Is this really Lilith...?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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AuraTwilight
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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:36 pm

The preview to 3.0/Q after the end titles of 2.0 explicitly announces that Kaworu will descend down to Central Dogma in Unit-06, and we see Unit-06 slowly floating down the shaft. Based on this evidence, I conclude that it is a FACT that the descent will take place.


That doesn't mean he's going down to the Big White Giant Misato called Lilith.

Are you saying that this scene is not relevant to the plot, and that the trailer is just "Hideaki Anno trolling his audience again"? I find that highly unlikely for at least two reasons.


In all fairness, shit that was in the 2.0 preview ended up not being in the actual movie whatsoever.

First, Kaworu has such a powerful presence in the Evangelion universe, that it would just about negate his character concept to have him perform any (and I mean ANY) uninteresting, straightforward and/or anticlimactic actions. Although I do expect 3.0/Q to give him more screentime than he had in NGE and EoE combined, (which may likely present him as a more human character than in NGE), Kaworu is still the prophet who is aware of all the metaphysics in the Rebuild universe, and will not act on a whim. Therefore, whatever is down there (and we know it's a white giant) must be important to him.


Just because Kaworu is going to do something important doesn't mean he's going to be diddling with Lilith. His motives are clearly different in this universe.

Besides, if the white giant (Misato: "It's Lilith.") was unimportant, why not leave it out entirely? Rebuild is partly meant as a more accessible version of Neon Genesis Evangelion, and a sure sign of bad writing is to complicate a story with elements that have no importance to it. Rebuild of Evangelion is not badly written (no, not even where it concerns Asuka Shikinami).


Dude, knock off the bullshit, I never said Lilith wasn't going to be important, I was saying it's not necessary that they're gonna jerk around the name like they did in the first series. Because it's a more accessible, and condensed plot, they might've just said "This is Lilith" so they don't have to explain it later and undo an Adam lie.

God knows there's going to be way too much shit they have to reveal, twist, and explain as it is.

Secondly, whenever a pilot gets into an EVA Unit, the audience may expect a battle. On that note, the scene from the trailer is clearly meant to evoke a parallel with the climax of Episode 24, where Kaworu also descends down the shaft (only with Unit-02, which he pilots from the outside). Although the brief shot does not depict Shinji, Eva-01, Rei or anyone else for that matter, I do expect some sort of confrontation and likely a battle. Whatever it is, it must be at least as climactic as the original Tabris fight.


Irrelevant. Lilith is not the sole motive Kaworu has to battle with anyone.
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:13 pm

@AuraTwilight:

In my previous post, I presented my little "mirror" theory and used it to create a prediction for 3.0.

Please note that all we do here is speculate, so saying I am wrong because all I do is speculate defeats the purpose of this forum. A well-argued prediction is better than a blind guess.

I expect my theory to be far from accurate, but still better than blind guesswork. I could be wrong about this, of course, quite likely even. So I invite you to prove me wrong, by discounting my "mirror theory", by showing that I misapply it in making my predictions, or by presenting a better theory.

Your argument ("But Kaworu could do A for all we know, so there") is blind guesswork, and therefore not good enough.

Although in all fairness, I must grant you the point that if the 2.0 preview trailer proved to be inaccurate, I should not blindly rely on the 3.0 preview trailer as "fact", but merely as "very likely". This weakens my prediction slightly, but not enough to reduce it to blind guesswork.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:07 pm

All I'm doing is being devil's advocate and point out you're making a lot of reliance on unproved assumptions. Generally, it's bad form to use one piece of unsupported speculation as support for more speculation.

And my idea that Kaworu could do "Totally Different Action X" isn't blind guesswork; he speared Unit 01 and prevented Third Impact, calls Gendo "Father" on the moon, and apparently his end-motive is making Shinji happy, instead of using Shinji for a larger goal.

He's totally different, we're gonna have to roll with that. His "True Eva" even seems to imply he doesn't want/need Adam.
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:03 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:All I'm doing is being devil's advocate and point out you're making a lot of reliance on unproved assumptions. Generally, it's bad form to use one piece of unsupported speculation as support for more speculation.

You work with what you have. I'm actually trying to test the "mirror image" theory by applying it to the case of "Is this Lilith?", to evaluate whether the "mirror image" theory is viable as a method for further induction. Induction is always uncertain, but for lack of certainty, it's still better than guessing.

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:And my idea that Kaworu could do "Totally Different Action X" isn't blind guesswork; he speared Unit 01 and prevented Third Impact, calls Gendo "Father" on the moon, and apparently his end-motive is making Shinji happy, instead of using Shinji for a larger goal.

He's totally different, we're gonna have to roll with that. His "True Eva" even seems to imply he doesn't want/need Adam.

I'll address these in order:

1. Spearing Unit-01 and preventing Third Impact is his (dramatic) entrance into the story. (His previous appearances were merely foreshadowing.) This event is actually the mirror image of the Arael battle in the NGE series. There, Rei threw the Spear of Longinus from earth towards the Angel, pre-empting it from causing Third Impact, with the spear ending up orbiting the moon.
What do we see here? Kaworu (who is seen by many as a polar opposite to Rei) descends from the moon to throws a Spear of Longinus at "God-Being" Unit-01, preventing it from causing Third Impact, with the spear ending up being impaled into the earth.

2. He called Gendo "father". This is indeed new, and relates to either Gendo's or SEELE's hidden agenda with regard to Second Impact (and possibly Third Impact). This may relate to Kaworu's origin story, which was sadly not included in the original series and can therefore not be mirrored.

3. Making Shinji happy was Kaworu's final motive in NGE episode 24. Just not his original one. He realized that he felt love for Shinji (as well as the Lilin in general) and that his succeeding in his mission would mean the end of Lilith's children. In the end, he gave his life for Shinji (ironically by having Shinji kill him, but cruel irony is one of the hallmarks of the Evangelion universe in my opinion).
So what if 3.0/Q will reverse this? What if Kaworu's original mission is to make Shinji happy, but Shinji (being heavily invested in Rei) keeps him at bay? What if Kaworu's unanswered love (whether romantic or otherwise) disillusions him, and causes him to turn away from SEELE, and descend down the shaft towards the white giant (Misato: "It's Lilith."), to cause Third Impact and wipe out humanity?

Again, this is speculation, and does not so much serve to predict the events of the next movie(s), but rather to support the argument that my "mirror image" theory is able to generate slightly-more-plausible predictions than predictions that are based on no argument at all.

And I should reiterate that, in the end, this forum is all about speculation about Rebuild of Evangelion, and the argument that any speculation is likely to be incorrect is not an argument to stop speculating and runs counter to the spirit of this forum.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:04 pm

Considering how many unresolved mysteries are in NME right now, I fail to see what we have to gain by looking for reasons to second-guess one of the few things we've actually been told. And a bunch of other stuff Aura already said.
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:31 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Considering how many unresolved mysteries are in NME right now, I fail to see what we have to gain by looking for reasons to second-guess one of the few things we've actually been told. And a bunch of other stuff Aura already said.


Argh! I can't argue against Occam's Razor with my theory. I guess the "mirror image" theory by itself is not sufficient to raise doubt on things that have actually been presented in the movies (however (un)reliable the source may be).

But look at the original post and the arguments provided there for an Adam/Lilith swap. The masks can be seen as clues. And the connection between Lilith and the moon too.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:53 pm

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:The masks can be seen as clues. And the connection between Lilith and the moon too.

These are both based on comparing NME with the original, though.

- In NME, Lilith has no known connection with the moon.
- Eva-06's mask links it to the Moon (craters) and to Seele/god (the 7-eyed seal), and there are the two weeping eyes as well, whatever those mean.
- Lilith's mask links her to the Angels, most obviously. (Since next to nothing has been revealed about the Angels and their origin, though, the meaning of this is up in the air.) There are also seven-sided bolts (divine number again) with Seele's seal on top going through the eye holes (ewwww).

Interesting factoid: Lilith had her NGE mask for quite a while into 1.0's production, and the moon giant's mask was to be the same as hers.

With regard to your original post: While it's likely that we'll get some variation of Kaworu reaching Lilith's chamber, the climactic moment does not by any means have to involve her identification. That's a bit "been there, done that", and there's no shortage of other options (most of which we can't anticipate) to mess with.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:58 pm

3. Making Shinji happy was Kaworu's final motive in NGE episode 24.


Let's just say that this is nowhere NEAR proven and move on.
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Postby Assasinate » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:11 pm

hmm a when an original body of a soul had a scar, then the soul's current container will also had a scar?? seems intiguing....
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:05 pm

Uh...no, not at all. Where are you getting that from?
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Postby Assasinate » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:33 am

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Uh...no, not at all. Where are you getting that from?


apparently i remember something seems in the same scenario...
remember the episode where zeruel able to go down into tokyo-3 (and defeated EVA02)

when he manages to reach the underground... rather going straight to lilith,
he moved to the control room and when she found Misato.. he attempted to blow her off...( but EVA01 stops him and the story goes on)

it seems that there is something zeruel knows about Misato, but the thing is of course i didnt know whats that >.<
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:21 pm

Zeruel doesn't know shit about Misato. It probably just ignored her because there was an Evangelion to fight.
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Postby Assasinate » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:47 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Zeruel doesn't know shit about Misato. It probably just ignored her because there was an Evangelion to fight.


well maybe your right, apparently if im zeruel im going to get what i need to do.....

"ow an EVA?! i need to eat your ass first before going to mama!!"
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Postby The Fourth Evangelion » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:59 am

Just my two cents:

If Rebuild's target was to make it more understandable for a larger viewing audience, why even bother bringing in Lilith and then just ignore the dudette? That wouldn't make any sense at all right?
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:55 pm

How is Lilith being ignored?
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Postby Kendrix » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:15 pm

Anyone else notive that Rebuild Lillith has been given more explicit boobs this time? It even shows traces of 'womanly' curves/hips, and the legs sticking out of it look distinctly female - Not to mention that it's still menstruating/producing LCL- They gave the Angels a parallel to it, but the Adam-equivalent of tang is distinctly red instead of orange.... I don't think they'll make it look more female and then have it turn out to be Adam.
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Postby Azathoth » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:53 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:I don't think they'll make it look more female and then have it turn out to be Adam.


ha ha, I have beaten Reichu to pointing out that Adam is referred to as feminine although both Adam and Lilith are sexless and more or less genderless

although I should add that ADAMS appear even more sexless than NGE's Adam and have yet to be referred to as gendered at all
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:11 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:ha ha, I have beaten Reichu to pointing out that Adam is referred to as feminine although both Adam and Lilith are sexless and more or less genderless

You're trying to bait me, aren't you?

although I should add that ADAMS appear even more sexless than NGE's Adam and have yet to be referred to as gendered at all

Furthermore, "Adams" haven't even been mentioned at all outside of the 2.0 preview.
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Postby x-unknown-fail » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:54 am

View Original PostTwin Drive Sigma Aquarion wrote:So I think we can safely speculate that Misato has Lilith's soul this time around?


WAIT WHAT....! im not up to date
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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:01 pm

It was a joke, dude. He wasn't being serious.
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