Kyoko's Death And Rebirth

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

An interesting point was brought up by sachiel in another thread.

I'm not sure if this has been said already..., but Asuka found out she was going to be a pilot, and -then- found her mother dead.
I think Kyoko's death was intentional, as was Yui's.

The currently accepted wisdom is that Kyoko's soul was either absorbed or bound to Unit-02 during a contact experiment, after which Kyoko went mad, as a result of this combined with ongoing personal difficulties. But there have always been problems with this interpretation, namely how Kyoko survived without a soul etc.

The points sachiel mentions are indeed significant. Asuka was informed of her candidacy, and then found her mother dead.
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]
Simple coincidence? How convienient then that Kyoko should choose this precise time to commit suicide. Or was she pushed? Murdered? But then why leave the body for Asuka to find it? If her soul was within Unit-02, why kill her? If not, why leave the soul within the corpse instead of immediately transferring it?

Let's look again at this incident, with an eye to sachiel's theory that Kyoko's death was intentional, and in some way similar to Yui's.

[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]
We know what caused Kyoko to go insane. It was as a result of a contact experiment, most likely with Unit-02.

Man : Fiction becomes reality.
Man : What a fate. The experimenter herself was the guinea pig.
Man : So, you think that the contact experiment was the immediate
cause?
Man : The mental breakdown... Was that a result of the contact?
Man : It's too cruel. She committed suicide, leaving behind such a
young girl.
Man : Hmm, perhaps. I don't think that it was the only cause.

We see from the dialouge that there were other contributing factors, which we can deduce as Kyoko's personal difficulties at home. Her poor relationship with her daughter, and her cold husband, who may have been engaged in extra marital affairs, have contributed to her mental illness.

But it is clear that it was her contact experiment with the Eva that affected Kyoko's mind so heavily. It is currently accepted that Kyoko somehow lost her soul to Unit-02 during the contact, and this is what drove her mad. There are problems with this however. For a moment, let us assume that Kyoko did not lose her soul, or have her soul affected in any way from this contact experiment.

But then what caused her breakdown? Do we need something as dramatic as the loss of her soul? Probably not. Consider this snippet from episode #02
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]

Ritsuko: Shinji-kun has recovered consciousness.
Misato: How is he?
Ritsuko: No external wounds, but his memory is somewhat confused.
Misato: Can't be... Is it mental contamination?

Looking carefully at Misato's lines, we can she that she's concerned that Shinji's contact with Eva may have resulted in this mysterious 'mental contamination'. So worried in fact that she overreacts to Ritsuko's remark about Shinji's simple confusion. It's clear then, that Misato has been briefed on the possibility of the pilot's contact with the Eva having harmful effects, and has been worrying over them. She's been waiting for news to this effect.

'Mental Contamination'. What is it, and why would it be playing on Misato's mind so? Eva piloting is likely fraught with many dangers, the long list of which Misato is probably aquainted with. Why is 'mental contamination' of such concern to her? Perhaps it is because unlike other largely theorised mishaps, (for we must remember that Unit-01's activation is proably the first successful activation in ten years), 'mental contamination' may be the one adverse effect of Eva synchronisation that has been well documented.

Perhaps it is this 'mental contamination' that Kyoko suffered from. Some kind of huge feedback during the contact with the Eva that literally fried the neurons in her head, driving her mad. We need no soul loss or otherwise here. Simple mental overload from contact might fit the bill better.

This fits Misato's reaction as well? We know that Misato has been well briefed on the morbid details of Kyoko's sorry tale. Episode #10:

Asuka: You know, don't you, about me?
Misato: Well, that's my business.
Don't worry. It happened a long time ago.

With the tragic details of Kyoko's madness and suicide, all resulting from her contact with the Eva, we can clearly see why 'mental contamination' would be foremost on the list of Misato's concerns. Thoughts of a now deranged Shinji were likely swimming about in her mind.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

So let us assume then, that Kyoko's madness was as a result of this 'Mental Contamination', and from most likely Unit-02. She did not lose her soul, or a piece of it, but simply went mad from the psychic contact with the Eva. Now let's look again at her suicide.

[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]
Again, Asuka is informed of her candidacy as a pilot , then finds Kyoko dead. This must be more than co-incidence.

Looking back on Asuka's thoughts on all this. From episode #25:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]

Asuka: At that time, Mom was hung from the ceiling.
She looked very happy.

She looked happy. So it seems Kyoko embraced her 'death' gladly. Why? Could it be as sachiel suggests, that Kyoko went intentionally into the Eva. Did she kill herself, knowing that she would be inbued within Unit-02, the Evangelion she had briefly synched with before? Did she know that Asuka, as her child, would then be Unit-02's sole pilot?

I would propose that yes, she did know. And like Yui, went willingly into the Eva. Consider that in the depths of her madness, Kyoko doted ravingly on the small doll, calling it after her daughter.

Woman : She talks to the doll, thinking that it's her beloved
daughter.
Man : She might feel responsible, in her own way.
Man : She devoted her whole life to research, and did not spend the
time to take care of her own daughter.

We are told here by none other than Kyoko's husband that even in her madness, Kyoko still regretted her lost relationship with Asuka. Hence her doting on the doll. In her lunacy she sought to give the doll the affection she had neglected to give to Asuka. But it is unlikely the delusional nepenthe that was the doll could really have lasted. Kyoko no doubt retained her guilt and remourse for abandoning Asuka. We are shown Asuka visiting the hospital, and she presumably did this enough to want to go there to inform her mother of her selection. Perhaps Kyoko had boughts of sanity from time to time?



So if Kyoko still held remourse, and a subconscious desire to be with her real daughter, then, if she were offered the chance, might she not have enough clarity remaining to see that this was her best possible chance to be with and protect Asuka? If men in black came calling to her hospital room, at the same time they came to Asuka, proposing Kyoko's candidacy as the Eva's resident soul, might not Kyoko have the wit left to accept their bargain? Her eternal soul, if you will, for the chance to be the mother to Asuka she could never be in life. Or perhaps she even proposed it herself?

In either case, Nerv obtain a willing soul for Unit-02, far better than an unwilling or unwitting resident. Remember, unlike Unit-00, Unit-02 never rejects the primary pilot. Just like Unit-01. And we all know that the soul in Unit-01, Yui, was an all too willing participant. And so Nerv recieves its most placid Evangelion, and Kyoko is allowed to be with her daughter again.

And the suicide? Kyoko's madness returning perhaps? In her eagerness to complete the deal she took her own life. Or perhaps followed the hinted suggestions of the men who came with their proposals. Or maybe she forced Nerv's hand. They may have never intended to imbue her so soon, simply placing herself and Asuka on a waiting list of possible candidate pairs. But by her sudden death, she would force them to either abandon their most promising candidate, or imbue her immediately in Unit-02, thus steadfastly sealing the deal.

And so we have here, not Kyoko the unhappy lunatic, grinning madly in death and thrust by happenstance into Unit-02. Instead we have Kyoko entering into Unit-02, like Yui, willingly and consciously, and the smile on her face was one of calm satisfaction, knowing that she would have another chance to make ammends.
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]

And that is what brings Asuka back from the edge of despair. Not simply the realisation that Kyoko was there, in Unit-02. But that Kyoko wanted to be there. Kyoko chose to be there, and all along was watching over her daughter. Hence Asuka's words:

Asuka (thinking):Mama... Mama! I understand now... The meaning of the AT Field.
Always protecting me! Always watching over me!
Asuka (speaking): Always... always together! Mama!

Asuka realises that not only was her mother there, but that her mother was there by her own intent, to be together with her daughter, and so has made ammends for all. That is Asuka's moment of revelation, before the end.

So. What's it to be. Kyoko the Unwitting? Or Kyoko the Willing? A la Yui if you will?

Your thoughts?

[sachiel]

o_o

Well said. Better than I would've put it. XD

[Oblivious]

OMF's first post.

I agree with the main point there about what Misato was worried about. If nothing else, this serves as an excellent insight into Misato's motives.

However, I believe someone will have to take the side of the opposition, or there will be no fun. I'll get to the rest when I get home... but first I shall jot down a few thoughts.

Firstly, there was definitely a difference in the processes went through by both Yui and Kyoko that landed their Evas with a soul. One woman stayed, albeit insane, the other was completely absorbed. Barring differences in the quality of equipment and personnel at NERV Germany and Japan, there had to be a difference in the pilot's state of mind.

Why do I say this?

When Eva 01 goes berserk during Shinji's battle with Zeruel, we are treated to inviting calls from unclothed apparitions of Misato, Asuka and Rei, which can be summarised into: "It's too difficult right? Come be merry with us..."

Why would they have to do this? Why was it Shinji was spat out the moment he chose to make an exit? Even when the retrieval experiment failed. Ritsuko even says: "Don't you want to come back...?"

The point I am trying to make is that since the state of mind of the pilot plays a big factor on whether or not you are successfully absorbed, and that Kyoko turned out different from Yui, there was a difference.

My suggestion is: One wholehearted went, the other did not.

Aside: 'Anywhere can be heaven' hmmm? Yui seriously pushed this phrase to its limit... more than once come to think of it.

She looked happy. So it seems Kyoko embraced her 'death' gladly. Why? Could it be as sachiel suggests, that Kyoko went intentionally into the Eva. Did she kill herself, knowing that she would be inbued within Unit-02, the Evangelion she had briefly synched with before? Did she know that Asuka, as her child, would then be Unit-02's sole pilot?

Perhaps. The senario you depicted about the men in black coming to her and her soul travelling from her body at the time of her death and seating itself within the Evangelion is possible. However, I wish to suggest a more down to earth possibility.

She was in a deep state of psychosis. It was unbearably painful. I seem to remember a scene in which she was lamenting about her husband leaving her, and wished to die along with Asuka. Her Destrado was off the scale.

http://destrado.biography.ms/

I would propose that it was the lack of a soul that triggered massive surges of destrado within her.

Same with the MP Evas. Besides, if they could use their A.T fields to fly, there should have been nothing stopping them from using them defensively like every other being in the show that possessed an A.T field. All they had was their A^2.T fields.

Aside II: I believe the Mathematician's reasoning is just peachy other than what I have touched on, so I shall not go into it.

Now then. How shall we explain why Kyoko's body remained? I warn you though, my explanation may be just as fanciful.

It gets kind of deep here, so take your time to chew on the words:

http://www.fanfiction.net/dictionary.php?word=ego&pop=0

http://www.fanfiction.net/dictionary.php?word=soul&pop=0

The more you think of it, the more apparent it becomes that the Soul and the Ego are two different things. The Ego being the physical, and the Soul being the nonphysical. The Ego is contructed based on what you come in contact with, while the Soul is eternal, perfect and unchanging.

Many people choose to ignore the whisperings of their Soul and construct their own Ego, unaware that they are in essense, perfect. This is why children are so wonderful; they have not constructed a fully functioning Ego yet.

My proposal here is; that Kyoko's Soul and Ego were in conflict, resulting in her Soul leaving her body, without which there would be no Ego.

Why would they be in conflict? There could be many reasons, however we can see that Yui did not have this conflict. If Reichu is to be believed, Shin Seki and I do, she desired with both her Ego and Soul to be one with the Eva.

Yui is an example of a person who I believe is definitely in contact with her Soul. For many reasons I believe Reichu would be able to elaborate on far better than I can.

Aside III: Since Rei has part of Yui in her, how bad can she be? :o

Well that concludes my two gil. Now... to Vana'Diel!

[Ryo]

OMF posted a (somewhat) plausible theory? :shock:

The end is coming!! Run! Run for your lifes!

[the_seventh_child]

Great thoughts! Congratulations both to you OMF abd sachiel..You really cleared up some things..

[ice reaper]

OMF's first post.

I agree with the main point there about what Misato was worried about. If nothing else, this serves as an excellent insight into Misato's motives.

However, I believe someone will have to take the side of the opposition, or there will be no fun. I'll get to the rest when I get home... but first I shall jot down a few thoughts.

Firstly, there was definitely a difference in the processes went through by both Yui and Kyoko that landed their Evas with a soul. One woman stayed, albeit insane, the other was completely absorbed. Barring differences in the quality of equipment and personnel at NERV Germany and Japan, there had to be a difference in the pilot's state of mind.

Why do I say this?

When Eva 01 goes berserk during Shinji's battle with Zeruel, we are treated to inviting calls from unclothed apparitions of Misato, Asuka and Rei, which can be summarised into: "It's too difficult right? Come be merry with us..."

Why would they have to do this? Why was it Shinji was spat out the moment he chose to make an exit? Even when the retrieval experiment failed. Ritsuko even says: "Don't you want to come back...?"

The point I am trying to make is that since the state of mind of the pilot plays a big factor on whether or not you are successfully absorbed, and that Kyoko turned out different from Yui, there was a difference.

My suggestion is: One wholehearted went, the other did not.

Aside: 'Anywhere can be heaven' hmmm? Yui seriously pushed this phrase to its limit... more than once come to think of it.

She looked happy. So it seems Kyoko embraced her 'death' gladly. Why? Could it be as sachiel suggests, that Kyoko went intentionally into the Eva. Did she kill herself, knowing that she would be inbued within Unit-02, the Evangelion she had briefly synched with before? Did she know that Asuka, as her child, would then be Unit-02's sole pilot?

Perhaps. The senario you depicted about the men in black coming to her and her soul travelling from her body at the time of her death and seating itself within the Evangelion is possible. However, I wish to suggest a more down to earth possibility.

She was in a deep state of psychosis. It was unbearably painful. I seem to remember a scene in which she was lamenting about her husband leaving her, and wished to die along with Asuka. Her Destrado was off the scale.

http://destrado.biography.ms/

I would propose that it was the lack of a soul that triggered massive surges of destrado within her.

Same with the MP Evas. Besides, if they could use their A.T fields to fly, there should have been nothing stopping them from using them defensively like every other being in the show that possessed an A.T field. All they had was their A^2.T fields.

Aside II: I believe the Mathematician's reasoning is just peachy other than what I have touched on, so I shall not go into it.

Now then. How shall we explain why Kyoko's body remained? I warn you though, my explanation may be just as fanciful.

It gets kind of deep here, so take your time to chew on the words:

http://www.fanfiction.net/dictionary.php?word=ego&pop=0

http://www.fanfiction.net/dictionary.php?word=soul&pop=0

The more you think of it, the more apparent it becomes that the Soul and the Ego are two different things. The Ego being the physical, and the Soul being the nonphysical. The Ego is contructed based on what you come in contact with, while the Soul is eternal, perfect and unchanging.

Many people choose to ignore the whisperings of their Soul and construct their own Ego, unaware that they are in essense, perfect. This is why children are so wonderful; they have not constructed a fully functioning Ego yet.

My proposal here is; that Kyoko's Soul and Ego were in conflict, resulting in her Soul leaving her body, without which there would be no Ego.

Why would they be in conflict? There could be many reasons, however we can see that Yui did not have this conflict. If Reichu is to be believed, Shin Seki and I do, she desired with both her Ego and Soul to be one with the Eva.

Yui is an example of a person who I believe is definitely in contact with her Soul. For many reasons I believe Reichu would be able to elaborate on far better than I can.

Aside III: Since Rei has part of Yui in her, how bad can she be? :o

Well that concludes my two gil. Now... to Vana'Diel!

just some brief notes huh? can't wait to see when you're back home

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

When Eva 01 goes berserk during Shinji's battle with Zeruel, we are treated to inviting calls from unclothed apparitions of Misato, Asuka and Rei, which can be summarised into: "It's too difficult right? Come be merry with us..."

Given that Shinji was already absorbed into Unit-01 at the time, it's hard to say how much of this was a product of his own subconscious desires, and how much was coming from the Eva. It's hard to compare this scene to the other pilots relationships with their Evas. The closest comparision we have is Kyoko's voice over while Unit-02 was submerged in the lake. That really should be analysised in this respect. Do the souls wish the pilots to "join" with them within the Eva?

Perhaps. The senario you depicted about the men in black coming to her and her soul travelling from her body at the time of her death and seating itself within the Evangelion is possible. However, I wish to suggest a more down to earth possibility.

This was not quite what I had in mind. There is sufficient evidence within the series to support the interpretation that the soul remains resident within the body for some time after death, and that Nerv must use the corpse to transfer the soul to a new "vessel", in this case Unit-02. A soul transfer process a little more meta-physical than mystical.

Rather I meant to suggest, that while she was alive, Kyoko was as yet unbound to Unit-02 in any way, save perhaps my her earlier contact. If indeed it was Unit-02 she made contact with! There was no loss of soul. Her madness was as a result of this 'mental contamination', lunacy resulting from an overload of some kind when synching with the Eva.

Her "soul" is in her body all the time. We're likely dealing with fairly mudane psychosis here, albiet one caused by extraordinary circumstances. One of the advantages of this, apart from how it fits into the above theory, is that it fixes the rather strange interpretation that Kyoko's souls was somehow sucked into Unit-02, and yet she went on living some kind of half life. This never really sat very smoothly in place. Perhaps now we no long need this interpretation.


Kyoko going willingly into Unit-02, perhaps even forcing Nerv/Seele's hand is a rather nice interpretation. It draws parallels with Yui's imbuement in Unit-01, and establishes another parallel between Asuka and Shinji in this regard as well. In this sense, Unit-00, rather than Unit-01, become the odd man out in the pack, and its psychosis and rejection of its primary pilot makes more sense. Is it the only Unit whose presence was an unwilling or unwitting occupant?

[Magami no D00M]

I dissagree on some parts of the resoning.

Again, Asuka is informed of her candidacy as a pilot , then finds Kyoko dead. This must be more than co-incidence.

Strange this isn't the case in the manga, not surprised. :?

Looking back on Asuka's thoughts on all this. From episode #25:
[
She looked very happy.[/i]

She has a faux soul. She was mentally unstable. She was happy to have killed herself and taken her "daughter" with That's why Asuka bothers to mention the fact of Kyouko's expression, it hurt her deeply.

She looked happy. So it seems Kyoko embraced her 'death' gladly. Why? Could it be as sachiel suggests, that Kyoko went intentionally into the Eva. Did she kill herself, knowing that she would be inbued within Unit-02, the Evangelion she had briefly synched with before?

Kyouko's real soul was already in Eva, and the copy inside Kyouko. So, I don't see how that makes sense. Plus remmeber-she thinks her daughter is a doll. The only intellgent thing Kyouko seems to understand beside maternal instincts with a doll she thinks is Asuka(and Asuka a strange "big" girl)was the fact that her husband didn't care anymore.

I would propose that yes, she did know. And like Yui, went willingly into the Eva.

The soul copy doesn't go anywhere, like I said, the real one's already within the Eva.

Consider that in the depths of her madness, Kyoko doted ravingly on the small doll, calling it after her daughter.

Woman : She talks to the doll, thinking that it's her beloved
daughter.
Man : She might feel responsible, in her own way.
Man : She devoted her whole life to research, and did not spend the
time to take care of her own daughter.

We are told here by none other than Kyoko's husband that even in her madness, Kyoko still regretted her lost relationship with Asuka. Hence her doting on the doll. In her lunacy she sought to give the doll the affection she had neglected to give to Asuka. But it is unlikely the delusional nepenthe that was the doll could really have lasted. Kyoko no doubt retained her guilt and remourse for abandoning Asuka. We are shown Asuka visiting the hospital, and she presumably did this enough to want to go there to inform her mother of her selection. Perhaps Kyoko had boughts of sanity from time to time?

While we can speculate, we really don't know enough of her former personality to see how much regression actually took place as a result of the experiment. We can't know for sure.

In either case, Nerv obtain a willing soul for Unit-02, far better than an unwilling or unwitting resident. Remember, unlike Unit-00, Unit-02 never rejects the primary pilot. Just like Unit-01. And we all know that the soul in Unit-01, Yui, was an all too willing participant. And so Nerv recieves its most placid Evangelion, and Kyoko is allowed to be with her daughter again.

Most likly because the real Kyouko loves Asuka, and was happy But like I said, we really can't know It was a different case for Yui. Shinji had probablly been named the first children before Asuka, once the soul was within Eva-01. Then, the Nerv in Germany somehow new this, and designated Asuka as one. For some reason, she knew of her status. It's unliky they picked her before the contact experiment, but after, when the real soul went into Eva-02.
Now here's when I could agree with you:
Kyouko might have just guessed that Asuka would be pilot, and if she went in Eva instead of the copy soul, she could be with Asuka when she had neglected her before. A la Yui. But didn't she realized what effects the copy soul would have on her former body? As far as she's concerned, she doesn't know. But then, we ourselves don't know what she knew. And that's a shame.
The other possiblity is that it really was a mistake, and the real soul bonded with Eva in error.
Even unwillingly placed, I don't Rei's circumstance was much different, she dies in vain, and this clone of her was "piloting her" How absurd.
So it's up in the air, as far as I'm concerned, in terms of possiblities. Maybe I'll re-watch 22...


And so we have here, not Kyoko the unhappy lunatic, grinning madly in death and thrust by happenstance into Unit-02. Instead we have Kyoko entering into Unit-02, like Yui, willingly and consciously, and the smile on her face was one of calm satisfaction, knowing that she would have another chance to make ammends.[/quote]
She would have anyways, be it a happy mistake or her own doing. We don't have hints of this like we do with Yui.

And that is what brings Asuka back from the edge of despair. Not simply the realisation that Kyoko was there, in Unit-02. But that Kyoko wanted to be there. Kyoko chose to be there, and all along was watching over her daughter. Hence Asuka's words:

Asuka (thinking):Mama... Mama! I understand now... The meaning of the AT Field.
Always protecting me! Always watching over me!
Asuka (speaking): Always... always together! Mama!

Asuka realises that not only was her mother there, but that her mother was there by her own intent, to be together with her daughter, and so has made ammends for all.

I don't see how you draw the conclusion that Asuka knew/cared that she was there of her own free will. Would it have matterd, to be honest? She gets to see her "dead" mother back to life, this time loving with open arms. I'd be happy too. ;)
Good topic, BTW.

[sachiel]

Is it the only Unit whose presence was an unwilling or unwitting occupant?

Of course, because Rei has no mother.

They make a point in the series of saying that the first person you separate yourself from is your mother. "Mother is the first other."

Rei...isn't quite as human as the other pilots, and the only reason she's able to synch well with the EVA at all is probably because Asuka and Shinji have mixed thoughts about piloting EVA, and when inside it tend to have unhappy memories of their pasts, and sometimes even, their mothers.

Whereas Rei has no memory of the soul inside her EVA, she has no opposing thoughts, and has complete confidence in Gendo. She really doesn't have much of a personality at all.

Though...there are certain scenes in the series where she's very protective of Shinji in a way which could be mistaken for love, but is obviously more of a motherly figure. But I won't get into that. o__o;

-is sort of straying off the subject-


Anyway.



@Magami - I don't see how a "copy soul" makes sense. Where'd that come from? (I'll write a bit more reasoning behind this later, don't have the time right now.)

[sadsadshinji]

Two problems from skimming through:
The "Kyoto was Happy!!"
She was STARK RAVING MAD! If you want to count the number of suicides where people are smiling, you might find more than you expected. Thus, this cannot really be used as evidence that she had entered the Eva of her own will. When she was in a mental state like that, perhaps she just saw death as the only option.

Two: the "Asuka realizes this too"
Actually, I think Asuka just realizes that her mom's soul in present in the eva. There is no indication that Kyoto says something about being there willingly. After all, if you got stuck in a giant body and couldn't escape for something of 10 or so years, what the heck would you do?

I think Kyoto's timely death is also part convenience- it brings Asuka down from her highest point down to the low of lows, and explains her later behavior.

[Magami no D00M]

Two problems from skimming through:
The "Kyoto was Happy!!"
She was STARK RAVING MAD! If you want to count the number of suicides where people are smiling, you might find more than you expected. Thus, this cannot really be used as evidence that she had entered the Eva of her own will. When she was in a mental state like that, perhaps she just saw death as the only option.

Two: the "Asuka realizes this too"
Actually, I think Asuka just realizes that her mom's soul in present in the eva. There is no indication that Kyoto says something about being there willingly. After all, if you got stuck in a giant body and couldn't escape for something of 10 or so years, what the heck would you do?

I think Kyoto's timely death is also part convenience- it brings Asuka down from her highest point down to the low of lows, and explains her later behavior.

Exactly. :)
And as for soul copying and imprinting, here's what Reichu once said to me in an old AN thread, concerning Eva-00:

With Rei I, the theory goes, the 'imprint' went in reverse -- EVA-00 got the cheap imitation, and Rei 1 kept the real thing, which was then passed to Rei 2 and 3. This thus serves to explain why EVA-00 was "batshit crazy".

Soul Copy-mental instablity A copy of a soul isn't as able to synch as well with the mind, my guess is. And of course Kyouko had her soul copied and attempted to be placed in Eva-02, they say it in the show. It didn't work though, obviously, and the real soul bonded with Eva. Of Kyouko's free will? Like I said, we can't truly know, there's only so much info we have on her.

[sadsadshinji]

Well, if you really want to go into it, it would probably have to do with the uprooting of the soul that would cause many a problem.

[thewayneiac]

@OMF: This is interesting stuff, but once again you have constructed a really elaborate theory around a minimum of evidence. The chief problem with all this is that you are vastly understating the importance of Langley's extramarital affair. Not only was he having an affair, he was having it with his wife's doctor! What's more, Kyoko knew, and Asuka knew.. Here is a thread with the relevant information:

[url]http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=104577&page=11&pp=15&highlight=kyoko[/url]

Yes, it's the Shinji/Asuka thread. The relevant posts are on pages 11-13. The short version is that Reichu discovered that the script for ep. 22 already describes the doctor lady as Langley's mistress, and I realized that the sounds at the end of the scene were them getting hot and heavy. (My contribution applies only to the extended director's cut version of this scene.)

What seems to have got past you is that Anno is using one of his patented transitions here. Remember "We will make the bell ring." (cut to scene with Kaji), and "We need a new sacrifice against Ikari, one who knows the truth." (cut to scene with Ritsuko)? Well when the guy says that her mental breakdown wasn't the only cause of her suicide, we immediately cut to a scene where they show us the other reason. A scene that establishes that Herr Langley is carrying on with his wife's doctor by letting us hear them getting it on in the next room while Asuka is visiting her mother. Kyoko and Asuka couldn't help but know what was going on. This was the "other cause" that he was referring to, not a visit from M.I.B.s or a desire to surrender her soul, which she had in all probability already surrendered. Would they have picked Asuka if they didn't already have Kyoko's soul on ice? As has been pointed out in countless other threads the notion that losing your soul causes insanity is a widespread ancient belief.

[Shnooks]

Ah, well, I'm gonna try to stay on topic here, while stating my opinion.

Okay, Sachiel told me about this thread earlier today (we chat a lot on the phone), and I suggested a farfetched theory. I'm not saying its entirely correct, but it's just a thought.

We learn about Kyoko's death in the point of veiw of Asuka, correct? And Asuka was young (I took the assumption of about 4 or 5) when she died. That was about 10 years ago, if I'm correct with her age.

But, what I'm getting at, is maybe, the story of her mother loosing her sanity was a story weaved by someone else surrounding her.

As a young child, you have to to admit, you're able to believe everything. I've had times in my life when I was younger, people have told me stories, and I'll swear they're real, swear they really happened, but...they were lies.

Someone might have told her that her mother was going insane, yada yada yada, and then, in reality Kyoko died. Meanwhile, she could have been twiddling around in the lab and what not.

Ah, can you put that together? I'm not saying she didn't die. I'm just saying, maybe her whole crazy thing was a story either made up by a child seeking for a way to cover up the true reason why her mother doesnt take care of her.

Ahhh, Its just a theory.

[AchtungAffen]

Great post! The story about Kyouko's animation of Eva-02 was one of my unresolved Eva incognitas. This sums it all pretty well.

[bp32]

And of course Kyouko had her soul copied and attempted to be placed in Eva-02, they say it in the show

Question--when do they actually say it in the show though? I always thought it was more implied than explicitly stated....

[ice reaper]

Two problems from skimming through:
The "Kyoto was Happy!!"
She was STARK RAVING MAD! If you want to count the number of suicides where people are smiling, you might find more than you expected.

that's right! i might be wrong, but i think when you've got a lack of oxygen (drowning, sufacating) Dopamine is released, which gives the person the feeling of extreme happiness. this is also where the name 'dope' comes from for the drug, because it causees the release of lots of Dopamine, too much in fact. later in life you have a lack of it and then become clinically depressed. just a little useless knowledge there for you

[sadsadshinji]

Two problems from skimming through:
The "Kyoto was Happy!!"
She was STARK RAVING MAD! If you want to count the number of suicides where people are smiling, you might find more than you expected.

that's right! i might be wrong, but i think when you've got a lack of oxygen (drowning, sufacating) Dopamine is released, which gives the person the feeling of extreme happiness. this is also where the name 'dope' comes from for the drug, because it causees the release of lots of Dopamine, too much in fact. later in life you have a lack of it and then become clinically depressed. just a little useless knowledge there for you

I think there is only a release of dopamine during strangulation for some people (there was a strangling fetish that became rather widespread for a time)...I had no idea that it was released for everyone.
And dope is probably just slang, though it does probably have to do with the massive release of dopamine in the brain in response to the cocaine. The effects, however, are usually much more immediate, resulting in withdrawl if you fail to intake the drug.

[Mr. Tines]

We learn about Kyoko's death in the point of veiw of Asuka, correct? And Asuka was young (I took the assumption of about 4 or 5) when she died. That was about 10 years ago, if I'm correct with her age.

Asuka's birthday is 4-Dec, and the most likely year is 2001, so it's likely this was before her 4th birthday.