NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:38 pm

pwhodges: When someone asks for an Watsonian explanation, don't give them the Doylist one instead, unless you're going for the whole "no fun allowed" thing.

I would assume limited time and resources. Another possibility is that the FAR determined that their souls being split seven ways was optimal for purposes of flexibility and colony establishment.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:51 pm

In this instance, any answer other than mine can be no more than fanfiction. We are not in the fanfiction forum, but in the Discussion forum, which I thought was meant to be about the actual material of the show and related stuff.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:55 pm

If someone is asking for speculation that basically amounts to fanfiction, that's their business, isn't it? If you feel the need to engage in "rumor control" regardless, it would come off better to say "we simply don't know" than give an answer that implicitly demeans a user's curiosity.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby VUX » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:56 pm

Were the FAR the first beings to possess sentience, or could others have existed?
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:37 pm

They're the First Ancestral Race, so they're certainly the only prototypical sapients in NGE that "matter". Others are possible, since the universe is enormous, but they have no effect on the story whatsoever, so whether or not they exist is beyond the point unless you plan to write about them yourself.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby VUX » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:20 pm

Could other forms of humanity exist on worlds other than Earth?
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:55 am

Sure - why not? Indeed, it's to be hoped so, as the FAR sent out more seeds than just Adam and Lilith.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby VUX » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:49 pm

Didn't i hear somewhere that being human in Evangelion dosen't mean your a Homo Sapiens?
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:31 pm

Some strange new tidbits from Rei's scenario:

- The FAR are actually from another universe. The phrasing used here is the same as in episode 16 ("I think it leads to another universe").
- Their "home" no longer exists. It's ambiguous whether "home" refers to this entire other universe or just some specific place within it. Though, since it's into the Milky Way that the FAR sent all their envoys, we can probably take a hint.....
- Lilith has the Fruit of Knowledge only because she wasn't given a choice in the matter. Apparently Adam took off without leaving any of the FoL for her. I have no idea how this is supposed to work, but I guess this explains the comment in Kaworu's ending that Adam "ate too much" of the FoL.
- Lilith intentionally pursued the White Moon so she could get the FoL.
- Lilith is instructing Rei to get the Fruit of Life and bring it back to her.

I'm kind of glad I translated this stuff later on, because right this moment I think it's pretty stupid. I don't see what's gained by having the FAR come from SOME OTHER UNIVERSE!1!11 (what's wrong with ours?) -- like, what the hell is this being invoked to explain? Something, I assume, otherwise why the hell is it there at all? With the FoL stuff, I've known about some of this for years and I figured it might play into explaining why Lilith's on Earth. It's still kind of a lame explanation, though. How exactly do you design these "fruit" things so that one of your Seeds can "overfeed" and not leave any options for the rest? That seems like some really sloppy engineering... And how does it reconcile with what the unnamed Seed in Kaworu's ending says about not yet knowing what its offspring will be? If the Seeds actually did pick a Fruit before departing, wouldn't the Seed already know what kind of life it'll be making? Lastly, the Spears don't seem good for terribly much if they couldn't prevent shit as stupid as gluttonous and vengeful Seeds. How did they decide to give those things a pass, and then decide that Adam staying awake was somehow the final straw? Pretty worthless tech if you ask me...

Old standbys like the Classified Info and the Kaworu ending are going to get their translations completely polished at some point. (CI is 25% done.) I guess somewhere down the road, I'll close these threads and just put lists of links to the new translations.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:07 am

All of that stuff sounds really, really dumb. :???: Bad fanfiction levels of dumb. None of it adds anything to the existing lore like you said, and it raises so many nonsensical questions. Is that only in Rei's scenario?
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:23 pm

I must confess this falls into so bad it's good territory.


View Original PostReichu wrote: I don't see what's gained by having the FAR come from SOME OTHER UNIVERSE!1!11 (what's wrong with ours?) -- like, what the hell is this being invoked to explain? Something, I assume, otherwise why the hell is it there at all?


This I could totally see as a they screwed up their home universe by experimenting with all the esoteric technologies they invented. Or at least everything in the general area they were in and everything else being too impractically far away to save them they resorted to those same esoteric technologies to save their legacy. I mean human hubris is a pretty big theme in the series. A bit of a stretch but these people seem generally odd anyways.

The fruit stuff is totally :hitthetable: though. Thanks Lilith.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:36 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:- The FAR are actually from another universe. The phrasing used here is the same as in episode 16 ("I think it leads to another universe").
If this were classic scientifiction from 80 years ago, where universe would have been used as shorthand for "island universe" (i.e. galaxy) it would make some kind of sense (a "what if the Arisians were actually native to Lundmark's Nebula" type of scenario) -- but as it stands this is just excessive multiplication of root causes, without much rule-of-cool to support it.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:13 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:- Lilith is instructing Rei to get the Fruit of Life and bring it back to her.


Hey, I remember chatting about this with you, back in the day :D It partially happens during Rei's Leliel sequence, with Rei 1 inside Eva-00 (and Lilith in Terminal Dogma too—during other scenes like Rei fainting in class and Lilith communicates with her) urging Rei 2 to do that.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:36 am

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Is that only in Rei's scenario?

As far as I know. Not that being only in one scenario makes any difference. If it's in the game, it's in the game.

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Hey, I remember chatting about this with you, back in the day :D It partially happens during Rei's Leliel sequence, with Rei 1 inside Eva-00 (and Lilith in Terminal Dogma too—during other scenes like Rei fainting in class and Lilith communicates with her) urging Rei 2 to do that.

This communication with Lilith is quite strange, since, while it goes along with the idea that there's a part of Lilith's soul still in her body, the C.I. says that Lilith doesn't have a soul because it's in Rei. So what's supposed to be going on? Lilith's personality continues to exist somehow, INSIDE Rei? How does this make sense with Lilith constantly beckoning Rei "return to me" -- why would Lilith perceive herself as a separate body that needs to be returned to if she is in fact inside Rei?

Perhaps I'm expecting far too much consistency from a game that can't even make sure the images and the text descriptions match. (Notable example: In the Angel ending, the text says that Rei and the Angel fuse into Lilith's face, but in the image they're merging into Lilith's chest. This was not corrected for the PSP version.)

Mr. Tines wrote:If this were classic scientifiction from 80 years ago, where universe would have been used as shorthand for "island universe" (i.e. galaxy) it would make some kind of sense (a "what if the Arisians were actually native to Lundmark's Nebula" type of scenario)

My limited Japanese Google-fu suggests that maybe they're going for multiverse theory here.

Anyone who wants to play around with this can maybe see where episode 16 fits in. As I mentioned, Lilith uses the same phrase to describe where she came from, "another universe" (betsu no uchuu), as Ritsuko did in her description of Leliel's attributes:

The ultra-thin space is supported by an inwardly-directed AT Field.
The inside is an imaginary space, called a Sea of Dirac.
I think it's probably connected to another universe.

The show strongly implies that this "other universe" is the LCL Sea. (Can link to those threads for whoever missed em.) So are we supposed to think that the FAR came from there? I'm not sure if that would be kind of cool or really fucking stupid. My heartstrings are pulled in both directions with almost equal force. How are you supposed to make any sense out of a humanoid species arising in what is, by all appearances, a bizarro fluidic spirit-realm?

Or maybe, I dunno, Ritsuko's "another universe" is completely unrelated to the LCL spouting out from under Leliel's body, though that would strain the economy of information. Alternately, the "another universe" in NGE2 isn't the same "another universe" as in episode 16, though this would again strain economy of information. So I'm not sure if it's even worth considering. I guess it depends on whether we're meant to think the FAR actually did asplode their entire universe, or if, as AEF suggests, they wrecked just enough of it that "dimension-hopping" was the only way to escape.

EDIT: Double-checking Kaworu's ending, the unnamed Seed does specifically say "knowing we would lose our home world" (故郷の星), as in, a planet. Alrighty then!

Originally this post was a bit longer, but Chrome gobbled up the end of it. I need to change my settings back to "always logged in", sigh...

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:15 am

Maybe Lilith is just misrepresenting what happened because she's a melodramatic bitch like that.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:33 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:The show strongly implies that this "other universe" is the LCL Sea. (Can link to those threads for whoever missed em.) So are we supposed to think that the FAR came from there? I'm not sure if that would be kind of cool or really fucking stupid. My heartstrings are pulled in both directions with almost equal force. How are you supposed to make any sense out of a humanoid species arising in what is, by all appearances, a bizarro fluidic spirit-realm?

Or maybe, I dunno, Ritsuko's "another universe" is completely unrelated to the LCL spouting out from under Leliel's body, though that would strain the economy of information. Alternately, the "another universe" in NGE2 isn't the same "another universe" as in episode 16, though this would again strain economy of information. So I'm not sure if it's even worth considering. I guess it depends on whether we're meant to think the FAR actually did asplode their entire universe, or if, as AEF suggests, they wrecked just enough of it that "dimension-hopping" was the only way to escape.


Well if we're going for total fanwank here it's possible the LCLness isn't the natural state but instead the result of however they fucked things up. Or both universes connect to that dimension and whatever happened to their universe was a result of screwing around with it. Cause messing with souls is totally a great idea.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:44 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:This communication with Lilith is quite strange, since, while it goes along with the idea that there's a part of Lilith's soul still in her body, the C.I. says that Lilith doesn't have a soul because it's in Rei. So what's supposed to be going on? Lilith's personality continues to exist somehow, INSIDE Rei? How does this make sense with Lilith constantly beckoning Rei "return to me" -- why would Lilith perceive herself as a separate body that needs to be returned to if she is in fact inside Rei?


When I did playthroughs of that Scenario, my assumption was maybe Lilith within Rei 1 (who in turn was within Eva-00 as NGE2 pretty much explicitly shows) was urging Rei to do Lilith's "bidding", for lack of a better term. Rei 2's Scenario in general has a lot of her struggling to be true to herself/be her own self vs giving into Lilith's demands (requests?).

You could also argue Lilith within Rei 2 is metaphysically debating with Rei—given what the CI states about Lilith and remaining fragments.

Perhaps I'm expecting far too much consistency from a game that can't even make sure the images and the text descriptions match. (Notable example: In the Angel ending, the text says that Rei and the Angel fuse into Lilith's face, but in the image they're merging into Lilith's chest. This was not corrected for the PSP version.)


Huh, I guess that was an oversight. (or maybe it's best not to dwell on a video game with some inconsistencies, as you said) I always loved that image of Rei embracing the Angel as they fuse—but that's neither here nor there.

Especially when it comes to Eva, at this stage in my fandom I'm more than happy with the simplest explanation :lol:
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby imprimatur13 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:35 am

Potentially dumb question:

The ATF is projected by the soul. This ATF is what binds the body (at least in the case of non-Lilith-descended Angels) together. So, if the Stay Puft Marshmallow Woman doesn't have a soul in her, how could she maintain her shape?
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:00 pm

It's implied at least some of Lilith's soul is still inside that body, since it welcomed Rei back when she merged with it. Probably not a lot or it could have pulled itself off the cross, but just enough to keep her in one state long enough.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:04 pm

View Original Postimprimatur13 wrote:The ATF is projected by the soul. This ATF is what binds the body (at least in the case of non-Lilith-descended Angels) together. So, if the Stay Puft Marshmallow Woman doesn't have a soul in her, how could she maintain her shape?

The Rei clones, unfinished Evas, dead Angels, Adam embryo, etc., have no trouble keeping it together without a soul.

It's also probably a misconception that regular Lilin, along with other Lilith-derived life, can't exist physically without souls inside them. For Shinji's salvage in episode 20, Ritsuko says that they will recreate his body and then fix his soul in it. Obviously this would be impossible if the body needs the soul inside it to stick together. I think it's less "the body needs the ATF" and more "the body is affected by the ATF".


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