Three Evas, two kids, and a treaty: What the hell?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby Brainman » Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:34 pm

What I don't really understand is why Asuka is just sent to Japan by herself if there's all this fuss over jurisdiction. Euro just gives her a passport, drops Unit 02 out of the plane and says "see ya!"? If all Nerv branches basically operate independently from each other, then how does the allocation of pilots work exactly? Shouldn't there be a liaison there from Euro to make sure everything is handled properly? Nerv Japan seems to make the call themselves to put Unit 02 away because Euro hasn't signed the papers to turn it over and Ritsuko says that they haven't even confirmed Asuka as the permanent pilot. Well what the hell is Euro doing then? What do they have going on that they don't even send confirmation RE: Evas and Defense of the Whole Planet?

Then apparently Asuka makes the choice herself to pilot Unit 03, an American unit, which I guess was signed over to Japan. So who holds Asuka's contract now? Does she still report to Euro? Or was she signed over to Japan full time? Didn't seem like it. In fact it almost felt like they were going to shrug and have her wait tables in a minute. Was she supposed to go back to Germany or wherever if she hadn't gone through with the test? If the tenth angel and Mari hadn't happened, would Euro have just let Unit 02 sit in isolation without making a phone call? Or did they actually send Mari secretly knowing that Asuka would be MIA by the time they need Mari to steal Unit 02 after they allowed it to be put away in the first place? If Euro weren't the ones who sent Mari and Asuka hadn't been deep fried, what would Mari have done during the angel attack? Try to beat Asuka to the cage? Pilot Unit 00? I just don't get it.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:49 pm

Just FYI, it would probably be more... "fluent" to call the "Euros" what we call them in English.

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(...they're the European Union.)
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:16 pm

^ Yeah, otherwise we should call the US "Beikoku", the UK "Igirisu" and so on...
View Original PostBrainman wrote:Nerv Japan seems to make the call themselves to put Unit 02 away because Euro hasn't signed the papers to turn it over and Ritsuko says that they haven't even confirmed Asuka as the permanent pilot. Well what the hell is Euro doing then?

They're sleeping. Jokes apart, Europe could have left it just in case it was needed again, after all the Angels were attacking only there, there was no hurry to send it back immediately.
View Original PostBrainman wrote:So who holds Asuka's contract now? Does she still report to Euro? Or was she signed over to Japan full time? Didn't seem like it.

It's possible that she reports to Japan as long as she's there, after all she acted under orders of Nerv Japan without requesting an authorisation on a case-by-case policy.
View Original PostBrainman wrote:If Euro weren't the ones who sent Mari and Asuka hadn't been deep fried, what would Mari have done during the angel attack? Try to beat Asuka to the cage? Pilot Unit 00? I just don't get it.

Probably she would have kept watching them, she apparently activated Eva-02 only because Nerv's destruction was imminent and she wanted to prevent it.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:23 pm

It makes even less sense if you know anything about how governments actually work. The notion of a piece of equipment of that nature being transferred with so little oversight is . . . amusing, to put it mildly. All the moreso if a foreign national is coming along with it (and a minor at that; Jesus fuck, I don't even wanna imagine what a nightmare that would be . . . ).
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:34 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It makes even less sense if you know anything about how governments actually work. The notion of a piece of equipment of that nature being transferred with so little oversight is . . . amusing, to put it mildly.

The United States share nuclear weapons with some NATO countries and in case of war these weapons would fall under full jurisdiction of the hosting countries, it's not really something out of this world, it would be exactly the same thing if there were Nerv EU officials monitoring Eva-02 when it was sealed (which shouldn't be excluded).
View Original PostBagheera wrote:All the moreso if a foreign national is coming along with it (and a minor at that; Jesus fuck, I don't even wanna imagine what a nightmare that would be . . . ).

The very idea of leaving a weaponry to a child is against international conventions and national laws, evidently laws have changed considerably in Evangelion, let's not forget that Asuka is an official of the European airforce.
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Postby Brainman » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:48 pm

Jokes apart, Europe could have left it just in case it was needed again, after all the Angels were attacking only there, there was no hurry to send it back immediately.


Well the thing there is that the Evas are only really valuable to them as weapons against angels. They don't do anyone any good in the fields of Dusseldorf or wherever. I don't know, I just assume there'd be offense taken at the idea of another country deactivating your nation's robot over a custody dispute. And this is still the fate of the world we're talking about here, not tariffs and customs.

Again, I'm puzzled as to why there's no communication between Asuka and her homeland. If she was so ruffled about Unit 02 being stashed why didn't she call General Hans Landa to tell him "YOU WONT BELIEVE WHAT THEY'RE DOING HERE!"?
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:10 am

View Original PostBrainman wrote:Well the thing there is that the Evas are only really valuable to them as weapons against angels.

Well, effectively JSSDF showed a quite effective way of dealing with Eva in EoE, but they still remain powerful weapons even with their reliance on external energy, Eva-02 won't do any good in the fields of Dusseldorf like you said (anyway a Leopard 2 would be equally useless there) but Japan could take over the world if it had every Evangelion (like Misato jokingly once said).
View Original PostBrainman wrote:And this is still the fate of the world we're talking about here, not tariffs and customs.

But politicians were already thinking about the world AFTER the invasion of the Angels, they probably knew nothing about 3I and whatnot, so they created a regime where no country can have more than 3 Evas at the same time.
Again, I'm puzzled as to why there's no communication between Asuka and her homeland. If she was so ruffled about Unit 02 being stashed why didn't she call General Hans Landa to tell him "YOU WONT BELIEVE WHAT THEY'RE DOING HERE!"?

Good question, Gendo apparently was against the retirement of Eva-00, and probably he wanted to keep fielding Eva-01 as well, so Eva-02 could have been left out because of that, anyway it still wouldn't explain the lack of communication, unless Nerv Europe wasn't eager to see its Eva to be used, and possibly destroyed, in battle.
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Postby Brainman » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:24 am

Eva-02 won't do any good in the fields of Dusseldorf like you said (anyway a Leopard 2 would be equally useless there) but Japan could take over the world if it had every Evangelion (like Misato jokingly once said).


The Evas would be effective as weapons in of themselves, but Nerv HQ itself is actually quite vulnerable (as demonstrated in EoE as you said). In the event of an actual Nerv invasion of the world, they wouldn't last too long before being dusted off from the inside. Evas aren't really self sufficient (until you get to the S2 capable ones that is). Even with unlimited power, they need expensive maintenance and upkeep. As weapons against angels, they are effective, but as methods for invasion or conquest, not so much.

So even if the Evas are winning a battle, back home the leadership is getting executed.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:31 am

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:The United States share nuclear weapons with some NATO countries and in case of war these weapons would fall under full jurisdiction of the hosting countries, it's not really something out of this world, it would be exactly the same thing if there were Nerv EU officials monitoring Eva-02 when it was sealed (which shouldn't be excluded).


Note ". . . with so little oversight." Nuke transfers have a hell of a lot of oversight attached to them. They are nothing like what we see in the case of Unit 02 and Shikinami in NME.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:36 am

View Original PostBrainman wrote:The Evas would be effective as weapons in of themselves, but Nerv HQ itself is actually quite vulnerable (as demonstrated in EoE as you said). In the event of an actual Nerv invasion of the world, they wouldn't last too long before being dusted off from the inside.

We're not talking about the agency but about the government itself; NERV HQ was vulnerable on purpose, in order to subside them easily if it were necessary to do so. On the other hand, the Japanese government could use them with adequate support as part of a broader military strategy against other countries, they wouldn't win with Evas alone but they could be a decisive weapon. At least this is the ratio behind the Vatican treaty imo, otherwise it would make no sense.

EDIT:
View Original PostBagheera wrote:Note ". . . with so little oversight." Nuke transfers have a hell of a lot of oversight attached to them. They are nothing like what we see in the case of Unit 02 and Shikinami in NME

Actually a 2008 USAF report said that they're lacking security.
Last edited by Hyper Shinchan on Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Brainman » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:39 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Note ". . . with so little oversight." Nuke transfers have a hell of a lot of oversight attached to them. They are nothing like what we see in the case of Unit 02 and Shikinami in NME.


Well, related to that (but not really), Misato just receives word that Unit 02 was coming as it drops out of an airplane. Did Europe actually neglect to inform Japan that they were sending it that day? Nor that they intended to field it in actual combat over Japanese airspace without her knowledge? Did Europe expect to see a dodo bird angel tip-towing across the ocean? If Europe knew it was coming, then why not Japan? Were they just transferring it impromptu when they saw the angel down there and said "Oh, hey, Asuka, looks like you're on kid! Oh and uh make sure you contact the commander when you land. Remember to hit the red thing. Ok, break a leg!"
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Postby Ornette » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:44 am

Of course Japan knew it was coming, as well as the Angel. Eva-00 was dispatched as back-up and the navy was there already engaged. Misato was notified of this after the fact since she was driving in a car, as opposed to something like, you know, in the command center.
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Postby Brainman » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:47 am

View Original PostOrnette wrote:Of course Japan knew it was coming, as well as the Angel. Eva-00 was dispatched as back-up and the navy was there already engaged. Misato was notified of this after the fact since she was driving in a car, as opposed to something like, you know, in the command center.


My problem with it I guess is that it was a really slow moving enemy. If there was enough time for the Navy to get involved with it and already have all this combat, why didn't Misato get a call before having to dodge falling debris? That seemed to catch her completely off guard.
Why do they even want the Loc-Nar? All it does is melt you.

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Postby Ornette » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:52 am

View Original PostBrainman wrote:My problem with it I guess is that it was a really slow moving enemy. If there was enough time for the Navy to get involved with it and already have all this combat, why didn't Misato get a call before having to dodge falling debris? That seemed to catch her completely off guard.

Because the situation was well in hand and under control. Misato didn't even need to do anything, and I was under the impression that she called HQ to ask wtf was going on.

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Postby Brainman » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:56 am

View Original PostOrnette wrote:Because the situation was well in hand and under control.


Whaaaaaaat? Those boats were junk before we even saw them. Asuka won through acrobatics but that was no guarantee. What if she wasn't hotshot and got impaled by a spike? It'd be game over. "Oh, don't bother calling Chief of Operations, she's with the kid. The new girl will handle it." Ya nah, come on.

But you know and I know that the real reason is because they wanted a big entrance for Asuka. But otherwise the scene makes no sense.
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Postby Ornette » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:01 am

View Original PostBrainman wrote:Whaaaaaaat? Those boats were junk before we even saw them. Asuka won through acrobatics but that was no guarantee. What if she wasn't hotshot and got impaled by a spike? It'd be game over. "Oh, don't bother calling Chief of Operations, she's with the kid. The new girl will handle it." Ya nah, come on.

The boats were pretty much useless but Eva-00 was there for backup. If Eva-02 got impaled by a spike then it would be up to Rei.

Additionally, the operation was under the command of a General James Henderson of the 3rd branch, as stated in the mission directive on Misato's display in her car. And the mission location specifically says a place where it's likely there will be an Angel attack.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:10 am

View Original PostBrainman wrote:Whaaaaaaat? Those boats were junk before we even saw them.

It's the usual story with those toys made nowadays, only 406 mm cannons at point-blank range can do something to an Angel. Anyway, the army is always around in Evangelion, sometimes they can also be of some use like during operation Yashima or against Israfel in NGE, but usually they're only there to waste ammunition for the sake of the industries.
View Original PostBrainman wrote:Oh, don't bother calling Chief of Operations, she's with the kid. The new girl will handle it." Ya nah, come on.

I suspect that Asuka would have launched, to show off, even if they hadn't ordered her to do so. Of course the staff also wanted a big entrance, like you said.
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Postby SaltyJoe » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:01 am

@Brainman: Honestly, i think you got the scene about the sealing away of Unit-02 all wrong.

View Original PostBrainman wrote:Nerv Japan seems to make the call themselves to put Unit 02 away

No they didn't. 02 was put into storage by the IPEA, in conjunction with the E.U., at the behest of the Vatican Treaty. Nerv Japan was just carrying out some of the technical details involved. I'm feeling a bit too lazy to post screencaps, but if you look at the dialog between Asuka and Ritsuko from the scene in question, the latter explains what's happening as "Well, it's the E.U.'s call, there is nothing we (as in, Nerv Japan) can do about it". You can also see that the silo 02 is put into is clearly marked as the property of the IPEA. Japan probably didn't really have much of a say in things outside of expressing their wish to keep Unit-00 active, as pointed to by an earlier scene with Gendo. In short, the E.U. wouldn't be riled over 02 being mothballed, since it was their idea in the first place.

As to why they decided so: this was probably their best bet to maintain the possibility of pulling their weight when the time comes by keeping 02 close to the fire, without breeching the treaty they just signed.

As a further note, this is unclear, but i'm under the impression that the specifics of the Vatican Treaty probably limit the number of active Evas that can be present in one country at a given time, regardless of ownership. That's why one of the Evas has to be put away, even though Japan only owns three (since the U.S. gave 03 to Japan along with the rights of ownership).
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:52 am

Excellent explanation, SaltyJoe, but I've one note about the last part: was it ever explicitly mentioned that the US waived ownership rights over Unit 03? I had the impression that they were only giving it for the sake of fighting the Angels with the latest equipment, like Europe did, and at the same time they freed their hands from the risks of the activation test. I understand that they were shocked by the loss of Unit-04 and its base but completely waiving any right over the unit looks a little extreme in my opinion. Or am I missing something?
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:50 am

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:No they didn't. 02 was put into storage by the IPEA, in conjunction with the E.U., at the behest of the Vatican Treaty. Nerv Japan was just carrying out some of the technical details involved. I'm feeling a bit too lazy to post screencaps, but if you look at the dialog between Asuka and Ritsuko from the scene in question, the latter explains what's happening as "Well, it's the E.U.'s call, there is nothing we (as in, Nerv Japan) can do about it". You can also see that the silo 02 is put into is clearly marked as the property of the IPEA. Japan probably didn't really have much of a say in things outside of expressing their wish to keep Unit-00 active, as pointed to by an earlier scene with Gendo. In short, the E.U. wouldn't be riled over 02 being mothballed, since it was their idea in the first place.


It wasn't their idea, it was the terms of the treaty. Since Gendo refused to budge on Unit 00 and Unit 01 it's not like they had a choice in the matter. The lack of outrage (from anyone other than Asuka, at least) is nonsensical.

As a further note, this is unclear, but i'm under the impression that the specifics of the Vatican Treaty probably limit the number of active Evas that can be present in one country at a given time, regardless of ownership. That's why one of the Evas has to be put away, even though Japan only owns three (since the U.S. gave 03 to Japan along with the rights of ownership).


How is that unclear? It was my understanding that those are the exact terms of the treaty, and were explained as such by Ritsuko in that very scene.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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