Medium- & Transition Guide-Rei Mechanics
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Medium- & Transition Guide-Rei Mechanics
Okay, forgive me if there's a thread on this somewhere else(I looked), I know I've briefly talked about this with other people on here before, but I wanted to get a whole discussion going. FYI, I'm going to refer to whoever you saw before you died(Usually Rei) in EoE as a Harbinger.
So, Gendo, Misato, Ritsuko, the Bridge Bunnies, they all got glimpses of Harbingers as they died in EoE. Even the ones who died before 3I started. So, why didn't Asuka get one? I mean, if they had wanted to, they could've shown Rei for a split second when Asuka was getting her arm split in half, but they didn't. Does anyone have any theories as to why Asuka didn't see Rei/Another Harbinger before her brutal demise?
So, Gendo, Misato, Ritsuko, the Bridge Bunnies, they all got glimpses of Harbingers as they died in EoE. Even the ones who died before 3I started. So, why didn't Asuka get one? I mean, if they had wanted to, they could've shown Rei for a split second when Asuka was getting her arm split in half, but they didn't. Does anyone have any theories as to why Asuka didn't see Rei/Another Harbinger before her brutal demise?
Probably to keep her feelings or lack thereof for Shinji ambiguous.
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NemZ wrote:Probably to keep her feelings or lack thereof for Shinji ambiguous.
Well, at this stage of the movie, the 'personalized' harbinger wasn't around. I mean, you'd think Misato would've seen Kaji if that were the case. I don't think it would've been strange for Asuka to catch a glimpse of Rei.
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This is less a matter of Asuka not being visited by Rei, and more Asuka not being SHOWN to be visited by Rei.
(A) At the moment when Eva-02 (and presumably Asuka) die, the camera is pulled away, denying us the ability to confirm or deny any ghostly Rei appearing before Asuka in the plug. (One wouldn't appear to Eva-02/Kyoko specifically, because why should the soul of somebody Shinji doesn't know be "channeled" into the pre-3I hivemind?)
You suggest Rei should have shown up the moment the Soryus' arms split in half -- but Rei didn't instantaneously appear when Ritsuko or Misato incurred their own gruesome injuries.
(B) Asuka's harvesting at the time of 3I simply isn't shown, possibly because there aren't any remains TO show.
The question, in my mind, is, "Why didn't they show this?", as opposed to, "Why didn't Rei do this?"
BTW, remember to distinguish between the Reis that show up right before Misato and Ritsuko's death, and the ones that appear to people in order to revert them to LCL (or to simply watch them get eaten by their wives). Misato and Ritsuko are each visited twice, so we might assume that the function of each visit is different.
Is "harbinger" really the best word? (A harbinger of what?)
(A) At the moment when Eva-02 (and presumably Asuka) die, the camera is pulled away, denying us the ability to confirm or deny any ghostly Rei appearing before Asuka in the plug. (One wouldn't appear to Eva-02/Kyoko specifically, because why should the soul of somebody Shinji doesn't know be "channeled" into the pre-3I hivemind?)
You suggest Rei should have shown up the moment the Soryus' arms split in half -- but Rei didn't instantaneously appear when Ritsuko or Misato incurred their own gruesome injuries.
(B) Asuka's harvesting at the time of 3I simply isn't shown, possibly because there aren't any remains TO show.
The question, in my mind, is, "Why didn't they show this?", as opposed to, "Why didn't Rei do this?"
BTW, remember to distinguish between the Reis that show up right before Misato and Ritsuko's death, and the ones that appear to people in order to revert them to LCL (or to simply watch them get eaten by their wives). Misato and Ritsuko are each visited twice, so we might assume that the function of each visit is different.
So, Gendo, Misato, Ritsuko, the Bridge Bunnies, they all got glimpses of Harbingers as they died in EoE.
Is "harbinger" really the best word? (A harbinger of what?)
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It's a good question, really... why animate Misato getting blown into kibble but get squimish about Asuka getting a few stab wounds?
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
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Harbinger seems to fit as they were heralding the arrival of instrumentality.
I could buy that Asuka may have seen one, but we didn't get to see it, but I just find that quite strange.
Could it have something to do with that fact that while most characters saw one, obviously neither of the pilots did? If she saw one, she'd be the only pilot who did(Shinji didn't see one the way the others did).
I could buy that Asuka may have seen one, but we didn't get to see it, but I just find that quite strange.
Could it have something to do with that fact that while most characters saw one, obviously neither of the pilots did? If she saw one, she'd be the only pilot who did(Shinji didn't see one the way the others did).
What, Giant Naked Kaworu doesn't count?
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno
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Harbinger seems to fit Kaworu's role more so than the Rei's.
The ultimate fate of Asuka's bodily remains is something that EoE leaves completely unanswered. There are two main possibilities
1) Asuka's body remains in the entry plug, which is discarded along with the rest of EVA-02 in the Geofront
2) Her body is eaten by the MP-Evas along with other morsels of EVA-02. Though this would required them to crack open the entry plug and suck out the runny yoke.
Either way, Asuka's remains in a smashed entry plug or a harpies bowels are not going to make for good cinema. Ritsuko and Misato's "transition" Rei's are inserted at largely independent moments in the narrative. But in the case of Asuka, we simply have no reason to go back to look at her body. In addition, having Rei of all people inserted into Asuka's death scene would be incongruous in the extreme.
There's been some recent discussion on the EML about whether or not Asuka died at all in EoE, with the lack of transition guide taken as evidence for this. However, I would have to say that the idea of Asuka's survival would need substantially more evidence than it currently does. The lack of a transition guide does not in and of itself signify a huge amount—seeing as how we know they are not universal (i.e. the case of Aoba).
The ultimate fate of Asuka's bodily remains is something that EoE leaves completely unanswered. There are two main possibilities
1) Asuka's body remains in the entry plug, which is discarded along with the rest of EVA-02 in the Geofront
2) Her body is eaten by the MP-Evas along with other morsels of EVA-02. Though this would required them to crack open the entry plug and suck out the runny yoke.
Either way, Asuka's remains in a smashed entry plug or a harpies bowels are not going to make for good cinema. Ritsuko and Misato's "transition" Rei's are inserted at largely independent moments in the narrative. But in the case of Asuka, we simply have no reason to go back to look at her body. In addition, having Rei of all people inserted into Asuka's death scene would be incongruous in the extreme.
There's been some recent discussion on the EML about whether or not Asuka died at all in EoE, with the lack of transition guide taken as evidence for this. However, I would have to say that the idea of Asuka's survival would need substantially more evidence than it currently does. The lack of a transition guide does not in and of itself signify a huge amount—seeing as how we know they are not universal (i.e. the case of Aoba).
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NemZ wrote:What, Giant Naked Kaworu doesn't count?
Isn't it the Vision of Boobies that actually makes Shinji go pop?
OMF wrote:There's been some recent discussion on the EML about whether or not Asuka died at all in EoE
"I just got my arm split in half, and I won't be getting any medical attention. What are my odds of NOT dying?" [/intentionally kept as simple as possible so people don't have to contemplate subsequent and surely fatal stab wounds]
The lack of a transition guide does not in and of itself signify a huge amount—seeing as how we know they are not universal (i.e. the case of Aoba).
I thought the hordes of giggling naked Rei qualified as his transition guide. They just don't fall into the "What you desire" mold (we can only hope).
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Upon initial viewing of EoE, I was surprised to see Asuka at the end of the film specifically because I had noticed she was the only character who Rei was not present for during their death. At first, I had developed a theory that her soul hadn't been collected, she was not brought back by her own free will, etc. etc. but that was disproved upon further exploration here, in the Wiki, and another watching of the movie.
Maybe Anno left out a Ghostie Rei, because the viewer was supposed to be surprised that Asuka came back at the end? Maybe it was his last attempt at shocking twist. Just a thought.
Maybe Anno left out a Ghostie Rei, because the viewer was supposed to be surprised that Asuka came back at the end? Maybe it was his last attempt at shocking twist. Just a thought.
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Asuka has an ego so strong that quantum Rei can't penetrate it. I don't recall the MP Evas chewing on Asuka. The last shot of them before they were called up to join Unit 01 was of them tearing apart what was left of 02's limbs. They won't gain superpowers by eating Asuka. She's got no S2 Engine. As for her survival, if the first two lances gouged out her eye and bisected her arm, the other seven or so probably tore her to pieces. The movie has some sick scenes, but a shot of a horribly dismembered Asuka is overdoing it.
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I myself have no doubt whatsoever Rei attended Asuka's demise in some fashion or other, but the emphasis was on Asuka and Unit-02 dying together ("Die with me!"), so the long shot of Unit-02 being skewered is effectively Asuka's death scene as well. Inserting Rei into that scene just wouldn't work. The Rei apparitions that appear to Misato and Ritsuko as they expire seem to correlate with their participation in the Pre-3I Instrumentality segment of the movie, and I believe that it was the film-makers' intention that the audience should extrapolate from Asuka's participation therein as well that she was one, dead just like Misato and Ritsuko, and two, was present in Pre-3II via the same agency (i.e. Rei) The Reis that are by Misato and Ritsuko during 3I in #26' are there for their souls (just like everyone else, dead or alive), but those differ in narrative purpose from the ones that appeared as they died in #25', which, as indicated above, seem to be connected with Pre-3II. No doubt wherever she was, and whatever was left of Asuka by the time 3I commenced, she got tanged and turned into a little red dot, just like everyone else.
We don't see Rei because it would've looked silly to have her standing behind Asuka in her school uniform. That's probably all there is to it.
He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.
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We're assuming that there's enough room to even have her standing over Asuka. For all we know, Asuka is probably a bloody hunk of flesh covered in rubble, with a crumpled up and chewed up entry plug with no standing room for Rei to look over her shoulder.
But, if Anno had included it-- and Rei was the last thing Asuka saw before she died/tanged-- oh, boy. What a way to go for Asuka...
But, if Anno had included it-- and Rei was the last thing Asuka saw before she died/tanged-- oh, boy. What a way to go for Asuka...
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Merridian wrote:to leave it up to fanwank to discern who, exactly, Asuka would see as she tanged.
We know the people who were still alive when they got tanged saw things -- but is this necessarily true for those who were corpses (or possibly less), as in Asuka's case? The film simply shows plain old Rei standing over corpses and melting them down, and doesn't go into the issue of whether the soul in a corpse is secretly perceiving an object of desire or fear. To be perfectly honest -- do we REALLY want to go there?
Again, I hope nobody is getting confused between the "medium-Rei" that appeared to Misato and Ritsuko in 25', and the "transition guide-Rei" that appeared to people in 26'. I can't help but think that a tendency to jumble both versions together saturates this thread, but maybe I'll be proven wrong...
Shin-seiki wrote:I myself have no doubt whatsoever Rei attended Asuka's demise in some fashion or other, but the emphasis was on Asuka and Unit-02 dying together ("Die with me!"), so the long shot of Unit-02 being skewered is effectively Asuka's death scene as well.
That's as good an explanation as I've ever heard. (And if I've heard it before, hopefully you'll forgive my amnesia.)
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Her "who would she see" scene is effectively displaced, for narrative and dramatic reasons, from her death scene to her moment of revelation under the lake, when her mother appears.Merridian wrote: to leave it up to fanwank to discern who, exactly, Asuka would see as she tanged.
Compare her "Mama, you were here all along" with Shinji's "Kaworu, you were here all along" shortly before he tangs. Having anyone or anything else appear to Asuka as she croaks after all that would be sort of redundant, drama-wise.
Sure, but Kaworu's "you were here all along" reference wasn't to make Shinji tang, just to calm him down enough so that he COULD tang, right? I was under the impression that the tits made him tang. Likewise the "you were here all along" in reference to KYOKO was more to get Asuka to calm down/shape up to kick ass (along with provide plenty of abundant parallelism etc).Shin-seiki wrote:Compare her "Mama, you were here all along" with Shinji's "Kaworu, you were here all along" shortly before he tangs. Having anyone or anything else appear to Asuka as she croaks after all that would be sort of redundant, drama-wise.
Reichu's response makes a lot of sense, though.
EDIT
Fixed for brainless mistake (thank you SleepS!)
Last edited by Merridian on Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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EDIT: Overlap with Merridian due to simulpost.
The scenes are connected, but I'm not convinced they're connected in the way you imply.
You seem to be suggesting (as it is often suggested) that GNK is the thing that appears before Shinji to Tang him the same way, say, Yui appears for Fuyu or Ritsuko appears for Maya. However, GNK merely subdues Shinji and Eva-01; he doesn't cause Shinji's reversion to LCL. GNR takes back the reins as Yui says, "This Rei is your heart", and Rei asks, "What do you desire?" as an image of a woman clutching her breasts appears. It's THEN that Shinji pops. Hence, we can infer that the Vision of Boobies (= That Which Is Desired) is what Shinji got instead of a Yui, Ritsuko, or Misato to guide him into Tang Land.
Given this, I'm not quite sure the conclusions you advocate via the Kyoko-Kaworu parallel hold up.
Shin-seiki wrote:Compare her "Mama, you were here all along" with Shinji's "Kaworu, you were here all along" shortly before he tangs.
The scenes are connected, but I'm not convinced they're connected in the way you imply.
You seem to be suggesting (as it is often suggested) that GNK is the thing that appears before Shinji to Tang him the same way, say, Yui appears for Fuyu or Ritsuko appears for Maya. However, GNK merely subdues Shinji and Eva-01; he doesn't cause Shinji's reversion to LCL. GNR takes back the reins as Yui says, "This Rei is your heart", and Rei asks, "What do you desire?" as an image of a woman clutching her breasts appears. It's THEN that Shinji pops. Hence, we can infer that the Vision of Boobies (= That Which Is Desired) is what Shinji got instead of a Yui, Ritsuko, or Misato to guide him into Tang Land.
Given this, I'm not quite sure the conclusions you advocate via the Kyoko-Kaworu parallel hold up.
Last edited by Reichu on Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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