Favorite crazy Evangelion theories

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:59 am

Topic please
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Postby Reichu » Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:04 am

Nuclear Lunchbox: Okay, to make something clear, I'm exaggerating my stance because the rhetoric constructions I've seen over the years annoy me. I cringe inside whenever I see "Asuka got eaten" or something like that, since it forces me to visualize the Evas manually cracking open the entry plug to get at a tiny little Asuka morsel and... no. It's dumb.

This is also incredibly annoying because the sort of hyperconflation you're attempting to justify does not occur in the fandom's language elsewhere. Let's look at various instances where the pilot felt something but it didn't physically map onto them, shall we? How much of this phraseology do you hear?

- Shinji got his arm broken. -- No.
- Shinji got skull-fucked. -- No.
- Asuka lost the bottom of her leg. -- No.
- Asuka's back was drenched in acid. -- No.
- Rei's arm was blown off. -- No.
- Asuka's arms were cut off. -- No.
- Asuka almost got her head cut off. -- No.
- Rei's head was cleaved in half. -- No.
- Asuka was disemboweled and eaten. -- DING DING DING!

Your hypnosis and Matrix analogies seem to be beside the point, because, in general, I don't see hyper-conflation occurring. The last item is usually in the context of pity pissing contests where one group of fans is trying to prove to another that their character is the worse off / doesn't deserve bile / whatever. YOUR CHARACTER NEVER HAD SOMETHING THIS BAD HAPPEN TO THEM, THEREFORE YOU LOSE! So, yeah. On that basis, I cannot justify the practice, since it's a pathetic attempt to appeal to emotion.

In episode one, Shinji synched with his Evangelion and felt his arm was being torn off.

"Shinji, that's not your arm!"

what you've said also begs the question of whether or not Asuka's injuries were truly only in her mind.

Raises the question. :p The spear to Kyo's face obviously did something, and I'm fairly confident that the final eight spear throws affected Asuka. I wasn't talking about those, though. I was saying that Asuka herself was not gutted or eaten.

If Evangelion didn't tell us what happens when you synch up to an Eva, I'd be inclined to take this seriously. However, the show does tell us, and so I do not.

So by your logic, in the example I provided (the Pern books, where people have a psychic link with their dragons and feel what they feel), it would be proper and correct to say that Lessa herself has been banged by a giant bronze dragon, many times. Good to know!

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:46 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:This is also incredibly annoying because the sort of hyperconflation you're attempting to justify does not occur in the fandom's language elsewhere. Let's look at various instances where the pilot felt something but it didn't physically map onto them, shall we? How much of this phraseology do you hear?


How many of those were coupled with demonstrated physical injuries during the same battle? Not a single one. I think it's pretty obvious Asuka wasn't disemboweled, but only because it would be impossible for her to sit up as she did at the end if she was. But given her other injuries I can see why someone might think that, and it's hardly in the category of "dumbest thoughts ever."

As to her being literally eaten, I have no idea why you think it's such a dumb idea. We know Unit 02 was torn to pieces, and we know the MPEs were snacking on its remains (and the upper torso specifically, no less), so why couldn't she have been eaten? It doesn't really matter much, since she was almost certainly dead by that point, but it hardly seems impossible. And heck, if she was eaten it would explain why we don't see Rei/Lilith tanging her body -- there was nothing to tang!
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:31 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:This is also incredibly annoying because the sort of hyperconflation you're attempting to justify does not occur in the fandom's language elsewhere. Let's look at various instances where the pilot felt something but it didn't physically map onto them, shall we? How much of this phraseology do you hear?

- Shinji got his arm broken. -- No.
- Shinji got skull-fucked. -- No.

- Asuka lost the bottom of her leg. -- No.
- Asuka's back was drenched in acid. -- No.
- Rei's arm was blown off. -- No.
- Asuka's arms were cut off. -- No.
- Asuka almost got her head cut off. -- No.
- Rei's head was cleaved in half. -- No.
- Asuka was disemboweled and eaten. -- DING DING DING!

And yet if we look at all those bolded sections? Remember Shinji's reaction to his Eva getting its arm broken and helmet pierced? Remember Rei's reaction when Nerv blew Eva-00's arm off? Remember Asuka clutching her shoulders after Zeruel sliced them off? Your argument assumes that if something does not happen to a person's body physically, they cannot have felt it at all-- this is an argument that spits in the face of logic and everything that the series has presented to us, as we very clearly do see that when something happens to an Evangelion, the pilot feels that it happened to them! This is one of the most basic tenets of the show, and your argument ignores it!

Don't think I've forgotten about Asuka almost getting her head cut off. Remember the panic in Nerv when they tried to cut Asuka's synch before Zeruel lopped Eva-02's head off? They succeeded in doing so, fortunately-- and I have no doubt in my mind that what they feared, based on evidence presented to us in the show with wounds showing up on the pilots themselves, was that Asuka's head would indeed be separated from her body.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Your hypnosis and Matrix analogies seem to be beside the point, because, in general, I don't see hyper-conflation occurring.

I would have added the following above, but it seemed right to put it here instead. That list you posted is missing when Shinji got blasted by Ramiel and strangled by Bardiel; (the former of which I believed I mentioned in my previous post. Those are both examples where something that happened to the Evangelion happened to the person piloting it, introducing us to the notion that when pilot and Eva are synchronized, the effects can go far beyond just feeling what's happening-- it will happen to their physical bodies as well.

The whole point of those two analogies is that it doesn't matter what actually happens to your body if your nervous system is stimulated. If it does happen to your body, well, that's just a bonus.

View Original PostReichu wrote:The last item is usually in the context of pity pissing contests where one group of fans is trying to prove to another that their character is the worse off / doesn't deserve bile / whatever. YOUR CHARACTER NEVER HAD SOMETHING THIS BAD HAPPEN TO THEM, THEREFORE YOU LOSE! So, yeah. On that basis, I cannot justify the practice, since it's a pathetic attempt to appeal to emotion.

So, what you're doing to Asuka with Kyoko? :nyao:

View Original PostReichu wrote:"Shinji, that's not your arm!"

Did it look like Shinji knew or believed that at the time? Hell, it barely looked like he believed it after the fact, when he was staring at his arm in the room with all the benches. When somebody loses a leg, if they can still feel the leg despite it not being there, nobody denies that they feel like they have a leg. Whether or not it is there is obvious-- it isn't-- but nobody would deny that to that person their leg, to them, is there.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Raises the question. :p

No, I'm using it correctly. Your statement does not raise a question-- it makes a statement assuming a conclusion that may not be correct, eg. saying that all of Asuka's injuries were only in her head, when that is not something that you have proven. Therefore, it does not raise the question of if her injuries were physical or mental; rather, it begs the question since your argument assumes it without bothering to prove it. Your argument is based on a premise that lacks support, and therefore "begs the question".

View Original PostReichu wrote:I was saying that Asuka herself was not gutted or eaten.

Your argument stays focused on the physical world, without bothering to take into account that in multiple instances in the show, which I have listed in this giant-ass post, pilots have felt exactly what happened to their Evangelions and even had what happened to the Eva happen to their real bodies.

View Original PostReichu wrote:So by your logic, in the example I provided (the Pern books, where people have a psychic link with their dragons and feel what they feel), it would be proper and correct to say that Lessa herself has been banged by a giant bronze dragon, many times. Good to know!

It would be proper and correct to say that she knows what that feels like, yes. While it may not have happened to her physical body, if the mental connection that she shares with her dragon is similar to what the pilots share with their Evangelions, then she absolutely knows what it feels like to be boned by a dragon.

The physical injury we know Asuka sustained was the MP Eva lancing her eye. The one we think she actually sustained was her arm getting split in half. With regard to everything else that happened to her in that Evangelion, I'm not here to argue that her physical body was actually disemboweled or that it was physically torn apart when the MP Evas came down to eat it. If someone chooses to argue that, I can't help them there asides from say that since we don't see her being eaten, we can't prove it (and with regard to her disembowelment, we know that it didn't happen to her body because we were watching her.)

However, I will certainly stand by the notion that Asuka could feel every single thing that happened to Eva-02, regardless of whether or not the injury appeared on her body. Whether your argument cares to acknowledge it or not, we know that pilots feel what happens to their Evangelions, and therefore during that battle, Asuka was painfully aware of every single last thing happening to that Evangelion unit.

(Also, speaking of being boned by a dragon, I bought some hentai at AX that has someone who transforms into a fucking dragon while boning a loli. It's a little painful to watch [read:very painful and somewhat awkward], but the translations are fuckin' gold.)

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:37 pm

We're here to discuss failed attempts at EVA analysis, not synchronization and its affects on the pilots
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Postby Reichu » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:58 pm

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:I'm not here to argue that her physical body was actually disemboweled or that it was physically torn apart when the MP Evas came down to eat it.

Reichu wrote:Some more dumb conclusions. Prepare your rage machines.
  • Asuka was disemboweled and eaten by the MP Evas.

I put it down because I have seen either or both stated many times over the years. Odds are at least some of those people actually believed it to be literally true.

I have absolutely no idea why you're explaining the fundamentals of pilot synchronization, since I know that stuff from seeing the show (it's a pretty obvious point and kind of hard to miss) and was making absolutely no effort to dismiss it. I was complaining about rhetoric used by others. That was all.

Next dumb conclusion: the MP Evas "regenerated". No, I'm not talking about the manga.

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Postby Squigsquasher » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:06 pm

The dumbest conclusion anyone has ever drawn from Eva?

Probably the idea that the end of EoE is in any way shape or form positive.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:12 pm

View Original PostSquigsquasher wrote:The dumbest conclusion anyone has ever drawn from Eva?

Probably the idea that the end of EoE is in any way shape or form positive.


Yeah, you wouldn't wanna pay attention to the script or anything. That'd be silly. :devil:

OT: As TMBounty_Hunter pointed out in another thread, the notion that fans, particularly Western fans, have any influence whatsoever over Anno's creative decisions is the height of absurdity. People still think EoE was a giant middle finger to Eva's fans, and the myth just won't die.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:24 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I have absolutely no idea why you're explaining the fundamentals of pilot synchronization, since I know that stuff from seeing the show (it's a pretty obvious point and kind of hard to miss) and was making absolutely no effort to dismiss it.

My entire argument was based around your argument's dismissal that anything happened to Asuka that would make us want to feel sorry for her, as well as the dismissal of whatever pain she may have felt just because it didn't happen to her physical body. The premise that nothing happened to Asuka that would make her somewhat deserving of our sympathy or that she "got off easy", as well as the notion that because it didn't happen to her body she couldn't have felt the actual pain of it, was what I was arguing against. However, like you, I've made my points and am prepared to let the issue rest.

View Original PostSquigsquasher wrote:The dumbest conclusion anyone has ever drawn from Eva?

Probably the idea that the end of EoE is in any way shape or form positive.

:rolleyes: What Bagheera said, pretty much.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:28 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Yeah, you wouldn't wanna pay attention to the script or anything. That'd be silly. :devil:

Well, it is positive. But it's not happy, which is probably what the poster meant.

EoE had a very positive effect on me. I loved how the movie was being able to tell its message and how it weaved a variety of tones and emotional scenes. And whether or not I feel happy, sad, or melancholy by the end of the movie changes each time I watch it.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:39 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:
  • Rei's falling body parts doom post-3I Earth.
You didn't have the same primary school headmaster that I did, the one who published essays on the subject of meteor impacts. Left a lasting impression, that did.

No, I just posted that image the other day, so I shan't do it again just yet.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:02 pm

Mr. Tines: How does it follow from a proper education in impactor physics that any fictional depiction of an impact event must be assumed to be 100% accurate in all aspects of its physics? Fiction is notorious for not giving a shit. NGE is well established to only give a shit about physics when it wants to. The conclusion that Rei's body parts MUST have produced a realistic long-term aftermath is illogical. It's almost like you want the ending to be even bleaker than it already is or something!

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:the notion that because it didn't happen to her body she couldn't have felt the actual pain of it, was what I was arguing against.

I never said or implied that she didn't feel it. (I acknowledged that she did.) :p The rest of your problems seem to stem from further misinterpretation. Namely: I complained about hyperbolic language and appeal to emotion, then proceeded to do exactly that. Suspicious, no? Did it occur to you that maybe this was on purpose? :tongueflap: (Admittedly, I probably should have exaggerated even more than I did to achieve the proper effect, but we all make mistakes.)

I am fully aware of the power of vicarious experience. Even in mundane day to day life, sympathetic emotional pain can be crippling, so indirectly experiencing physical trauma that would kill an ordinary human must really be something. The show acknowledges this, with hospital stays being a routine part of the post-sortie experience, and the movies smartly ramp up the stakes where sympathetic damage is concerned (cf. post 8th Angel). And I don't fault anyone for relating to Asuka more than to her Eva (though I will fault them for being an actual fan of hers, nyuk nyuk!); that's perfectly logical.

I think my original point was lost somewhere. Also weird that this particular item seems to be more objectionable than the other ones in my list. I must not be trying hard enough!

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Postby Rei IV » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:40 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote: I must not be trying hard enough!
.....Or you're not doing it right! ;)
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:26 pm

It's not vicarious, Reichu. She's feeling it as if it's happening to her. The sensation is so intense her body spontaneously rips apart. You're just being needlessly pedantic about the specific meanings of words.

This isn't sympathetic pain we're talking about, their nervous systems are synchronized.

Also yes, Kyoko experiences it too, which is rather mystically important.

Anyhoo, before I forget:

Dumbest conclusion:

  • Evas other than Unit 01 and 02 have some woman's soul in them because somebody said so rather than any internal evidence in the series, even though everything about the other ones having souls is incoherent and requires a bunch of unsupported leaps
  • Eva isn't about magic
  • Rei isn't fifth dimensional
  • Pen Pen does not breathe in royalty
  • Toji and Hikari wouldn't just break up if he wasn't stomped by a giant robot, I mean they're like 13 and they're not even in a real relationship yet
  • Ritsuko isn't the best girl
  • Kaworu/Asuka shipping. What the hell man

Anyway, important question: If the Eva had an orgasm, would the pilot feel it? What about the other way?

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Postby Rei IV » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:51 pm

I thought Shin-chan was the best (Eva) girl? As for dumb conclusions well, mine would have to be Princess Pissy and the Puppy Boy being the next Adam and Eve at the end of EOE, Ritsuko being evil, a bitch and a mad scientist, Yui being evil and a bitch and Q Misato and Asuka being hateful, cold bitches for the slight apathy they showed Shinji in the film and weren't cooing/cuddling him.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:18 pm

The dumbest conclusion?

That anything they personally don't understand, doesn't really like OR is not turning out the way they expected it too in any form is Anno or the creators "trolling".

They're not.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:41 am

That Eva in general and EoE specifically "just doesn't make sense."
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:48 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Mr. Tines: How does it follow from a proper education in impactor physics that any fictional depiction of an impact event must be assumed to be 100% accurate in all aspects of its physics? Fiction is notorious for not giving a shit.
Science fiction is notorious for revelling in this sort of thing; and we know that is a significant part of the backgrounds of the classic Gainax team.

NGE is well established to only give a shit about physics when it wants to. The conclusion that Rei's body parts MUST have produced a realistic long-term aftermath is illogical. It's almost like you want the ending to be even bleaker than it already is or something!
They drew impacts like these, when they could have had GNR just fade away into sparkles (or even snow). I saw what they drew and agreed that yes, it all comes tumbling down.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:50 am

Lilith didn't have much of an "impact," though. She still created a hell of a tsunami, and that's a big deal, but comparing her death to a meteor impact is misleading. An undersea earthquake would be a more apt comparison.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:01 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Lilith didn't have much of an "impact," though. She still created a hell of a tsunami, and that's a big deal, but comparing her death to a meteor impact is misleading. An undersea earthquake would be a more apt comparison.
That image shows a wave thousands of times higher than the 11-3-11 tsunami raised; that's one hell of an earthquake -- meaning something approaching magnitude 13. And oh look -- that's about the same magnitude as the Chicxulub impactor.

Which rather matches up with my original "show your working"

Start by taking 160km/100 miles as a round number for Giant Naked Rei (GNR)'s height (though actually she looks taller than 12 geofront diameters), putting her centre of mass about 50 miles up — not enough that we have to worry about inverse square effects.

Earth's escape velocity is 11.2km/s, which is the speed attained by falling one radius (4,000 miles) under 1g; and kinetic energy goes as velocity squared, so an asteroid with relative velocity 22.4km/s at infinity has the energy of a 16,000 mile fall under 1g; add in the potential energy from falling, that's a 20,000 mile fall or 400 times the energy per unit mass that GNR has.

Assume GNR to have the density of water (or human flesh, much the same in bulk), while the asteroid is mainly silicate (density about 2.7 times that of water), then the asteroid has energy about 1000 times as much per unit volume. 1000 = 10³, so GNR will impact to zero altitude with the same total energy as an asteroid about one tenth her dimensions.

The big assumption is about her density - but the splash image is clearly of something significantly denser than air; and Lilith's regeneration showed that she was not limited by anything quite so tawdry as classical conservation of stress-energy.
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