The Magi, soul divisibility, and Rei

[Zenithfleet]

Sorry if this has been covered before - a search didn't turn up anything.

Is it possible that the 'three aspects' of the Magi - mother, scientist and woman - are a clue to the nature of souls?

We know souls can be divided into portions and presumably later reunified. A portion of Asuka's mother's soul is in Unit 02. And (so it seems) a part of Rei I's soul is in Unit 00.

My proposal is this: Might every soul in NGE be composed of three aspects, similar to those that make up the Magi?

I'll take a wild stab and call them 'family', 'occupation / social role' and 'sexuality', but there are surely better names. Maybe different kinds of love? Family love, love of work, and sexual love? Or you could just call them the 'Balthazar', 'Melchior' and 'Caspar' aspects... did I get those three in the right order?

After all, the portion of Kyoko's soul in Unit 02 - at least at first - is the maternal or 'Balthazar' part. Therefore she can't recognise her daughter.

And... possibly the part of Rei I / Lilith's soul in Unit 00 is the 'Caspar' or sexual/womanly aspect. Her taunting of Naoko implies this. Whether it was childish jealousy or a sign that Rei I was fully 'awake' as Lilith and had an adult's passions is a slightly alarming topic that I think I'll steer well clear of But she was definitely malicious in her taunting of Naoko.

This might explain Unit 00's attacks on Gendo, Rei and (implied) Ritsuko - not because Rei I is angry about her death and being trapped in the Eva, but because she's blindly lashing out in a fit of jealousy. Like the old Naoko theory, except with less Naoko. ;)

Meanwhile Rei II seems to be entirely sexless (from which we can infer an absence of Caspar) but is clearly dedicated to the 'social role' of Eva pilot (Melchior, check) and gets all blushy when people talk about her motherly potential (Balthazar, check). Rei III then reunites all three aspects (as well as realising who she really is) and is able to reject Gendo with her newfound awareness.


NB: I'm not trying to suggest the Magi themselves contain portions of Naoko's soul. I'm just wondering if the 'three aspects' of the Magi could be thought of as a hint to the viewer that personalities can be split into bits - and within the show as an attempt by Gehirn to mimic, digitally, the way that souls work. Just as dummy plugs mimic a whole consciousness.

Thoughtses?

[EvangelionFan]

It isn't to do with souls, it is - I believe - to do with the idea that a person carries several personalities which are in conflict. Since Magi is the point of concern here, I'll start with it.

In Episode 13, Ritsuko explains to Misato that Magi is iinscribed with the personality of a person. Exactly how this is performed isn't fully explained, except that it involves transcibing an individuals' personality to an organic computer and then making it become self-aware.
At this point, after being asked by Misato, Ritsuko admits that her mothers' personality was transcribed to the Magi. After cuttings open the plate protecting Casper, Ritsuko adds: "This is my mothers' brain, so to speak".
Skipping ahead to the end of Episode 13, Ritsuko says*:
"The night before my mother died, she said that Magi has three of her characteristics. A scientist, a mother and a woman. Those three are in constant conflict within Magi. She purposefully left human dilemma. Actually the program was modified a little..."

*Since this line currently isn't on the Evawiki, I copied the line as it appears in the fansub I have

So, from these sections of Episode 13 we're able to summarise that:
- Each Magi Supercomputer is inscribed with an individuals' personality - or an aspect of their personality - before being evolved to a self-aware state.
- The three Magi in use by Nerv are inscribed with different aspects of Naoko Akagi's personality - Melchior is Dr. Naoko Akagi as a scientist; Balthasar is Dr. Naoko Akagi as a mother; Casper is Dr. Naoko Akagi as a woman.
- As Ritsuko states, the Magi are still alterable by programming. As a point of interest: Iruel is able to systematically hack the Magi, and it is only through Nerv's actions that the Angels' advance is halted and reversed.

I think the Angle I'd take with the Magi is that they are ultimately technological tools used by humans. Since they are without souls, one could almost say they're like the soulless Rei clones that operate the dummy plugs.


Now, about your other points:
- Rei I being the 'woman' aspect is an interesting speculation. If womans' souls are split in the nature which you suggest, it would follow that Rei II retains the motherly (the scene from episode 15 inwhich Shinji likens her to a mother) and scientist/professional (the scene from episode 9 inwhich she's reading a science book) aspects of her personality. Additionally, Rei III's rebellion of Gendo seems to suggest that she regained the woman side after unifying with Unit 00.
- Kyoko is also interesting. I suspect the scientist aspect was the part which wasn't absorbed by Unit 02. A point of contest is that there are theories that speculate Kyoko's remains were abosrbed into Unit 02 after her suicide, so her entire soul would be in Unit 02 - this theory implies that Kyoko's soul isn't reunified after this, explaining some of the interesting mindtrip(s) Asuka has inside Unit 02. If that theory is true I'd speculate from your ideas that Kyoko's motherly, womanly and professional personality aspects are all in conflict inside Unit 02, unlike Yui in Unit 01 who is one with herself.

So, my final thoughts are: although Magi is solely a transcibing of Naoko's mind; it's interesting that the soul divisibility of Lillith and Kyoko would follow a similar personality split. I look forward to hearing some debate on this.

[SaltyJoe]

I think it's just a case of Naoko's brain being partitioned in a particular way in the Magi system (a sort of "Virgin, Mother, Crone" dynamic) rather than everybody's souls being naturally partitioned like that. Conflicting personalities within one person is a huge theme in NGE, of course.

I think the Angle I'd take with the Magi is that they are ultimately technological tools used by humans. Since they are without souls, one could almost say they're like the soulless Rei clones that operate the dummy plugs.

NGE blurs the line between mind and soul, and the three parts of the Magi form a working mind. I don't think it can be categorically said that "it's" soulless.

[thewayneiac]

This is an interesting idea, but ultimately it doesn't seem to work. There's nothing in the show that says that Naoko's soul is in the Magi. The technology that transfered Naoko's personality into the Magi is likely the same as the process by which Rei's personality (but not her soul) was transfered into the Dummy System. In other words, it's just a copy. The process for transfering the actual soul would be a seperate technology.

[Zoop]

NB: I'm not trying to suggest the Magi themselves contain portions of Naoko's soul. I'm just wondering if the 'three aspects' of the Magi could be thought of as a hint to the viewer that personalities can be split into bits - and within the show as an attempt by Gehirn to mimic, digitally, the way that souls work. Just as dummy plugs mimic a whole consciousness.

He's just implying that the technology used to make the 3 characteristics of Naoko for the Magi system is based on the same theory on how a soul is dividable. It does not imply that the Magi actually contains a (or Naoko's) soul.

NGE blurs the line between mind and soul, and the three parts of the Magi form a working mind. I don't think it can be categorically said that "it's" soulless.

I'll have to disagree on that. I believe NGE quite makes clear what has a soul and what not. For example: Lillith in the basement. Rei has (part of) Lillith's soul, Lillith's body is soulless. Another example: the Dummies in the Reiquarium. Fully functional bodies, but no soul.

I must say that I find the theory quite plausible, altough there isn't much evidence support it.

[AuraTwilight]

It's actually a pretty nice theory. I like it. The problem is, I'm not sure if it's fully applicable. I mean, for example, does this translate to males? The "Father" is an entirely different archetypal figure than the "Mother."

Perhaps a better way to put this theory isn't that there's some objective three-way division of the soul, but that the soul facets itself as a diamond where every face on the gem is a face the person wears? One person can be "Woman/Scientist/Mother", Rei is "Lilith/Rei/Pilot of Unit 00", Shinji is "Just a Child/Student/Pilot of Unit 01", etc. There's no limit to meet three faces or restrict yourself to three, though. There could be people with two faces, some with four or higher, etcetera. When a soul is divided, though, atleast one of these "faces" is lost, which is what causes the mental instability. How can you take care of yourself, mentally, if you lack a core part of your personality?

[Zoop]

It's actually a pretty nice theory. I like it. The problem is, I'm not sure if it's fully applicable. I mean, for example, does this translate to males? The "Father" is an entirely different archetypal figure than the "Mother."

Come to think of it, the only "split souls" supposedly shown in the series, are in fact female?

[kylethestrange]

I always figured Mother/Woman/Scientist was Ego/Id/Superego respectively. Or some variation of that.

I assumed woman, being the part that was in love/lust with Gendo was the Id, since I assume that she knew he was just using her and he was still in love with Yui, but didn't want to admit it, until Rei I brought it up. Also isn't that the part that betrayed Ritsuko? Now she should want to protect her young, but the Id looks out for number 1 and your prime desires, so Gendo may have been it.

Scientist is Superego for obvious reasons.

Ego i assume is mother, since women are (apparently/supposed to be) maternal.

With Rei, the part of her soul in 00 is the Id (it freaks out more than once). Then ego is Rei II because it is maternal and sacrifices herself (to save Shinji I think).

But what of Thanatos, Eros, Libido? Thanatos according to some wants you to return to an earlier inorganic state (instrumentality turns everyone into LCL, coincidence?)

[Eva Yojimbo]

I always figured Mother/Woman/Scientist was Ego/Id/Superego respectively. Or some variation of that.

I assumed woman, being the part that was in love/lust with Gendo was the Id

Actually, I think woman and mother would be reversed. Throughout the series, motherhood is expressed as a supremely primal thing that doesn't even require a consciousness to act (the Eva's suppression and berserk mode). Woman would seem to be more of the idea of self and identity, while mother is something ancient (not that woman isn't ancient too, but their concept/awareness of it is probably more recent).

[Monk Ed]

Actually, I think woman and mother would be reversed. Throughout the series, motherhood is expressed as a supremely primal thing that doesn't even require a consciousness to act (the Eva's suppression and berserk mode). Woman would seem to be more of the idea of self and identity, while mother is something ancient (not that woman isn't ancient too, but their concept/awareness of it is probably more recent).

I think at this point the analogy simply breaks down, because there are id/ego/etc elements to all three of those facets. Even the scientist has an id component: It's hard to be a good scientist without drive, and furthermore, "gut hunches" are extremely important to one. And neither id nor ego are supremely represented by woman or mother.

[Zenithfleet]

Thanks for the responses everyone

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to suggest that the Magi actually had parts of Naoko's soul in them. I was approaching the idea from a writer's perspective, thinking about how Anno and co might try to hint obliquely at the way souls work without actually telling us - and without even letting us know they're trying to tell us something. This happens a lot in NGE. Clues aren't always signposted as clues. They don't always stand up and say "I'm a hint, dammit! Pay attention to me and speculate!" Sometimes they look perfectly innocent and irrelevant. Though whether this is the case for the Magi, or whether I'm just venturing into fanwank territory, I have no idea.

More longwinded example in the spoiler box to avert Wall of Text (no actual spoilers).

SPOILER: Show

Say you write a story about rich, comfortable, safe people throwing tantrums over insignificant things in life such as being serving an extra-small helping of fries. You might add a scene in which a character watches a TV special on allergies and how a person living in a hyper-sanitised environment might suffer allergies to harmless things because their immune system has no proper threats to fight against.

You're not saying that people get angry about small servings because they're allergic to them. You're just hinting to the reader, without telling them outright, that there's a parallel - rich safe comfortable people might get angry at little things because they don't have any big things like violent crime to worry about.

Now a hack writer might bludgeon the reader over the head with the metaphor, for fear they'll miss the point. They might have a character observe a case of road rage and think to themselves "hmm, it's like his social immune system is overcompensating". A better writer might just signpost it - the character might say "That guy should star in a TV special" - and leave it to the reader to make the inference. But a really good writer (or a frustratingly obscure one, depending on your preference) would just give you the TV scene and never mention it again, even obliquely. The viewer is completely free to miss the hint altogether, because there's no indication it is a hint. To take a random example from sf literature, Gene Wolfe does this all the time. Book of the New Sun, oh boy...

kylethestrange: I think your Freudian terms are probably a lot more appropriate than my rough guesses, considering that NGE uses many other Freudian concepts and terms...

AuraTwilight: Yes, the male/female thing is a definite flaw in the theory. Still, we could probably duck the question because, as Zoop says, only female souls are split in the series.

Also, I agree that your 'many facets' idea works just fine (and would be more realistic in the real world than the idea that there are only and always three aspects to a person). But... isn't that what we'd conjecture anyway, based on what happens to Kyoko?

Put another way, if the Magi really are a clue to how soul-portioning works (and I know that's a big 'if'), why stop halfway? Why not assume that everything about their divided personalities is a clue? If we're going to accept that they indicate defined 'faces' or 'facets', why not also assume that there are always only three? The 'three aspects' is underlined a fair few times, after all.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that either there's no evidence for the theory at all... or... there's a massive amount of evidence (practically the whole Iruel episode plus Naoko's repetition of the three aspects thing in episode 21), but which is never spelled out or even marked as a clue, making it easy to miss.

(Even if I'm right - and frankly how would I ever know? - I'm not trying to boast. I'd never in a million years have deduced the "Rei I is in Unit 00" thing, for example. Or "Rei II is made of particle/wave matter" based on the scans in Episodes 4 and 5. Those seem far more oblique and well-hidden to me than 'the Magi demonstrate how soul-partitioning works'.)

Rei I being the 'woman' aspect is an interesting speculation.

Sorry, I should've been clearer here too. I think Rei I had all three aspects. (In other words, she's the complete soul of Lilith, trapped in a child's body.) But when she dies, only the 'woman' portion is placed in Unit 00. Rei II gets the other two 'portions'. And Rei III is made whole again - but, oddly, seems to be able to remember her past existences (because she's Lilith's soul?), and even has conversations with the fragment that was formerly in Unit 00 as though it's a separate person.

[AuraTwilight]

Put another way, if the Magi really are a clue to how soul-portioning works (and I know that's a big 'if'), why stop halfway? Why not assume that everything about their divided personalities is a clue? If we're going to accept that they indicate defined 'faces' or 'facets', why not also assume that there are always only three? The 'three aspects' is underlined a fair few times, after all.

Because humans aren't that simple and it's tremendously ignorant and naive to think so?

[kylethestrange]

Actually, I think woman and mother would be reversed.

It seems so. In psychology class we learned that motherhood is not necessarily innate. However in the NGE universe maybe it is.

I think at this point the analogy simply breaks down, because there are id/ego/etc elements to all three of those facets. Even the scientist has an id component: It's hard to be a good scientist without drive, and furthermore, "gut hunches" are extremely important to one. And neither id nor ego are supremely represented by woman or mother.

Well I know one of the principles of Yin and Yang is that everything is both yin and yang, they cannot exist separate of each other, one may be more yin than yang or vice versa. So this could be true with the psychological aspect.

[Zenithfleet]

Argh, real life took hold and I had to run away from this thread for a bit.

Because humans aren't that simple and it's tremendously ignorant and naive to think so?

Er, I didn't mean in real life, I meant in the universe of the show. A simplification, so that NGE could concentrate on certain issues without trying to encompass every aspect of a real person.

Anyway - following on from what kylethestrange said - isn't this kind of sweeping simplification just what Freud tried to do with his id, ego, superego concept? The psyche divided into three?

Since NGE uses other Freudian concepts like destrudo as physical forces, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch for the show to loosely base its theory of the psyche on Freud's ideas. So in the NGE universe, the id/ego/superego could be the three actual, tangible, essential components of a soul.

I doubt Anno believes that people's minds really work in such a simplified way. At least, I hope he doesn't. But it may have been a useful model for his purposes.

[AuraTwilight]

Considering the immense complexity of his characters, I think it's an incredible disservice to assume even for a moment that the characters are less complex in their universe than in ours.