Rei's soul(s)

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Rei's soul(s)

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Postby Born of Lilith » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:41 am

I've always been of the mind that Rei's soul moved to different cloned bodies as necessary. Rei III seemed to have some recollection of life as Rei II which supports this. But in EoE we see the Star Wars-esque apparitions of Reis I, II and III. So do they have separate souls/minds/sentience or are they one and the same?
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Postby SaltyJoe » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:42 am

The soul has to be the same, simply because there is only one soul that corresponds to the entity known as Ayanami Rei. Ritsuko tells us in Episode 23 that there is only one soul that is being transfered from clone to clone between various versions of Rei.

However, souls are not indivisible (see: Kyoko). They can fracture. A popular theory, which i support, states that between the soul transfers that Rei has gone through, parts of her essence were "left behind". So, though they share the same soul, Rei I,II and III are effectively different beings.

Also, it's Gendo who sees the three Reis in EoE, correct? It might be interesting to look into what they signify to him.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:35 pm

Even if their souls were mixed back together after fracturing, they needn't necessarily perfectly fuse together. Rei's subconscious, remembering her other lives, can manifest them in her psyche just like Shinji confronts his childhood self/Baser Consciousness inside Leliel.
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Postby berto » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:09 am

Rei Ayanami's soul is an artificial one. It is a soul that can be moved from one body to another.

What is strange is that the dummy plug is powered by an artificial imprint of a soul, something that would fool the Eva into beliving that there is one when there is none. Ayanami floats in a large glass tank of LCL to make the dummy plug system work, how does that work, I don't know. What I do know is that the key to the system is the clones that are stored in the tank in that very same room.

I've always assumed that a clone was stored inside the entry plug and connections were shifted from the pilot to the clone. I also thought that the tank Ayanami floats one would imprint her one soul onto the other clones but I got nothing to support this theory. But I do think that this could only be done with Ayanami's soul, that her soul and body might've been engeneered for all the things that she is made to do, the DP system, Instrumentality, piloting.

One thing about the Dummy plug system I've always wonder was whether the dummy plug, having no will of it's own, somehow allowed what ever will the Eva had to be unleashed or if that was just how something without a soul behaved. I'm not just talking about Unit 01 but the mass production Units, too. Actually that's not entirely true, the first time I spoted Kaworu's name on the MP's Entree plugs I actually thought that the reason they smiled was because Kaworu smiled a lot, some kind imprint of the personality of the DP System's subject.
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Postby slothen » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:28 am

View Original Postberto wrote:Rei Ayanami's soul is an artificial one.


The term 'artificial' is said by chibi-rei to Rei in the EoTV ending. I consider this a minor inconsistency, since we know flat out that Rei's soul was not created or engineered, but is actually the soul of Lilith.

Also, we know that the actual clone bodies are not stored within the actual dummy plug units themselves. We know this because when Ritsuko destroys the clones, her remote control thingy starts listing Reis beginning with number 4.
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Postby Aozora » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:33 am

View Original Postslothen wrote:The term 'artificial' is said by chibi-rei to Rei in the EoTV ending. I consider this a minor inconsistency, since we know flat out that Rei's soul was not created or engineered, but is actually the soul of Lilith.

I thought she said Rei's mind/heart was false, not her soul.

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Postby soul.assassin » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:37 am

Let's review the script first:
Rei: Why are all of these me?

Rei: Because others call us Ayanami Rei.

Rei: Why do you have a false mind and a false body?

Rei: Not false, for I am I.

Rei: No. you are a human whose false soul was made by a
man named Ikari Gendou.

You are a false object which is pretending to be a human.
Look, you have a dark, invisible, and unintelligible mind
within you, where the true you exists.

Rei: I am I.
I've become me through the instrumentality of the links
between me and others.

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Postby berto » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:03 pm

View Original Postslothen wrote:The term 'artificial' is said by chibi-rei to Rei in the EoTV ending. I consider this a minor inconsistency, since we know flat out that Rei's soul was not created or engineered, but is actually the soul of Lilith.


So when Ayanami says to Lilith 'I'm home' who answered her 'Welcome Home'?


Thanks SA for for posting the script.

So you see what I'm trying to say? Some way, somehow Gendo and the rest of Nerv found a scientific way to analyze and even replicate a soul. It might've happened when Yui vanished, the data they gathered from the event might've given them a scientific formula or record of what a soul is. Again, just theories, nothing to back them up with.
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Postby Aozora » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:26 pm

You're right. Maybe she means Rei's soul is false in the sense that it's not human, not naturally supposed to belong to Rei.

That translation's pretty rough, is there Japanese script out there?

The script says, "you are a human whose false soul was made by a
man named Ikari Gendou. "

I hear this:
あなたは偽りの魂を碇ゲンドウと言う人間によって作られた人なのよ

Which I understand as, "You are a person made by Ikari Gendou with a false soul." Now I may be over analyzing the line, but this would mean Gendo didn't make Rei's soul. Which is consistent with Rei's soul belonging to Lilith (dark, scary, and not human) and not being artificial.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:46 pm

Or it's just fucking Rei's sense of self-worth being ZERO talking to her, you guys. It's completely not even up for debate that Rei's very real soul is Lilith's, and that she's a real person due to her bonds of people. But Rei herself doesn't seem to acknowledge this herself until the last possible minute and has this whole "I'm a tool/doll/machine/weapon" complex the whole series through.

Also, obviously Rei welcomed herself home. It's not like Lilith spoke outloud. Infact, the "Welcome Home" dialogue uses the same sort of text card as Shinji's self-abrasive thoughts when he has his inner dialogues.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:56 pm

berto wrote:So when Ayanami says to Lilith 'I'm home' who answered her 'Welcome Home'?


There are examples throughout the series when you look at the dialogue, but Rei and Kyoko have both been subjected to soul-splitting and soul-merging.

Lilith welcoming Rei home in M26' either means there's a part of Lilith's soul still within Lilith's body, or Rei's subconscious is answering for her (what the Eva2 game seems to imply, if memory serves me right).

Some way, somehow Gendo and the rest of Nerv found a scientific way to analyze and even replicate a soul. It might've happened when Yui vanished, the data they gathered from the event might've given them a scientific formula or record of what a soul is. Again, just theories, nothing to back them up with.


Regarding Rei's origins, it's assumed something like this happened:

Yui stayed within Eva-01 (who was connected at the time to Lilith's body). At some point or another, Naoko came up with the idea for a salvage operation but when it was implemented, it "failed" in that Yui's body (DNA) was sucked out with Lilith's soul; this was Rei 1. Yui's soul still remained in Eva-01 of course.

Most likely after (but I guess before is possible too?) Rei 1 was killed by Naoko, Rei's body was able to be cloned, but she still has one unique soul, even if it is subject to soul splitting amongst Eva-00 (Rei 1)/Rei 2/Lilith.

That aside, Aura's right on target, I'd say.
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Postby Great Genius Shinji-Sama » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:08 pm

Character design put to the side for a moment; if it's Yui's DNA then why does Rei have blue hair and red eyes, and not Shinji's (not to mention Yui's) brown hair and blue eyes? One theory I can think of is that Gendo possibly gave her contacts and dyed her hair so no one knows its a clone of her, except the people who made her. Or more realistically it was simply mutated somehow, possibly due to Lillith's soul. :yui_grin:
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:34 pm

Rei and Kaworu have pale skin and red eyes because of being SoLs and/or being made of Particle Wave Matter from what I understand.
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Postby slothen » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:37 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Rei and Kaworu have pale skin and red eyes because of being SoLs and/or being made of Particle Wave Matter from what I understand.


beat me to it.
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Postby berto » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:12 pm

Well, I'm not a physicist so would one of you kindly explain the Wave Particle theory and how it applies?
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:31 pm

It's not a theory (although the terminology is fanon), episode 05 flat-out states this:

Episode 05 wrote:Misato (OFF): What the heck is this?

RITSUKO: That's the code number for "cannot be analyzed".

Misato: You mean, you don't know what the heck it is?

RITSUKO: Correct. We do know the Angel is composed of a type of matter characterized by both particulate and wave properties, like light.

Misato: But you've at least found its power source, haven't you?

RITSUKO: Something like that anyway. But we haven't been able to figure out any of its operating principles.

Misato: Well, I guess there's still a whole world of things we don't know about yet.

RITSUKO: The world is filled with mysteries. For example, take a look at this. This is the Angel's inherent wave pattern.

Misato: What? Let me see.

Misato: Could this be...

RITSUKO: Yes. Although they are composed of a different form of matter,
their actual composition, in terms of the arrangement and spacing of the pattern, falls within a 99.89% match of human genes.

Misato: 99.89%?

RITSUKO: It really shows us just how limited our level of understanding is.


This should help for further reading too: http://wiki.evageeks.org/Particle_wave_matter
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Postby The Abhorrent » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:01 pm

View Original Postberto wrote:Well, I'm not a physicist so would one of you kindly explain the Wave Particle theory and how it applies?


Wave-Particle Duality is a (real) property of light, in the sense that it somehow behaves like a particle in regards to certain situations and as a particle in others. I believe it's within the realm of quantum mechanics (which can be plain wierd), and sometimes what is observed can be affected by actually observing it (Hey, that's a wave-like effect! Let's take a closer look..... why is it behaving like a particle now?). Another interesting aspect of this is photons, essentially "light particles" which have zero mass (at rest). Waves also need a medium to move through.... and for some reason light uses itself as a medium (or something like that). Another fun/wierd tie-in could be the equation for converting mass into (pure) energy, E=m*c^2. Essentially, all matter is (a state of) energy. Truth is stranger than fiction.

As for how this applies to Adam & Lilith (and subsequently Kaworu & Rei), it's because they have been referred to as "giants of light". That mostly in regards to their appearance, which are intensely glowing beings. Exactly why this results in Rei & Kaworu both having what is effectively a unique form of albinism is hazy at best.


Back to the main topic.... well, it's been covered.

Rei has Lilith's soul, presumably most of it (if not all). This is mostly explained in supplementary materials rather than the series proper. A fragment of her soul is within Eva-00, though which fragment is debatable. The article on the wiki determines it to be "Rei 1", which refers to the child Rei seen in episode 25 during the analysis of Rei. Whether or not this is the same as Rei I who strangled by Naoko Akagi in episode 21 is uncertain.

As for my current understanding, Rei III's soul (the one who appeared after Rei II's death in episode 23) is the combination of Rei II's soul and Rei 1 from Eva-00. Essentially, Rei III is the "whole" Rei. Taking that into account, the subject of her analysis in episode 25 (trying to come to terms with each of her soul fragments becoming a single entity) seems to make perfect sense.

Anyhow, that's about the extent of my knowledge on the subject. Consulting the wiki on this site is useful, but as with just about everything related to NGE... it's very open to interpretation.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:45 pm

View Original PostThe Abhorrent wrote:Wave-Particle Duality is a (real) property of light, in the sense that it somehow behaves like a particle in regards to certain situations and as a particle in others. I believe it's within the realm of quantum mechanics (which can be plain weird)


Funny enough, quantum physics and mechanics both have a lot to do with Rei and her traveling forwards/backwards in time (book-end Reis, hell-train Rei too I guess) and appearing in multiple places at once (EoE) so Wave-Particle Duality is quite fitting for both Rei and to a lesser extent Kaworu.

I don't have much else to add with the rest of your post, but I think it's spot-on.
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Postby berto » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:06 pm

So, in effect, what your saying is that Rei and Kaworu, and the Angels are made of a form of matter that has similar properties to light? While there is such a thing as Dark matter, which, from what little I know of it,has no relation to this Partical-Wave (Light?) matter.

There are, however more than one luminesent angel, even Kaworu shines, so I'll bite for now.
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Postby Ornette » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:17 pm

Episode 05 wrote:RITSUKO:
Correct. We do know the Angel is composed of a type of matter
characterized by both particulate and wave properties, like light.

Thus the shorthand "Particle-Wave Matter".


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