Eva 2.22 (and 3.33?) BD/DVD Audio issues?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Hatsumi92
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Postby Hatsumi92 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:04 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I do find it a bit tedious that some Blu-rays or even DVDs lack a 2.0 mix all together. I'm afraid I'm in the same boat with everyone else when I say that I don't have a 6.1 set. I think one of my Sony DVD Players could fake a 2.0 mix by playing the various surround audio tracks in the stereo outputs. It was nowhere near perfect, but I could at least hear 2.22 on DVD better than on Blu-ray, which is really weird and kinda sucks when you think about it.

Then again, I've been needing to upgrade from my 90's Dean Markley house speakers for quite sometime now anyway. It's more money I'm not willing to spend just yet.

I think an appropriate fix for someone not willing to spend the extra money in a home theater surround sound system (like me) would be to see if there's a program on the internet that could fake a 2.0 mix, kinda like my Sony DVD Player could. I'll dig around and post something when (if) I find it.


Yeah it is a bit unfortunate for those who do not have this home cinema like set up, but I think the assumption manufacturers, directors and creators are operating under is that DVD is for casual audiences who do not have this kind of set up, and Blu-ray is for hardcore video and audio people who want the "true" experience of the film. While I don't personally agree with this line of thinking if that certainly is the case, I suppose I can understand where they're coming from? Sometimes ones passion for film doesn't equate to money, surprising, right? Not everyone can afford these home theatre set ups and as Blu-ray continues to take over DVD we're getting issues like this thread where people are just confused about audio channels.

Hell, just today I've seen someone here confused about aspect ratios and letterboxing. Some people genuinely just do not know how to handle these kinda "techy" situations and I feel like the film industry has failed to optimize for these lesser experienced people in regards to audio and video. Some people just don't know, or cannot afford, the "true" experience.

I think in terms of Evangelion 3.0 people are going to be completely god damn confused in many levels be it for better or for worse and unoptimized audio is just another layer of "oh I can't deal with this right now" if you know what I mean. 3.0 is an exhausting damn movie.

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Postby Kozar927 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:08 pm

does anyone know if this surround setup can be used on my 50" LED or is it only for PCs? Because it was more expensive then my TV one and I wanna switch them if I can

SPOILER: Show
Image[/img]

Sorry for horrible pic size. Scroll horizontally

EDIT: I dont think I took a pic of what people need to see to answer the question. Thats the back of my woofer. Ill photo what ever you need to see.

EDIT again: Its also very old lol. Gawd I suck
Last edited by Kozar927 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:10 pm

View Original PostHatsumi92 wrote:Yeah it is a bit unfortunate for those who do not have this home cinema like set up, but I think the assumption manufacturers, directors and creators are operating under is that DVD is for casual audiences who do not have this kind of set up, and Blu-ray is for hardcore video and audio people who want the "true" experience of the film. While I don't personally agree with this line of thinking if that certainly is the case, I suppose I can understand where they're coming from? Sometimes ones passion for film doesn't equate to money, surprising, right? Not everyone can afford these home theatre set ups and as Blu-ray continues to take over DVD we're getting issues like this thread where people are just confused about audio channels.

Tell me about it. I've had jobs in film, and my love for it doesn't mean I can afford everything that goes with it. So far I've been compensating by just turning everything up louder. Sure, it's become "The characters are yelling at me, the explosion are deafening, but I can at least hear Beethoven's 9th!"... but that's all I can do right now.

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Postby Jinroh » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:13 pm

View Original PostHatsumi92 wrote:Hell, just today I've seen someone here confused about aspect ratios and letterboxing.

Talking about that, it really sucks the movie isn't 16/9. Those big black bars don't look good and it doesn't make the movies homogeneous.

Hell, even Avatar was converted to a real 16/9 for the BD release. There are no excuses for an animated movie...

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Postby Kozar927 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:31 pm

Hey hatsumi besides changing it to the correct audio track. Where else can I look for settings to mess around with that may make the music even louder. Can you recommend settings or a program or anything that will effect music volume?

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Postby Hatsumi92 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:40 pm

View Original PostKozar927 wrote:Hey hatsumi besides changing it to the correct audio track. Where else can I look for settings to mess around with that may make the music even louder. Can you recommend settings or a program or anything that will effect music volume?


It's often rare that music and vocal tracks are on two separate audio tracks, so I can't really recommend anything which'll boost the music over the voice acting, though there are programs online which allow you to do that but I've never needed to use one.

Though if you're wanting to adjust your sound, look in the TV menu to check your TV speakers, and there should be a menu button on your Blu-ray player remote. Click that and check out what audio settings you have and play around with them. If you're going to play around with audio, use a film you either really know through and through or a movie you're having audio issues with.

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Postby Kozar927 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:50 pm

View Original PostHatsumi92 wrote:It's often rare that music and vocal tracks are on two separate audio tracks, so I can't really recommend anything which'll boost the music over the voice acting, though there are programs online which allow you to do that but I've never needed to use one.

Though if you're wanting to adjust your sound, look in the TV menu to check your TV speakers, and there should be a menu button on your Blu-ray player remote. Click that and check out what audio settings you have and play around with them. If you're going to play around with audio, use a film you either really know through and through or a movie you're having audio issues with.


Ok cool thanks

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:50 pm

If you can't afford a grand home theater get a great pair of headphones.

I used (& occasionally still do use when I don't want to disrupt roommates) this pair of Audio Technica headphones for years & the sound quality is excellent! Make sure you can plug it into the back of your TV - the wire is very lengthy - & you're good to go! It's a great supplement until you can afford an expensive cinema set up.

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Technica-ATH-AD700-Open-air-Audiophile-Headphones/dp/B000CMS0XU/ref=sr_1_3?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1366764474&sr=1-3&keywords=Audio+Technica[/url]

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Postby Kozar927 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:52 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:If you can't afford a grand home theater get a great pair of headphones.

I used (& occasionally still do use when I don't want to disrupt roommates) this pair of Audio Technica headphones for years & the sound quality is excellent! Make sure you can plug it into the back of your TV - the wire is very lengthy - & you're good to go! It's a great supplement until you can afford an expensive cinema set up.

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Technica-ATH-AD700-Open-air-Audiophile-Headphones/dp/B000CMS0XU/ref=sr_1_3?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1366764474&sr=1-3&keywords=Audio+Technica[/url]


Looking for solutions for when I watch it tonight with my girlfriend. Headphones wont work but thanks anyways. Honestly after the first fix was found in this thread for the music its not really that bad at all any more. I was just seeing if I could push it a little further.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:54 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:If you can't afford a grand home theater get a great pair of headphones.

I used (& occasionally still do use when I don't want to disrupt roommates) this pair of Audio Technica headphones for years & the sound quality is excellent! Make sure you can plug it into the back of your TV - the wire is very lengthy - & you're good to go! It's a great supplement until you can afford an expensive cinema set up.

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Technica-ATH-AD700-Open-air-Audiophile-Headphones/dp/B000CMS0XU/ref=sr_1_3?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1366764474&sr=1-3&keywords=Audio+Technica[/url]

Need a pair. THanks for the post! You're a genius!

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Postby neurasthenie » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:10 pm

Hello!

Found this Forum while I was looking for sound issues with the Eva 3 rip I downloaded and it seems that here are some people with real clue. :-)

I'm using the UTW-THORA rip/sub (1080p,x264,flac) on VLC (2.0.6) with my Sennheiser headphones (Stereo) and the sound mastering seems totally awkward. Sound effects and voices are far too loud while the gorgeous OST barely shines out (love it when the music really strikes out but this is far away from it - seems like the music was turned down). If I turn the volume up on a level on which the music shines, the sound effects nearly crush my ears.

Is it just this rip or is there something I can do about it? Didn't experience that problem with Eva 1 und 2.

...and sorry for my broken English. ^^'

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Postby Hatsumi92 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:59 am

View Original Postneurasthenie wrote:Hello!

Found this Forum while I was looking for sound issues with the Eva 3 rip I downloaded and it seems that here are some people with real clue. :-)

I'm using the UTW-THORA rip/sub (1080p,x264,flac) on VLC (2.0.6) with my Sennheiser headphones (Stereo) and the sound mastering seems totally awkward. Sound effects and voices are far too loud while the gorgeous OST barely shines out (love it when the music really strikes out but this is far away from it - seems like the music was turned down). If I turn the volume up on a level on which the music shines, the sound effects nearly crush my ears.

Is it just this rip or is there something I can do about it? Didn't experience that problem with Eva 1 und 2.

...and sorry for my broken English. ^^'


Change the audio to 5.1 Surround but with 2 channel audio. The BD has this feature as I used it in an instance of testing it without my surround system set up so if the UTW rip has that audio feature just set it to that and you should be good.

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Postby alexprevity » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:00 am

Hey guys! I watched UTW-THORA's 3.33 yesterday, and I also noticed the weird mix relation between dialog/SFX and the music. I tested it with VLC and MPlayer and the issue was the same. It could be an error with how it is being downmixed (I know that there are a few different methods). I am going to extract the audio today and drop it into Pro Tools to analyze the mix. I will also play it back on a few different surround systems here to try and locate the issue for you guys! My guess is that the center channel is too hot, but I'll post some detailed findings in a little while.

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Postby neurasthenie » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:25 am

View Original PostHatsumi92 wrote:Change the audio to 5.1 Surround but with 2 channel audio. The BD has this feature as I used it in an instance of testing it without my surround system set up so if the UTW rip has that audio feature just set it to that and you should be good.


If I set audio to 5.1 I can't set any channels? Can only choose between 5.1, 2 front 2 rear, stereo and mono. Changing it to 5.1 makes it a little bit better but the voice and SFX are still too dominant while the music is far too silent und violently dominated by the SFX. Maybe it's on purpose but then I would be really disappointed because I love the strong music at Eva 2 which really bursts out and stands clearly obove the SFX. Here it's more subtle and not so epic while the SFX crush my ears.

Tried it with MPC and VLC.

View Original Postalexprevity wrote:Hey guys! I watched UTW-THORA's 3.33 yesterday, and I also noticed the weird mix relation between dialog/SFX and the music. I tested it with VLC and MPlayer and the issue was the same. It could be an error with how it is being downmixed (I know that there are a few different methods). I am going to extract the audio today and drop it into Pro Tools to analyze the mix. I will also play it back on a few different surround systems here to try and locate the issue for you guys! My guess is that the center channel is too hot, but I'll post some detailed findings in a little while.


That would be also my assumption that there is something wrong with the UTW-THORAs release.
Will wait for another HQ release, because the weird mix relation ruins the whole experience for me...hope it's only this release and not on purpose.
Last edited by neurasthenie on Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby riffraff11235 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:39 am

Has there been any kind of consensus as to which version (if any) has the best audio? It seems like everyone's been having this issue, so couldn't it be that this is the way Anno and Co. wanted the movie to sound?
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Postby DemonSpade » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:53 pm

View Original Postriffraff11235 wrote:Has there been any kind of consensus as to which version (if any) has the best audio? It seems like everyone's been having this issue, so couldn't it be that this is the way Anno and Co. wanted the movie to sound?


No. The sound just is mixed in a way that makes the music way too quiet when it's output by 2.0 systems . I guess whoever was responsible thought that most people have a 5.1 or whatever system by now

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Postby alexprevity » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:04 pm

Hey! I ripped the audio from the UTW release and looked it over. Nothing has been changed! Plus, there's really not a way to accidentally turn the music down or something like that, it's practically impossible. The audio is all intact! The issue lies with the way the film was mixed for release. The mix may have changed from 3.0 to 3.33. Traditionally, the audio mix would have been LESS dynamic rather than more. However, those of you who were having issues; did you watch this in stereo? The music appears to be quite a bit louder when listening to it in surround, and here's why: when the DVD/BD player or computer downmixes surround to stereo, it turns the center/surround down -3dB and fold them into the correct channels (the LFE is sometimes included as well). After looking at the audio for each individual channel, I found that the surrounds contained mostly music (albeit with a more "wet" treatment). Most of the loud effects that trumped over the music were in the LCR channels. With two speakers behind you dedicated almost just music, it gives the mix more room to breathe and allows you to hear the score beside everything else going on. So when I downmixed it stereo, it turned the surrounds down and allowed the music to be masked by all of the sound effects. All in all, it's on their end, not ours. I noticed this phenomenon with the EoE mix as well. It may be a stylistic thing (damn you, Anno!), or maybe a lack of consideration for how the mix would sound on other systems.

Sorry for the essay!

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Postby riffraff11235 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:30 pm

@alexprevity Is there any way to alleviate this issue while using a stereo system, like changing settings on my media player? I don't have surround sound in my room, unfortunately....
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Postby alexprevity » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:40 pm

View Original Postriffraff11235 wrote:@alexprevity Is there any way to alleviate this issue while using a stereo system, like changing settings on my media player? I don't have surround sound in my room, unfortunately....


It honestly depends on your computer's audio system or driver! I don't know of a way to mix the individual channels from a surround source. However, I am definitely considering cutting and mixing the music from the OST so it's at a nicer level! I would just need to know a high demand for it before I put in all of that work. I could do the same with 2.22 as well.

Alternatively, you could extract the audio files from the MKV, mix them down yourself in Audacity with the surrounds hotter, make your own stereo audio track and mux it back into the MKV file!

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:47 pm

Both my DVD player and my BD player have a selection for two methods of down-mixing to two channels (stereo and Dolby surround). It may be that changing that might alter the perceived mix (no promises!).
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