While surfing youtube the other day, I came across a reviewer named "JesuOtaku," who has proven to be a very fair and just reviewer. I found her Evangelion review, and although it's not a perfect score or anything, all the faults with it are very justified and fair. All of her points are well backed up and, although subjective (after all, Evangelion can't be reviewed objectively), she admits this and restates many times that it's her opinion. I posted this here to show that people dont have to just hate or love Eva, and that there are fair reviews of it. Feel free to discuss the points here.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUqdYo-2iU8
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xrq8FUFrFk
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xrq8FUFrFk
A very fair review of Evangelion I found
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A very fair review of Evangelion I found
"Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with his experience."
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This is exactly what I needed to see. Thank you for pointing it out to me.
"Now, from Nature we obtain abundant information about ourselves, and precious little about others. About the woman you clasp in your arms, can you say with certainty that she does not feign pleasure? About the woman you mistreat, are you quite sure that from abuse she does not derive some obscure and lascivious satisfaction? Let us confine ourselves to simple evidence: through thoughtfulness, gentleness, concern for the feelings of others we saddle our own pleasure with restrictions, and make this sacrifice to obtain a doubtful result." -The Divine Marquis
"I agree Hans, but we have talked about those anal fisting analogies." -Werner Herzog
"I agree Hans, but we have talked about those anal fisting analogies." -Werner Herzog
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Ooh, thank you for this! Although I don't entirely agree with everything she says, she backs up everything she says (which is refreshing) and is pretty entertaining. I think I'll be going through all of her reviews now, haha.
I frequently herp where I should derp. Also music.
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There are certain things about it that I disagree with but she did hit the nail on the head trought out. It is, however, not all is the way she portraits it. Eva has a way of bringging out the worst in people and therefore it get a lot of hate for many diferent reasons, while to her admition she doesn't hate it and it's just the negative she focuses onand points out the 'indescretions' so as they don't go unchecked.
While I could argue everything she said, staement by statement, I rather leave it alone by simply saying that, while been the most articulate and well thought out 'negative' review of the series with actual points, examples and complete sentenses, I don't agree.
While I could argue everything she said, staement by statement, I rather leave it alone by simply saying that, while been the most articulate and well thought out 'negative' review of the series with actual points, examples and complete sentenses, I don't agree.
Not who you think I am.
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- Eva Yojimbo
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Ok, I just watched all three parts, doing so very carefully with an intention of being open minded and I was genuinely surprised: I must say that I agree this is probably the fairest, most eloquent negative review of NGE I've ever seen, heard, read, etc. and what's amazing is that she pulls this off while still being funny, charming, likable etc. IOW, she's someone I could see having a lively debate with over tea and crumpets and then having a good laugh afterwards. It's so refreshing to find someone who's willing to put some thoughts into their negative opinions and willing to back them up with solid arguments and reasons for why they hold them.
Of course, anyone who knows me knows that I simply can't agree with most of her points, but I think that's irrelevant to the larger (and most shocking, to me) point: This is finally a negative opinion of NGE that I'm willing to admit has some value and merit. It features the best aspects of criticism without falling into its easy fallacies and pitfalls.
IOW, I think I'm in love...
OK, no, but seriously... I think her three biggest complaints can be boiled down to these points:
1. A general disagreement with the philosophy as its portrayed
2. A dislike of Shinji being a passive as opposed to proactive character
3. A dislike for the plot/writing contrivances which she feels are preachy, manipulative, pretentious, etc. as opposed to avant garde.
In a sense, it's hard to argue with these assessments since if you naturally have a preference for the opposite of what a certain work is going for, then you're bound to dislike it. But is that the work's fault? It's not as if every postmodern existentialist would find every work that portrays postmodern existentialism equally valuable and an equally valid representation of that philosophy. But if you have a fundamental disagreement with the philosophy itself, then can you appreciate it when it's portrayed well in art? I guess, theoretically you could, but whether she can or not, I don't know.
As for Shinji, I think it's the same thing that's above: Shinji is obviously meant to stand in stark contrast to traditional proactive protagonists and especially hero archetypes who face a kind of "hero's journey". But I think one thing she fails to mention is whether or not Shinji's "naval gazing" is justified, and given what we know about him, his history, and the current situations he's facing, I've always argued it very much is. So the question shouldn't be "is it a positive thing that Shinji is so passive/inactive" but "does it makes sense that he is?" I don't think she really addresses this, and seems more on the "he's passive/inactive so he's bad"... Ok, I'm committing a bit of a strawman here, because I know her point is better fleshed out in that, but one thing she argues about such a hero eventually facing/coming to grips with reality is a bit out of place with Shinji because the entire series is a build-up to the place where he can do that very thing. I hate armchair psychology that tries to diagnose someone merely based on their opinions, but she doesn't strike me as being someone who's been in a similar position as Shinji and others here who connect so strongly with him (and the other characters).
As for the "bad writing", I think this is the weakest link in her argument since if we're going to attack fiction that interrupts a narrative for overt philosophizing and talk then she's also going to have to take on Hamlet, War & Peace, Goethe's Faust, etc. These are all works that do just that, and are considered some of the finest writing in the Western world. So what NGE is doing is hardly avant garde or new in that respect, it's just so completely alien in an anime context, or indeed, the context of modern popular storytelling. As ran1 and I have both argued, NGE has some definite and interesting links to great fiction of a somewhat-distant past more so than contemporary writing.
OK, I think that about does it for my critique of her critique. I'm just glad I can finally stop saying that I've never read/heard/etc. any intelligent, negative criticisms of NGE. So a
to whomever she is.
On a side note: Does anyone here feel like trying to get in contact with her and inviting her to read this thread? Tell her we promise not to bite...
Of course, anyone who knows me knows that I simply can't agree with most of her points, but I think that's irrelevant to the larger (and most shocking, to me) point: This is finally a negative opinion of NGE that I'm willing to admit has some value and merit. It features the best aspects of criticism without falling into its easy fallacies and pitfalls.
IOW, I think I'm in love...
OK, no, but seriously... I think her three biggest complaints can be boiled down to these points:
1. A general disagreement with the philosophy as its portrayed
2. A dislike of Shinji being a passive as opposed to proactive character
3. A dislike for the plot/writing contrivances which she feels are preachy, manipulative, pretentious, etc. as opposed to avant garde.
In a sense, it's hard to argue with these assessments since if you naturally have a preference for the opposite of what a certain work is going for, then you're bound to dislike it. But is that the work's fault? It's not as if every postmodern existentialist would find every work that portrays postmodern existentialism equally valuable and an equally valid representation of that philosophy. But if you have a fundamental disagreement with the philosophy itself, then can you appreciate it when it's portrayed well in art? I guess, theoretically you could, but whether she can or not, I don't know.
As for Shinji, I think it's the same thing that's above: Shinji is obviously meant to stand in stark contrast to traditional proactive protagonists and especially hero archetypes who face a kind of "hero's journey". But I think one thing she fails to mention is whether or not Shinji's "naval gazing" is justified, and given what we know about him, his history, and the current situations he's facing, I've always argued it very much is. So the question shouldn't be "is it a positive thing that Shinji is so passive/inactive" but "does it makes sense that he is?" I don't think she really addresses this, and seems more on the "he's passive/inactive so he's bad"... Ok, I'm committing a bit of a strawman here, because I know her point is better fleshed out in that, but one thing she argues about such a hero eventually facing/coming to grips with reality is a bit out of place with Shinji because the entire series is a build-up to the place where he can do that very thing. I hate armchair psychology that tries to diagnose someone merely based on their opinions, but she doesn't strike me as being someone who's been in a similar position as Shinji and others here who connect so strongly with him (and the other characters).
As for the "bad writing", I think this is the weakest link in her argument since if we're going to attack fiction that interrupts a narrative for overt philosophizing and talk then she's also going to have to take on Hamlet, War & Peace, Goethe's Faust, etc. These are all works that do just that, and are considered some of the finest writing in the Western world. So what NGE is doing is hardly avant garde or new in that respect, it's just so completely alien in an anime context, or indeed, the context of modern popular storytelling. As ran1 and I have both argued, NGE has some definite and interesting links to great fiction of a somewhat-distant past more so than contemporary writing.
OK, I think that about does it for my critique of her critique. I'm just glad I can finally stop saying that I've never read/heard/etc. any intelligent, negative criticisms of NGE. So a
to whomever she is.On a side note: Does anyone here feel like trying to get in contact with her and inviting her to read this thread? Tell her we promise not to bite...
Last edited by Eva Yojimbo on Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
Yojimbo, I'm surprised at you! I thought you'd be the last person to accept this, I'm proud, lol. But really, she is one of the best reviewers I've seen, and has won me as a fan. You should look into her other reviews. (her Cowboy Bebop one is also very good)
EDIT: I'm sure she'd find that very flattering, I'll try if you want.
EDIT: I'm sure she'd find that very flattering, I'll try if you want.
"Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with his experience."
- Eva Yojimbo
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I'm surprised at myself! Does this mean I'm going to have to give up the "Yojimbo" part of my moniker?BeoX2 wrote:Yojimbo, I'm surprised at you! I thought you'd be the last person to accept this, I'm proud, lol.
Go ahead. I'd really like it if she'd respond.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
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Having lurked around here for a long time, I think I can safely say that when Jimbo is impressed by an analysis of NGE's flaws, everyone should be. 
And it seems I'm in danger of outdoing his reputation with another wall of text. I did try to keep it short... honest guv!
Jimbo, you don't know me from Adam, so I hope the above comes across as good-natured. Seriously, I always look forward to reading your thoughtful posts. ;)
For those who'd prefer to skip the
, I really liked the review - and damn it was funny 
Good to see the dub getting some attention and credit too (but of course I'm biased - see the sig), along with honest observation of its flaws.
Right, here we go...
Negative review? What negative review? I don't really see where people are coming from with this comment. JesuOkatu gives it three out of four stars, after all. Plus, the review is three times the length of her standard ones, which just goes to show that even NGE's flaws are interesting enough to support in-depth and interesting critique. Watch her Hellsing review if you want to see her give something an actual thrashing.
Existentialism: I know so little about this that I can't say whether her take on it was accurate. I thought it was pretty clear that she disagreed with the philosophy as a whole, so naturally she objected to seeing it portrayed as 'the answer' in NGE's conclusion.
Asuka: I think the only thing I really disagreed with was her complaint about Asuka's treatment in EoE. I always found that profoundly satisfying. Far better than EoTV's "let's use her as Emotionally Mangled Exhibit B and then forget about her in favour of Shinji's Complimentary Complement" approach. (But then again, I've always thought it was the real Asuka during EoE Instrumentality, not merely the version inside Shinji's head as she claims.)
Show, Don't Tell: Okay, here comes the 'wall of text' part. Normally I would agree - I'm an aspiring writer, so I appreciate the importance of "show, don't tell". But EoTV's "the hell with it, just tell them everything" approach is a special case for me. Cue wibbly flashback dissolve...
Before NGE, I was into straightforward action adventure. I didn't much care if characters were made of the finest quality waxed cardboard. I thought all that character stuff was deadly dull, and could probably lead to romance
if not kept strictly under quarantine.
Then Evangelion stomped onto Aussie TV, with its awesome action but also relentless focus on character. The first half of the series does "show don't tell" in spades - especially the Introduction Arc. But it wasn't until Leliel, when NGE basically turns to face the viewer and says "right, pay attention, here's what makes Shinji tick", that I actually got it. The show picked me up by the lapels, slapped me across the face and bellowed "LASERS AREN'T EVERYTHING YOU TWIT! CHARACTER MATTERS!"
And watching EoTV was rather as though Anno had suddenly decided to show me all the character profiles in his writer's notebook. As though a stage magician interrupted his own act and instead took me backstage to reveal all the inner workings. Sure, I didn't get to see the glorious finale... but I learned a heck of a lot.
NGE revealed to me that people have an inner life that doesn't necessarily correspond to what's on the surface, and yet drives every aspect of their behaviour. And that exploring this can be fascinating. It's a bit worrying that it took watching a TV show at fifteen to teach me this, but there you go.
And I'll bet that if the show hadn't grown impatient with all the subtler "show don't tell" of the first half and just gone right for the jugular with Leliel and beyond, it would have passed right over my thick head.
I'm sure I read an interview with the creators that suggested something like this - that the first "hell train" sequence was an attempt to be so blunt that the most blissfully oblivious otaku couldn't miss it. (Or am I just making stuff up now?) If true, it suggests they they took this approach precisely because they didn't think "show, don't tell" was working. Given that their approach to the rest of the show's mysteries could fairly be described as "don't show and don't tell either"--and damn do they make it work--I find it hard to believe they would hit us over the head with EoTV's warts-n-all character portraits simply due to laziness or inept writing.
Concluding thoughts with a smattering of subjectivity: I think that JesuOkatu gives us the well-articulated and thoughtful viewpoint of someone viewing NGE from the outside. Someone who (happily) doesn't share the emotional and mental troubles of the cast. Someone who can look at NGE in the same way as, say, I do at Bebop - as great but imperfect entertainment, pure and simple.
But judging by many posts I've read on these forums, for a certain subset of the audience NGE did more than that. It connected. It took 'joy of anime' tropes (to shamelessly steal a phrase from an old essay) and then twisted like a snake to bite some of us in the heart. Though strangely enough, it didn't do that for me. Not for many years. But that's another story and it's even more long-winded, believe me.
EoTV's message, and that of the whole series, is hugely significant precisely because (here comes the deeply personal part) it insists that you can change your worldview and therefore your reality. It says, among other things, that the despair might be all in your head. That the world isn't necessarily the hopeless grey void you're convinced it is. That you actually might not be utterly worthless and people might genuinely not hate you. That it could be a trick of your own brain. (Of course, you should then try to work out what the real truth is, rather than just make up a new lie. I'm completely behind JesuOkatu on that. But just taking that first step is huge. Just realising that the first step exists is huge.)
And it's OK that Shinji never finds out the least thing about what's really going on. That's a subversion in itself. And anyway, we have Misato for that.
TL
R version: Great review, and if you're reading this JesuOkatu, give us a Vision of Escaflowne treatment someday please!
And it seems I'm in danger of outdoing his reputation with another wall of text. I did try to keep it short... honest guv!Jimbo, you don't know me from Adam, so I hope the above comes across as good-natured. Seriously, I always look forward to reading your thoughtful posts. ;)
For those who'd prefer to skip the
, I really liked the review - and damn it was funny Good to see the dub getting some attention and credit too (but of course I'm biased - see the sig), along with honest observation of its flaws. Right, here we go...
Negative review? What negative review? I don't really see where people are coming from with this comment. JesuOkatu gives it three out of four stars, after all. Plus, the review is three times the length of her standard ones, which just goes to show that even NGE's flaws are interesting enough to support in-depth and interesting critique. Watch her Hellsing review if you want to see her give something an actual thrashing.
Existentialism: I know so little about this that I can't say whether her take on it was accurate. I thought it was pretty clear that she disagreed with the philosophy as a whole, so naturally she objected to seeing it portrayed as 'the answer' in NGE's conclusion.
Asuka: I think the only thing I really disagreed with was her complaint about Asuka's treatment in EoE. I always found that profoundly satisfying. Far better than EoTV's "let's use her as Emotionally Mangled Exhibit B and then forget about her in favour of Shinji's Complimentary Complement" approach. (But then again, I've always thought it was the real Asuka during EoE Instrumentality, not merely the version inside Shinji's head as she claims.)
Show, Don't Tell: Okay, here comes the 'wall of text' part. Normally I would agree - I'm an aspiring writer, so I appreciate the importance of "show, don't tell". But EoTV's "the hell with it, just tell them everything" approach is a special case for me. Cue wibbly flashback dissolve...
Before NGE, I was into straightforward action adventure. I didn't much care if characters were made of the finest quality waxed cardboard. I thought all that character stuff was deadly dull, and could probably lead to romance
if not kept strictly under quarantine.Then Evangelion stomped onto Aussie TV, with its awesome action but also relentless focus on character. The first half of the series does "show don't tell" in spades - especially the Introduction Arc. But it wasn't until Leliel, when NGE basically turns to face the viewer and says "right, pay attention, here's what makes Shinji tick", that I actually got it. The show picked me up by the lapels, slapped me across the face and bellowed "LASERS AREN'T EVERYTHING YOU TWIT! CHARACTER MATTERS!"
And watching EoTV was rather as though Anno had suddenly decided to show me all the character profiles in his writer's notebook. As though a stage magician interrupted his own act and instead took me backstage to reveal all the inner workings. Sure, I didn't get to see the glorious finale... but I learned a heck of a lot.
NGE revealed to me that people have an inner life that doesn't necessarily correspond to what's on the surface, and yet drives every aspect of their behaviour. And that exploring this can be fascinating. It's a bit worrying that it took watching a TV show at fifteen to teach me this, but there you go.
And I'll bet that if the show hadn't grown impatient with all the subtler "show don't tell" of the first half and just gone right for the jugular with Leliel and beyond, it would have passed right over my thick head.
I'm sure I read an interview with the creators that suggested something like this - that the first "hell train" sequence was an attempt to be so blunt that the most blissfully oblivious otaku couldn't miss it. (Or am I just making stuff up now?) If true, it suggests they they took this approach precisely because they didn't think "show, don't tell" was working. Given that their approach to the rest of the show's mysteries could fairly be described as "don't show and don't tell either"--and damn do they make it work--I find it hard to believe they would hit us over the head with EoTV's warts-n-all character portraits simply due to laziness or inept writing.
Concluding thoughts with a smattering of subjectivity: I think that JesuOkatu gives us the well-articulated and thoughtful viewpoint of someone viewing NGE from the outside. Someone who (happily) doesn't share the emotional and mental troubles of the cast. Someone who can look at NGE in the same way as, say, I do at Bebop - as great but imperfect entertainment, pure and simple.
But judging by many posts I've read on these forums, for a certain subset of the audience NGE did more than that. It connected. It took 'joy of anime' tropes (to shamelessly steal a phrase from an old essay) and then twisted like a snake to bite some of us in the heart. Though strangely enough, it didn't do that for me. Not for many years. But that's another story and it's even more long-winded, believe me.
EvaYojimbo wrote:I hate armchair psychology that tries to diagnose someone merely based on their opinions, but she doesn't strike me as being someone who's been in a similar position as Shinji and others here who connect so strongly with him (and the other characters).
EoTV's message, and that of the whole series, is hugely significant precisely because (here comes the deeply personal part) it insists that you can change your worldview and therefore your reality. It says, among other things, that the despair might be all in your head. That the world isn't necessarily the hopeless grey void you're convinced it is. That you actually might not be utterly worthless and people might genuinely not hate you. That it could be a trick of your own brain. (Of course, you should then try to work out what the real truth is, rather than just make up a new lie. I'm completely behind JesuOkatu on that. But just taking that first step is huge. Just realising that the first step exists is huge.) And it's OK that Shinji never finds out the least thing about what's really going on. That's a subversion in itself. And anyway, we have Misato for that.
TL
R version: Great review, and if you're reading this JesuOkatu, give us a Vision of Escaflowne treatment someday please! Proud fan of the ADV TV dub.
And the on-air episodes.
And Magma Diver.
Sorry.
And the on-air episodes.
And Magma Diver.
Sorry.
Skimmed through the review and wasn't terribly impressed. "Postmodern existentialism?" Yeeaaah...I don't think she knows what she's talking about.
She doesn't say anything that hasn't been said on egf millions of times. I'm not sure why it's more convincing to you guys when presented in video form. :/
She doesn't say anything that hasn't been said on egf millions of times. I'm not sure why it's more convincing to you guys when presented in video form. :/
He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.
Life is a continuous nut-kicking contest where your turn comes last if ever. -majlund
Proud supporter of Shinji x Sachiel
Doesn't help that she labeled existentialism as "a branch" of atheism, either.
in general I do agree with her on the fact that NGE's philosophic aspects are a mess, but then again, I don't let that hinder my enjoyment of the work because I really don't care about that aspect of NGE. When I want philosophy, I read it.
Also looks like she's not into the ending concurrency idea, but that's still a pretty controversial thing on this board, so there's really no fault there. It's just that even rough concurrency explains away the unrealistic nature of Shinji's epiphany in EoTV by smashing it against the final scene of EoE.
She's absolutely correct about the use of still or near-still frames. 'Artistic' or not, that did and still does annoy me, the ep24 one especially. It lingered so long I was starting to wonder if he'd fallen asleep. If the point was to time the battle to the song then the 01 vs. 02 fight should have been fleshed out instead.
The rest of her complaints miss the mark though. Shinji is a giant whiner, yeah, but he DOES go to others for help only to be told he's stupid for even asking the questions. If anything the problem is that he keeps trying to outsource his will rather than determining things for himself (incidentally Gendo's one bit of fatherly advice), so her suggestion that he ask others "because he's the one confused" is just making things worse.
As far as the existentialism and talking heads routine... once instrumentality starts the fluidity of perception becomes the only underlying law of existence, and thus explaining it to Shinji isn't therapy so much as an operating manual for this new reality. They're reduced to explaining things with words (actually more like shared thoughts) because they don't physically exist in Shinji's world. What sort of narrative can you offer when everyone is in direct mental contact with everyone else and physical bodies don't exist? No secrets, no action, no physical jeapordy... all that's left to create any sort of drama around is the difference of opinions and the exploration of emotions, which is exactly what we get.
The rest of her complaints miss the mark though. Shinji is a giant whiner, yeah, but he DOES go to others for help only to be told he's stupid for even asking the questions. If anything the problem is that he keeps trying to outsource his will rather than determining things for himself (incidentally Gendo's one bit of fatherly advice), so her suggestion that he ask others "because he's the one confused" is just making things worse.
As far as the existentialism and talking heads routine... once instrumentality starts the fluidity of perception becomes the only underlying law of existence, and thus explaining it to Shinji isn't therapy so much as an operating manual for this new reality. They're reduced to explaining things with words (actually more like shared thoughts) because they don't physically exist in Shinji's world. What sort of narrative can you offer when everyone is in direct mental contact with everyone else and physical bodies don't exist? No secrets, no action, no physical jeapordy... all that's left to create any sort of drama around is the difference of opinions and the exploration of emotions, which is exactly what we get.
Last edited by NemZ on Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno
Historically, it might not be, but its ideas certainly are atheist. Look in yourself for answers, not to anyone else or any god.
"Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with his experience."
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Jimbo just wants to bone her.
Awesomely Shitty
-"That purace has more badassu maddafaakas zan supermax spaceland."
-On EMF, as a thread becomes longer, the likelihood that fem-Kaworu will be mentioned increases exponentially.
-the only English language novel actually being developed in parallel to its Japanese version involving a pan-human Soviet in a galactic struggle to survive and to export the communist utopia/revolution to all the down trodden alien class and race- one of the premise being that Khrushchev remains and has abandoned Lysenko stupidity
-"That purace has more badassu maddafaakas zan supermax spaceland."
-On EMF, as a thread becomes longer, the likelihood that fem-Kaworu will be mentioned increases exponentially.
-the only English language novel actually being developed in parallel to its Japanese version involving a pan-human Soviet in a galactic struggle to survive and to export the communist utopia/revolution to all the down trodden alien class and race- one of the premise being that Khrushchev remains and has abandoned Lysenko stupidity
- The Abhorrent
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- Gender: Male
I would say that is easily one of the best reviews of NGE I've ever seen. In many ways, negative (yet articulate) reviews of works you like are some of the best ways to help understand it on the whole. Her review is critical of many things I (and presumably many here) overlook, but she acknowledges it has some merits as well.
JesuOtaku's reviews are all very good in my honest opinion, very professional, informatic, and occasionally academic (NGE's review being probably the best example of that). All the while being entertaining.
Her end summation is more or less irrefutable:
"Eva is a must see, but not a must love."
That being said..... oh yeah, I have a few disagreements. This being NGE, subjectivity is always going to be a primary issue. Her explanation of why many people dislike NGE is more accurately her viewpoint specifically:
"The reason it angers so many people isn't because it's bad, but because it's good. It has such potential for perfection but is hell-bent on slitting it's wrists in the name of bitter pretention instead."
That's her review in a nutshell, give or take a bit. She gives it a decent score in the end, but seems endlessly frustrated by it. Not everyone has the same ideas of what's "perfect", but I would say Evangelion serves as the proverbial "carrot-on-a-stick" for her. It's there, but no way in hell is it going to give it to her.
You could say what she finds most frustrating about Evangelion could be that it's a deconstruction.... a particularly brutal deconstruction which tears every preconception apart. How characters act and evolve, how the plot should be resolved, how things should be done in general. The series is undeniably avant garde, but perhaps too much for her tastes.
Having watched some of her other reviews, I found a couple of themes which seem to be central to her ideal show:
- A conclusive ending.
- A work should be able to "stand on it's own".
The two concepts go hand-in-hand (such as the real ending being found in the manga, or just everything being explained better), and are generally good for anything not episodic. NGE denies both to an extent, you have to look up considerably more supplementary materials to comprehend what's really going on. Those can be official materials, dedicated sources like the wiki on this site (which is damned good, by the way), or running down to the local library to read some texts on psychology & philosophy.
Perhaps she's looking for nothing more than escapism, something which you can simply enjoy but leave behind at the end of it all. You can't say anything wrong with that ideal, though is NGE at fault for denying it? Subjective opinions rule there.
The last issue I seem to have is calling the introspective sequences (episodes 25 & 26 most notably) of the series "lazy". This may simply be a matter of perspective however, a misunderstanding on her part.
I would guess JesuOtaku is not the most introspective of individuals. Her general view on existentialism could be evidence of this. Everyone is to a degree I suppose, but most people are predominantly social creatures. The point of all this is that introspection is a foreign concept to most people, and it's really hard to explain how it works to someone unfamiliar with it.
What can seem wierd, long-winded, and preachy is quite simply just all of a person's thoughts being laid bare. Not the just the basics and the essentials, all of it. For someone (meaning most people) who is looking for a straight answer, it's overwhelming and frustratingly cryptic. But to those who understand the process, it's very clear what's going on even if they don't necessarily agree with the concepts.
This does lead into existentialism, as the basis of the whole spectrum is more or less people trying to define why they exist. An extraverted individual doesn't really go through this (at least not until they're generally older, as evidenced by midlife crises... perhaps), they are quite content with their lives. Why worry about what you're going to do in life when you'll be hanging with your friends during the weekend?
More introverted individuals however are naturually at odds with society in general, they don't quite "fit in" and they know it. This leads to a lot introspection, asking a lot of the big questions. How one finally gets through it is entirely unique to the individual, though existentialism (post-modern or otherwise) is a frequent route for those who prefer to find their own answers and not those of another. And is it just me or does this paragraph sound a bit like the pre-amble before the congratulation scene?
Anyhow, JesuOtaku has made some very impressive reviews. Her angle on NGE is definitely an atypical one, negative yet articulate and informative. Which makes it one of the best I've seen or read.
Still... I think she could still learn plenty about NGE and many other things. There is a lot of things which she seems to just not really understand plot-wise. Not the first time I've seen some not understand Asuka's apparent 180 in EoE.
This does go against her idea of a work being "able to stand on it's own"... but it might help at least clarify a lot for her. I'm not sure it will change her opinion on the series, but it might help iron out some of the issues with her review of what may be called the most subjective anime of all time.
And damn it all... my first post here and I throw out a wall of text. Ah well, over-analysis is always a spot of fun.
JesuOtaku's reviews are all very good in my honest opinion, very professional, informatic, and occasionally academic (NGE's review being probably the best example of that). All the while being entertaining.
Her end summation is more or less irrefutable:
"Eva is a must see, but not a must love."
That being said..... oh yeah, I have a few disagreements. This being NGE, subjectivity is always going to be a primary issue. Her explanation of why many people dislike NGE is more accurately her viewpoint specifically:
"The reason it angers so many people isn't because it's bad, but because it's good. It has such potential for perfection but is hell-bent on slitting it's wrists in the name of bitter pretention instead."
That's her review in a nutshell, give or take a bit. She gives it a decent score in the end, but seems endlessly frustrated by it. Not everyone has the same ideas of what's "perfect", but I would say Evangelion serves as the proverbial "carrot-on-a-stick" for her. It's there, but no way in hell is it going to give it to her.
You could say what she finds most frustrating about Evangelion could be that it's a deconstruction.... a particularly brutal deconstruction which tears every preconception apart. How characters act and evolve, how the plot should be resolved, how things should be done in general. The series is undeniably avant garde, but perhaps too much for her tastes.
Having watched some of her other reviews, I found a couple of themes which seem to be central to her ideal show:
- A conclusive ending.
- A work should be able to "stand on it's own".
The two concepts go hand-in-hand (such as the real ending being found in the manga, or just everything being explained better), and are generally good for anything not episodic. NGE denies both to an extent, you have to look up considerably more supplementary materials to comprehend what's really going on. Those can be official materials, dedicated sources like the wiki on this site (which is damned good, by the way), or running down to the local library to read some texts on psychology & philosophy.
Perhaps she's looking for nothing more than escapism, something which you can simply enjoy but leave behind at the end of it all. You can't say anything wrong with that ideal, though is NGE at fault for denying it? Subjective opinions rule there.
The last issue I seem to have is calling the introspective sequences (episodes 25 & 26 most notably) of the series "lazy". This may simply be a matter of perspective however, a misunderstanding on her part.
I would guess JesuOtaku is not the most introspective of individuals. Her general view on existentialism could be evidence of this. Everyone is to a degree I suppose, but most people are predominantly social creatures. The point of all this is that introspection is a foreign concept to most people, and it's really hard to explain how it works to someone unfamiliar with it.
What can seem wierd, long-winded, and preachy is quite simply just all of a person's thoughts being laid bare. Not the just the basics and the essentials, all of it. For someone (meaning most people) who is looking for a straight answer, it's overwhelming and frustratingly cryptic. But to those who understand the process, it's very clear what's going on even if they don't necessarily agree with the concepts.
This does lead into existentialism, as the basis of the whole spectrum is more or less people trying to define why they exist. An extraverted individual doesn't really go through this (at least not until they're generally older, as evidenced by midlife crises... perhaps), they are quite content with their lives. Why worry about what you're going to do in life when you'll be hanging with your friends during the weekend?
More introverted individuals however are naturually at odds with society in general, they don't quite "fit in" and they know it. This leads to a lot introspection, asking a lot of the big questions. How one finally gets through it is entirely unique to the individual, though existentialism (post-modern or otherwise) is a frequent route for those who prefer to find their own answers and not those of another. And is it just me or does this paragraph sound a bit like the pre-amble before the congratulation scene?
Anyhow, JesuOtaku has made some very impressive reviews. Her angle on NGE is definitely an atypical one, negative yet articulate and informative. Which makes it one of the best I've seen or read.
Still... I think she could still learn plenty about NGE and many other things. There is a lot of things which she seems to just not really understand plot-wise. Not the first time I've seen some not understand Asuka's apparent 180 in EoE.
This does go against her idea of a work being "able to stand on it's own"... but it might help at least clarify a lot for her. I'm not sure it will change her opinion on the series, but it might help iron out some of the issues with her review of what may be called the most subjective anime of all time.
And damn it all... my first post here and I throw out a wall of text. Ah well, over-analysis is always a spot of fun.
He who isn't afraid to stand by his ideals...
Isn't afraid to stand alone.
Isn't afraid to stand alone.
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
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- Gender: Male
Long reply to Zenithfleet, followed by short(er) replies to others:
But NGE does this in every respect with regards to all of its dualistic aspects, and it's a major reason why the second half becomes so dramatic for so many because it stands in such stark opposition to the first. And I think it's important to stress that NGE EARNS its "telling". It's spent so much time developing these characters and making us care about their problems that when they start examining all of these themes it should very much matter to us on a gut level.
It strikes me that most of her complaints about the writing has to do with NGE's (very conscious, I think) breaking of most writing rules and guidelines. She especially mentions ep. 24 and Kaworu, but I think that's one of the many examples where Anno's breaking with the traditional rules and writing works. If we're sympathizing/empathizing with Shinji's plight--and I think by this point we should be--the fact that he so strongly connects with Kaworu, this unknown stranger who acts like an emotional outlet to Shinji, should make perfect sense, and Kaworu's death SHOULD be tragic even though the character has such little screentime.
Ep. 24 is, in a sense, the culmination of NGE's second half trend of increasing the density of its narrative. The first half has such breadth and space; there's time for all of this levity, frivolity, and multi episodic development of characters, ideas, mysteries, etc. The first half feels liquid, like a legato in music, with one episode flowing into another. In the second half things get jagged, the rhythm gets staccato, and drama begins to condense, carrying out action arcs within the span of a single episode or even less. Ep. 24 is the like the most extreme example where NGE pushes that condensation to the breaking point. This is a subject that even Hiroki Azuma mentioned in his article and it's one that's really had a big effect on how I approached NGE's/Anno's handling of the drama, and it's something I think she missed (or just didn't like).
If you ask me, the one central idea that runs through all branches of existentialism is a kind of doubt. Even the Christian Kierkegaard said that that "leap of faith" was an essential aspect to Christian belief, and you can't take a "leap of faith" when there's no doubt. If you increase that doubt you get into the areas where you question all senses of objective truth, God, and even the existence of reality itself. You find a place where the only thing you can count on is yourself: what you feel and think and how you approach the world.
It seems to me that NGE finds a balance. It's releativism, not absolute subjectivism or solipsism or nihilism. While it stresses the importance of the individual's perception of reality, I don't think it ever says that there is no objective reality and that we can't do anything to change that. It merely stresses that change starts from within.
@Zenithfleet SPOILER: Show
I think I responded more out of shock than anything considering I've seen so few eloquent critiques of NGE's flaws.
Oh, sure, no harm done man. I quite enjoyed your post. :)
I thought the star replacing Kaworu's head falling into the LCL was a nice touch.
Oh, you're certainly right here. I guess we were mostly just addressing the parts of her review that went into what she considered the flaws. I mean, for posters like myself, NGE transcends star ratings. 4/4 hardly captures the profound effect it's had on some people and the world of anime (in general), so it would kinda be like giving Citizen Kane 3/4.
Yeah, that was mostly my point as well. If someone strongly disagrees with a certain philosophy it could/would certainly be a roadblock in addressing fiction that expounds on that philosophy.
I really love what you had to say here. I especially love this:
The thing about art is that almost every "rule" or "guideline" must be met with a strong "there are exceptions". There are most definitely times when it is appropriate to "tell, not show", and the very act of "telling" can be handled with a great deal of creativity and artistry that transcends the typical purpose of simply moving a story along and stripping it of its dramatic/sensuous elements. Like you said, NGE's first half (and most of its second) is so jam-packed with "show, don't tell" that its depths and nuances tend to go completely unnoticed by audiences, and that's part of what creates the psychological disorientation when the second half inverts that paradigm.
But NGE does this in every respect with regards to all of its dualistic aspects, and it's a major reason why the second half becomes so dramatic for so many because it stands in such stark opposition to the first. And I think it's important to stress that NGE EARNS its "telling". It's spent so much time developing these characters and making us care about their problems that when they start examining all of these themes it should very much matter to us on a gut level.
It strikes me that most of her complaints about the writing has to do with NGE's (very conscious, I think) breaking of most writing rules and guidelines. She especially mentions ep. 24 and Kaworu, but I think that's one of the many examples where Anno's breaking with the traditional rules and writing works. If we're sympathizing/empathizing with Shinji's plight--and I think by this point we should be--the fact that he so strongly connects with Kaworu, this unknown stranger who acts like an emotional outlet to Shinji, should make perfect sense, and Kaworu's death SHOULD be tragic even though the character has such little screentime.
Ep. 24 is, in a sense, the culmination of NGE's second half trend of increasing the density of its narrative. The first half has such breadth and space; there's time for all of this levity, frivolity, and multi episodic development of characters, ideas, mysteries, etc. The first half feels liquid, like a legato in music, with one episode flowing into another. In the second half things get jagged, the rhythm gets staccato, and drama begins to condense, carrying out action arcs within the span of a single episode or even less. Ep. 24 is the like the most extreme example where NGE pushes that condensation to the breaking point. This is a subject that even Hiroki Azuma mentioned in his article and it's one that's really had a big effect on how I approached NGE's/Anno's handling of the drama, and it's something I think she missed (or just didn't like).
Yeah, I wholly concur with all of this.
But judging by many posts I've read on these forums, for a certain subset of the audience NGE did more than that. It connected. It took 'joy of anime' tropes (to shamelessly steal a phrase from an old essay) and then twisted like a snake to bite some of us in the heart. Though strangely enough, it didn't do that for me. Not for many years. But that's another story and it's even more long-winded, believe me.
Yes!
In a sense I agree that NGE's philosophy is "a mess", but in another sense I think that mess is precisely what makes it so powerful. Because Anno isn't a philosopher and merely took a few things he read as being a medium to express things he already felt, NGE doesn't easily fall into any of the philosophical "isms", as can be seen by the debates on here about whether NGE is existential and, if so, what branch or is it solipsism or Buddhism or atheistic/deistic, etc. In a way, it's almost like a philosophical stream-of-conscious with Anno endlessly hopping trains of thought from one key idea to another that's strongly related. It definitely reminds me of Godard in the respect that it throws so many ideas at the audience that the best they can do is latch on to the few that really speak to them and then interpret it from that angle. One thing I've discovered about analyzing NGE and trying to do it from a holistic perspective is that it defies reductionism, and that richness is one of the many things that keeps people endlessly discussing it.
Kierkegaard wants a word with you...
If you ask me, the one central idea that runs through all branches of existentialism is a kind of doubt. Even the Christian Kierkegaard said that that "leap of faith" was an essential aspect to Christian belief, and you can't take a "leap of faith" when there's no doubt. If you increase that doubt you get into the areas where you question all senses of objective truth, God, and even the existence of reality itself. You find a place where the only thing you can count on is yourself: what you feel and think and how you approach the world.
It seems to me that NGE finds a balance. It's releativism, not absolute subjectivism or solipsism or nihilism. While it stresses the importance of the individual's perception of reality, I don't think it ever says that there is no objective reality and that we can't do anything to change that. It merely stresses that change starts from within.
Nah, I just want to pull her hair and run away.
Excellent post, man. Since I've already running late today I'll have to take a rain check on replying in depth and save it for tomorrow. But I very much liked everything you had to say.The Abhorrent wrote:And damn it all... my first post here and I throw out a wall of text. Ah well, over-analysis is always a spot of fun.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
Jimbo, you're right about the balance. I don't think JO quite got what they were saying in the last 2 episodes. I think she may have interpreted it incorrectly, perhaps. Saying that there is no such thing as objective truth is just ignorant. White is white, black is black. These are truths that cannot be refuted, at least not intelligently. In NGE, however, they never say outright that there is no objective truth, but that there are no objective truths when it comes to people, psychology, and understanding who you are. The only objective truth about that is that we're all different and subjective, however conflicting that sounds.
About her arguing the use of the word "truth" in it I'm still a little caught up on. Truth is very subjective, yes. People before Columbus though the Earth was flat, so it was a truth to them. But once the truth is altered, it's no longer a truth. When dealing with emotions and thoughts and ideals, though, it becomes complicated to me. It is "your" truth, but it may not be true. I don't think there is a god, but that doesn't make it true for me. It's not even really a falsity either, though, because as far as I'm concerned, it's true. It frustrates me that I can't take a side in that argument.
And damn. Why couldn't I remember Kierkegaard? I feel like an ass now. But from what I got out of NGE and EoE is that you need to look within yourself and within your heart to find the answers about who you are.
Also, I completely understand why JO doesn't like the philosophy of Eva. It, like Jimbo said, is a mess. It can't be easily classified or categorized, and although very existentialist, some people could even say it strays into nihilist territory. When something can't be categorized like that, it makes it hard for people to just say "yes" or "no" to it, and people will usually just latch on to the only part that they can discern. What we really should do is create a list of philosophical ideals in all of the Eva media, and label it as "Evaism" or "Annoism." Eva is a huge melting pot of philosophy mixed with Freudian psychology. It can't be categorized because it's a philosophy unto itself. It's the Bebop of the philosophy world.
I can agree with JO on some of her negative aspects though. The lack of continuity of the series and the unwillingness of Anno to let it go turns a lot of people off of it. Like she mentioned with the "helltrain" motif, Anno is an amazing director. He can get emotion out of a single image and use it again and again.... and again. The problem is that eventually it gets past the whole "repetition for effect" idea and into the laziness side. I still love the helltrain, but I think we all have to admit that it's a little overused.
I also agree with her about why Shinji is such an unlikable character. I get how Anno wanted to make an opposite of what the usual character is, but you still have to make people care about him. I, personally, didn't care about him. He was uninvolved and was only there as a medium to convey emotions. He was just a metaphor for loneliness, basically. Even Rei, while emotionless and rather bland, was more interesting than him. By episode 10 we know how lonely and sad and pathetic Shinji is, and everywhere they go after that just makes us hate him. Like she said, Anno digs around in the pit of psychology until it's not really fun anymore, it's just really damn depressing. I LIKED the psychology, but I'm not gonna lie and say that I liked Shinji. Asuka is the only real person who has any right to be the way she is, save maybe Misato. Rei is a close third, but Shinji is just a pathetic person. He is almost intentionally lonely, which is just very hard to believe.
I'd probably be considered an introvert. I only become people's friends when I know that they're good people and that even if they hurt me, I'll still know that they were good people regardless. But Shinji won't even do that! Misato allows him into her house and saves his life. Asuka OBVIOUSLY has feelings for him, and he ignores it and plays it off as her hatred for him, and he fabricates feelings for Rei. He is a pathetic and depressing character, and I can dig that. But the way he just "comes" to the conclusion in Ep. 26 is just too damn unbelievable. Someone who has lived their ENTIRE life lonely and sad and pathetic can't just change in 30 seconds, especially if they were only getting worse for the past few months. Take a show like "House" for instance. House is an ass and a loner and a totally unlikable person. But over the couse of YEARS he changes and learns to feel, even a little. It takes YEARS, and he was a fully grown man who knows everything about himself that he can. The "epiphany" Shinji has is just not possible. It can be said that Instrumentality allowed him to see the experiences of others and learn more quickly, but that all just adds to the confusing canon of the story.
Damn, wall o' text. I certainly hope that people don't think I hate Eva now, cause I don't, I love it, but I can understand and agree with some of JO's points.
About her arguing the use of the word "truth" in it I'm still a little caught up on. Truth is very subjective, yes. People before Columbus though the Earth was flat, so it was a truth to them. But once the truth is altered, it's no longer a truth. When dealing with emotions and thoughts and ideals, though, it becomes complicated to me. It is "your" truth, but it may not be true. I don't think there is a god, but that doesn't make it true for me. It's not even really a falsity either, though, because as far as I'm concerned, it's true. It frustrates me that I can't take a side in that argument.
And damn. Why couldn't I remember Kierkegaard? I feel like an ass now. But from what I got out of NGE and EoE is that you need to look within yourself and within your heart to find the answers about who you are.
Also, I completely understand why JO doesn't like the philosophy of Eva. It, like Jimbo said, is a mess. It can't be easily classified or categorized, and although very existentialist, some people could even say it strays into nihilist territory. When something can't be categorized like that, it makes it hard for people to just say "yes" or "no" to it, and people will usually just latch on to the only part that they can discern. What we really should do is create a list of philosophical ideals in all of the Eva media, and label it as "Evaism" or "Annoism." Eva is a huge melting pot of philosophy mixed with Freudian psychology. It can't be categorized because it's a philosophy unto itself. It's the Bebop of the philosophy world.
I can agree with JO on some of her negative aspects though. The lack of continuity of the series and the unwillingness of Anno to let it go turns a lot of people off of it. Like she mentioned with the "helltrain" motif, Anno is an amazing director. He can get emotion out of a single image and use it again and again.... and again. The problem is that eventually it gets past the whole "repetition for effect" idea and into the laziness side. I still love the helltrain, but I think we all have to admit that it's a little overused.
I also agree with her about why Shinji is such an unlikable character. I get how Anno wanted to make an opposite of what the usual character is, but you still have to make people care about him. I, personally, didn't care about him. He was uninvolved and was only there as a medium to convey emotions. He was just a metaphor for loneliness, basically. Even Rei, while emotionless and rather bland, was more interesting than him. By episode 10 we know how lonely and sad and pathetic Shinji is, and everywhere they go after that just makes us hate him. Like she said, Anno digs around in the pit of psychology until it's not really fun anymore, it's just really damn depressing. I LIKED the psychology, but I'm not gonna lie and say that I liked Shinji. Asuka is the only real person who has any right to be the way she is, save maybe Misato. Rei is a close third, but Shinji is just a pathetic person. He is almost intentionally lonely, which is just very hard to believe.
I'd probably be considered an introvert. I only become people's friends when I know that they're good people and that even if they hurt me, I'll still know that they were good people regardless. But Shinji won't even do that! Misato allows him into her house and saves his life. Asuka OBVIOUSLY has feelings for him, and he ignores it and plays it off as her hatred for him, and he fabricates feelings for Rei. He is a pathetic and depressing character, and I can dig that. But the way he just "comes" to the conclusion in Ep. 26 is just too damn unbelievable. Someone who has lived their ENTIRE life lonely and sad and pathetic can't just change in 30 seconds, especially if they were only getting worse for the past few months. Take a show like "House" for instance. House is an ass and a loner and a totally unlikable person. But over the couse of YEARS he changes and learns to feel, even a little. It takes YEARS, and he was a fully grown man who knows everything about himself that he can. The "epiphany" Shinji has is just not possible. It can be said that Instrumentality allowed him to see the experiences of others and learn more quickly, but that all just adds to the confusing canon of the story.
Damn, wall o' text. I certainly hope that people don't think I hate Eva now, cause I don't, I love it, but I can understand and agree with some of JO's points.
"Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with his experience."
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