, and they knew it. They waited for him to do what he had to do and then they dismantled his organization and nuked him into oblivion. "Lack of consequences" my ass.

You don't shoot the guy who's in charge of saving the planet (and it's not like he wasn't doing well in that capacity; every stunt he pulled to piss off SEELE resulted in a dead Angel, so they can suck it). It's "well duh" 101.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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