Groupthink on the Boards?

[Sailor Star Dust]

I'm so used to hearing it that "Child" sounds wrong to me.

Quoted For Truth.

Personally, I think Children should stay. Gainax/various scoures say that it's NOT a translation error; it's simply being used akin to the word "Qualifier". If worst comes to worse, I say we should just have a poll for this in the Invisible Forum.

Also, Lilith, Adam & the Evas should stay as "she" since they are Mother Beings and or referred to that way in the show. (Plus calling Lilith and Adam "she" will make it clear that any of that Pointless Religious Symbolism bullcrap about "Adam's first wife"/Adam and Lilith made the Angels together is BS.)

But again, if we have to, let's vote on this too, once the Project is jumpstarted again.

[V]

There is no Invisible Forum!

[CitizenGeek]

Personally, I think Children should stay. Gainax/various scoures say that it's NOT a translation error; it's simply being used akin to the word "Qualifier". If worst comes to worse, I say we should just have a poll for this in the Invisible Forum.

Nah, it's confusing and jarring. Using what will appear to be incredibly poor English will confuse the fans who aren't aware of this (which will be those who've watched it dubbed, and subbed by ADV).

Also, Lilith, Adam & the Evas should stay as "she" since they are Mother Beings and or referred to that way in the show. (Plus calling Lilith and Adam "she" will make it clear that any of that Pointless Religious Symbolism bullcrap about "Adam's first wife"/Adam and Lilith made the Angels together is BS.)

They are "mother beings" in the sense that the aliens in some cheesy 60's B-movie are launched from the "mother ship". That's my interpretation of it, anyway. I know I don't have stone-written 'facts' on my side, but neither do you and you should acknowledge this.

But again, if we have to, let's vote on this too, once the Project is jumpstarted again.

What's there to vote on? It's not a fact that Adam is female, it's not for us to decide. It should be left up to the readers of the Evapedia to decide, considering it's open to interpretation.

[Sailor Star Dust]

There is no Invisible Forum!

I mean it's Invisible to everybody else except for the people working on the Project. :P

What's there to vote on?

Those of us who work on the Evapedia need to figure out if these terms stay or go.

Also: "Wareware no haha". Haha=Mother. I'm not saying that Adam is female as a gender, but that fact she's called a mother makes her a Mother being.

[Mr. Tines]

@SSD

What is the first rule of Fight Club?

[THE Hal E. Burton 9000]

Can I join, Tines-ojisan?

PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSE???? :)

[BobBQ]

What is the first rule of Fight Club?

Shoot first and don't miss.

[CitizenGeek]

Also: "Wareware no haha". Haha=Mother. I'm not saying that Adam is female as a gender, but that fact she's called a mother makes her a Mother being.

Adam is referred to as "mother" once, but this is just another, more poetic, way of saying "progenitor" (Adam is, indeed, called the progenitor of life for the Angels in the series). The fact not one person on the Evapedia has seen fit to acknowledge this makes me doubt the impartiality of the project (which was in doubt, to begin with).

Can I join, Tines-ojisan?

What's with the Japanese honorifics? :roll:

[TriLink]

Can I join, Tines-ojisan?

What's with the Japanese honorifics? :roll:

It's an Eva Monkey Forum's thing. Just roll with it Geek-kun.

[Sailor Star Dust]

@SSD What is the first rule of Fight Club?

Um, I haven't seen the movie, but I believe it's "Don't talk about Fight Club"?
And I wasn't aware that the rule applies here. ;)



To add to what Trilink said, "Ojisan" (Uncle, not "Grandpa (Ojiisan)", right? ) is Tines' nickname around these parts.


@ Hal: http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=114874#114874


Edit: typo.

[Mr. Tines]

(Uncle, not "grandpa", right? )

Correct.

It's a weeaboo thing.

Fixed.

[V]

There is no Invisible Forum!

I mean it's Invisible to everybody else except for the people working on the Project. :P

There is no Invisible Forum which the grunts cannot see! That is a slanderous and unfounded rumor!

[thewayneiac]

If there is a problem now, it's that we are using these terms without proper explaination. So:

In my view, the best solution for all this is to write an FAQ page for the Evapedia.

1. Q: Why do you call Adam, Lilith and the Evas "she".

A: Blah, blah, blah.........

2. Q: Why do you use "Children" instead of "Child?

A: Blah, blah, blah.........

ect.

We could conclude answer #1 with "...thus we have concluded that they are likely female, and refer to them as such, but you are free to look at this evidence and make up your own minds."

I see no problem with continuing the current practice as long as we explain ourselves and let people know that they are free to disagree.

[Reichu]

I suspect that wouldn't eliminate the sense of "group think", particularly with regard to the remarkably touchy "gender" subject.

Unless you're one of those who agree with the "she" thing or have otherwise gotten accustomed to the convention, there's a high probability you'll interpret the omnipresent pronouns as pushing a particular viewpoint, and doing it on a part of the site that is supposed to be "fact before theory". Accordingly, it damages our overall credibility; it's easy ammunition for controversy that we really don't need.

I'm not entirely sure why the pronouns have the potency they do, but, at this point, I'll happily abandon them in the 'pedia and such to avoid dealing with the same tiresome shitstorm ad infinitum. Endless arguments surrounding the "she" thing can get immortalized in a T&A page, and that'll be that.

In closing, I wouldn't mind if this discussion stopped being a reiteration of a small and quirky issue that's received ludicrously extensive coverage elsewhere and went back to the main point.

[Dr. Nick]

"Children" is a really annoying term. It is Engrish, but not in a usual, flat-out erroneous way; the anomalous form is used for a reason (assuming that explanation wasn't a retcon), but of course, that won't stop it from causing a lolwhat-effect in native speakers of English (something the original writers probably didn't consider much).

ADV did the right thing when they chose a domesticating approach in their translation: subtitles have very short time frames which do not allow lolwhat-words that force the reader to stop and backtrack. The FGP pages, on the other hand, have a different format and serve a completely different textual function and thus allow more foreignizing elements to be used.

I don't have strong feelings about this one way or the other, and my opinions don't carry much weight anyway because I'm not a native English speaker, but I think Wayne's approach is a reasonable compromise: maintain "children", but use it sparingly and with links to an FAQ.

[CitizenGeek]

Unless you're one of those who agree with the "she" thing or have otherwise gotten accustomed to the convention, there's a high probability you'll interpret the omnipresent pronouns as pushing a particular viewpoint, and doing it on a part of the site that is supposed to be "fact before theory". Accordingly, it damages our overall credibility; it's easy ammunition for controversy that we really don't need.

Yes, well said.

It's not that I have a problem with the 'Angels being female' theory itself, I'm actually quite open to discussing and altering my opinion on it - however, pushing it as fact on what is supposed to be an Evangelion resource is not right. It's the principal rather than the specific issue.

In closing, I wouldn't mind if this discussion stopped being a reiteration of a small and quirky issue that's received ludicrously extensive coverage elsewhere and went back to the main point.

So, is something going to be done about the "she" stuff?

I must admit that I like thewayneiac's idea of a FAQ and I completely agree with Dr. Nick on the subject of the "children" issue.

[Reichu]

It's not that I have a problem with the 'Angels being female' theory itself <snip>

It's just the Evas, Lilith, and Adam that are subject to the treatment. Additionally, calling something "she" does not necessarily mean something is female in a biological sense; those who use it on the Evas, etc., do not have a unified position on the matter. It's evident, however, that it can't even be used as an informal convention without seeding "shit clouds" -- which I find disappointing, but oh well.

I've already said at least twice -- earlier in the thread -- that this is bound to change. (Not sure why those posts escaped so much notice considering the amounts of joy they should have inspired, but...) I'll probably end up plowing through the current FGP administrative hangups next week just so I don't have to hear another word about this (except from those unhappy about the change, that is...).


Anything else about pronouns and I'll start neutering people en masse.

[CitizenGeek]

I've already said at least twice -- earlier in the thread -- that this is bound to change. (Not sure why those posts escaped so much notice considering the amounts of joy they should have inspired, but...)

It's probably because you're being so indirect about it - "bound to change" .....

It's just the Evas, Lilith, and Adam that are subject to the treatment.

I look forward to that changing :]

[Sailor Star Dust]

I agree with thewayneiac's point about what we could do with the aforementioned topics.

Back on the actual topic however....

Personally I don't see how "groupthink" IS much of a problem when people are going to think whatever they want to about Eva anyway. As long as we give a NPOV and reasons why with all the various things in the Evapedia, I think what we have is okay.

Either way, since things ARE bound to change with terms/etc on the site, people shouldn't be making a big deal about how things currently are. I think they're forgetting this site is HEAVILY under construction and NOWHERE NEAR the finished product yet. :roll:

(btw, apparently Ornette worked on the Site's Constitution the other day.)

[slothen]

There is no Invisible Forum!

I mean it's Invisible to everybody else except for the people working on the Project. :P

There is no Invisible Forum which the grunts cannot see! That is a slanderous and unfounded rumor!

oh hell. Now I want to work on it.