What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:09 am

View Original PostJulius wrote:I dislike the fact that no character is an hero, but then again, you could say the same thing about every modern anime.

I personally love that about Neon Genesis, nobody is good or evil, they're just people, acting how they've been conditioned to act. Neon Genesis shows perfectly that good and evil are entirely perspective based, a uniquely human concept. Gendo isn't evil, he's scared of others, but he uses that fear to motivate him to reach his wife again, at any cost. Shinji isn't a hero, he's a scared kid focused only on surviving, earning the affection of others is his true goal, similar to Gendo's. Fuyutsuki is only helping Gendo, who he knows is being selfish, because he wants to make Yui happy. Misato couldn't care less about what happens to the world and the people around her, she's only doing what she's doing to understand her father, but that's not inherently evil or good. Every single major character in Neon Genesis, and even some side characters, are like this- they do what they do because that's how they've gotten through life up until now. The only characters that could arguably be called "evil" are Seele, but even then, that's just because we don't know much about them. Keel really just wants to cleanse the world of original sin, which, in his mind, was Lilith taking Earth from Adam AFTER his Moon had already landed.
I've reached a point where I just generally don't give a fuck anymore. In a good way.

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Postby Julius » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:32 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:And about most real life people.


It really depends on where you live and HOW you live. To me,an hero is a man who struggles against the current,and stays true to his principles,even when defeat or death is unavoidable.

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Postby fukuda » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:43 pm

I heard about it on the 4tune 500 company so you could guess what I expected it to be.

Also I thought the imagery meant something and it was legitimately going to be related to the imagery, especially with the name. I expected it to be a sort of Evangelical Religious show that seriously discussed Gnosticism, Mysticism, Kabbalah, and Relativity to God considering all the "controversy" but it was less confusing than I thought it was.
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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:45 pm

View Original PostJulius wrote:It really depends on where you live and HOW you live. To me,an hero is a man who struggles against the current,and stays true to his principles,even when defeat or death is unavoidable.

I sort of agree with that.
Wouldn't you count Kaji then?
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Postby Julius » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:06 am

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I sort of agree with that.
Wouldn't you count Kaji then?


Heh, maybe.Even Ritsuko or Gendo ,to some extent.

I never could get on board with their personalities,though.This anime is not about heroism.It's about losing something, and (wanting to) reclaiming it.

I'm ok with that. It's like Attack on titan, with more depression.

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Postby SuperUltraMecha » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:18 am

The show’s pacing can be quite janky at times and the sudden abandonment of any sense of traditional story structure can be downright frustrating at times. It ultimately feels like Anno does have a idea on what the story was but improvised on telling it. Not to say improvisation is a bad thing, in fact Eva managed to hide it pretty well thanks to its short run helping it out. But when you look closely it can definitely be seen.

You can see this with episodes like Jet Alone and Magma diver.

Eva honestly felt like it would’ve been better had they go the Hellsing Ultimate route. One episode per year so Anno would’ve planned out the story and helped iron out some of the problems. Hell Gunbuster & Shin Godzilla are proof that Anno simply works better when he has a clear focus and more time.

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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:24 am

I respect your opinion, but I'm sure many people would call Eva Anno's best work.
Regardless of how it was made, what's important is the end result.
Having too much time/planning can make you overthink too.

I didn't pick up any of the issues you mention either, and the dropping of plot points I'm 100% sure was intentional. In any case it serves the message being communicated, ultimately the construct of the fantasy of the show is just that. What's important was always on a more symbolic level. Too much explanation would have reduced the symbols to just another plot element in another scifi story.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
"In any case, it (Kill la Kill) is the greatest work of fiction ever written and should be taught in schools." -Squigsquasher
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:57 am

Biggest issue with Neon Genesis.... people's over valuing of Kaworu as a character in the show. He's not really a character in NGE but is more of a succinct thematic symbol. The possibility of someone accepting you for who you are. That & Yuko Miyamura (Asuka) trying to speak German in Episode 22. As someone who spent four years living in Germany.... it hurts.

Biggest issue with Sadamoto's Manga.... bit goofy at times. Kinda tone deaf. Nice drawings of Rei though.

Biggest issue with Rebuild.... Whatever it is that Koiji Yamadera (Kaji) is trying to speak at the start of 2.0. Is it English? Russian? Martian?

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Postby Guy Nacks » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:52 am

Biggest issue with NGE: Hard to pinpoint, since the last time I watched the show from beginning to end was almost 7 years ago, but some of the overuse of certain music cues were kind of grating at times, particularly "Asuka's Strikes". I've always hated that theme and cannot for the life of me understand why Anno went with such a goofy theme (that had already been used for the "toothpicks" scene) for Asuka instead of what I'm about 95% positive was the originally-intended theme of A-2, which comes of as much more American and brash-sounding than the country hick theme. It just fits Asuka's personality much better than what was ultimately used. The S2 Works had a TON of other tracks and variations of existing tracks. Some more variety would have been nice.

Biggest Issue with NTE: I have a lot of issues with Rebuild, but if I can pinpoint the one that makes me cringe the most, it's the overuse of fanservice, to the point where it comes off as wildly tone-deaf and borderline voyeuristic. I'm no prude by any means, but boy do things like the Taint Shot, the Cleavage Collision, and the Post-Decapitation Boob Jiggle really make me question Khara's motives for their inclusion.
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And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:45 am

I never had a problem with the post-Kaworu-death boob jiggle. I never payed much attention to it (I guess I'm used to Gainax/khara stuff having boob jiggle), but I guess the reason that's even there is that Mari is the character meant to calm things down.
People still question what the point of Mari is, I think after Fourth Impact the only character able to give Shinji such a layed back speech is her. She doesn't care what happens and is always pretty easy going (established in 2.0) so she is like the contrast to all the grim stuff happening, like the opposite of Shinji, for whom everything is always too much. (2.0: There are really people who asks themselves if they should pilot? Life isn't fun like that~she says something like that).

The boob jiggle is the same I guess, a (not so subtle) joke, a "Hey, we don't take ourselves too seriously".
And her breasts weren't the total focus of the frame, even though they are seen. So it never reached the level for me where it took me out of the scene.
And is it really tone-deaf when fanservice like that is frequent in Rebuild?

(BTW I hope it bothers nobody when I respond like that, I respect the opinion, I just like exchanging what I think)
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
"In any case, it (Kill la Kill) is the greatest work of fiction ever written and should be taught in schools." -Squigsquasher
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Postby Guy Nacks » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:32 am

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:People still question what the point of Mari is, I think after Fourth Impact the only character able to give Shinji such a layed back speech is her. She doesn't care what happens and is always pretty easy going (established in 2.0) so she is like the contrast to all the grim stuff happening, like the opposite of Shinji, for whom everything is always too much. (2.0: There are really people who asks themselves if they should pilot? Life isn't fun like that~she says something like that).


But why should Shinji value her opinion? He has no idea who she is, aside from two brief interactions in 2.0. And he doesn't ruminate on her at all after that. With Asuka and Rei, he's made genuine connections...practiaclly the whole of 1.0 was about him connecting with Rei and the midnight sleepover scene in 2.0 was when he was able to establish a connection with Asuka. Mari/Shinji don't open up to each other about themselves on a personal level, so, in his eyes, she's just a weird girl who likes the scent of LCL...which probably makes her seem even more out there as far as Shinji is concerned, considering how much he hates piloting.

The boob jiggle is the same I guess, a (not so subtle) joke, a "Hey, we don't take ourselves too seriously".
And her breasts weren't the total focus of the frame, even though they are seen. So it never reached the level for me where it took me out of the scene.
And is it really tone-deaf when fanservice like that is frequent in Rebuild?


Think of it this way: What if Anno, for some reason, chose to include a similarly framed type of shot of Rei III in EOE directly following the sequence where Asuka gets killed by the MP Evas, that show her naked boobs jiggling while walking to wherever she's going with Gendo? The emotion from the previous scene gets deflated by the blatant inclusion of fanservice.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:06 am

∆ I don't think you need to know a person necessarily for what they say to affect you. It might not even matter to Shinji, but the contrast is presented to the viewer.

And I get what you are saying, but I think EoE is very different tonally from 3.0.
And while the scenes occur in succession, Shinji's POV and Mari's POV of the situation are also different.
I don't know, there are so many factors that go into this. To me personally it wasn't an issue.
I see how it bothers people, but it doesn't feel to me that way.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
"In any case, it (Kill la Kill) is the greatest work of fiction ever written and should be taught in schools." -Squigsquasher
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Postby ErgoProxy » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:39 pm

Guy Nacks wrote:Think of it this way: What if Anno, for some reason, chose to include a similarly framed type of shot of Rei III in EOE directly following the sequence where Asuka gets killed by the MP Evas, that show her naked boobs jiggling while walking to wherever she's going with Gendo? The emotion from the previous scene gets deflated by the blatant inclusion of fanservice.

No... does not compute. EoE was all about the most negative motivation a human being can come to (let something out there kill me and may the whole mankind share my fate), so putting a shot which uses female vitality to counter a death wish (but doing it in a very Pagan way) is a big no-no there. On the other hand, I think that doing such insert right before Shinji's ejection (pun intended) actually makes sense, though maybe, just maybe Anno could do it in a more subtle way.

Gendo'sPapa wrote:Whatever it is that Koiji Yamadera (Kaji) is trying to speak at the start of 2.0. Is it English? Russian? Martian?

It's a very, very bad Ponglish, all focused on attempts to mimic English "r", with childlike mannerism, and perfectly delivered.
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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:46 pm

View Original PostErgoProxy wrote:No... does not compute. EoE was all about the most negative motivation a human being can come to (let something out there kill me and may the whole mankind share my fate), so putting a shot which uses female vitality to counter a death wish (but doing it in a very Pagan way) is a big no-no there. On the other hand, I think that doing such insert right before Shinji's ejection (pun intended) actually makes sense, though maybe, just maybe Anno could do it in a more subtle way.


I dunno, man. Having jiggling breasts come in 30 seconds after the main (love?) interest of our hero has his head explode right in front of him is major tonal whiplash, no matter how subtle Anno tried to make it.
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Postby Stillborn » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:13 pm

Maybe Anno considers Shinji's trauma and suffering, equal fanservice to jiggling boobs. After all many fans weren't satisfied with Ha until Q came and left Shinji broken again. :emogendo:
Another jaded man.
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Postby ErgoProxy » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:27 pm

That's a hypothesis I could seriously consider. Mostly because (1) I agree with Mari when she says: this is how the world works, or to put it straightforward: happiness is not covered by the license issued for the mankind. Also (2) talking about love during a war of apocalyptic proportions makes me scratch my head first and then giggle a bit hysterically. And finally (3) – I can always make a huge step back and read that one peculiar passage from my post-2.22 therapeutic writings:

M. So you see. ROME DOES NOT COMMUTE.
H. ...but that's a lie.
M. But that's a bait.
H. ,,,but that's a – ping?
M. Exactly. Is the key Polish or German?
H. ...abandonware. Which one's worse?
M. The silver.
H. ...the cook.
M. As usual. Re-take?
H. ...borscht.

M. Salty too. She knows, what's up, nothing hurts her, so she put herself whole and into the dream. Here you've got an ill human being. Nobody's hurt, so nobody's hurt; but WE may get hurt, 'cause "one, who felt no pain in the lifetime..."


And shot me dead now if I know what I was thinking about (okay: about some failed high school affair) while writing this dialogue between Mari and Harey (Rei Q, Kuronami, choose the name). All I know is that it somehow DOES COMMUTE with what I saw on screen in Q. And that it makes me want to giggle. (Hail Eris?)
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Stronger than love and with me it will be
For always

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Postby kuribo-04 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:23 am

I think this could go into an even larger discussion about tonal shifts and if they are bad to begin with, especially in animation, and under what circumstances.
I only know I wasn't bothered. The entire sequence felt equally emotional to me (especially when "God's Gift" starts playing).
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
"In any case, it (Kill la Kill) is the greatest work of fiction ever written and should be taught in schools." -Squigsquasher
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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:11 pm

My biggest issue with NGE is with Shinji as a character. I understand he's very relatable for people who have suffered mental illness, and I appreciate that, but my overwhelming preference for protagonists is a proactive one. What do I mean by this? It breaks down to:

-have a goal
-take steps towards this goal

And Shinji doesn't really have either of these things. The closest he comes to having a life goal is to have people respect him, including his father, but he has no idea what that looks like or what he'll do if he ever gets it.

Now I know his passivity and despondency are the point of his character, and they do the job well. It's just not what I want from a protagonist.

As for NTE... my biggest gripe is probably the sheer number of red herrings 2.22 has as a result of the direction 3.33 took. They probably weren't all originally intended as such, but the sheer number of things from 2.22 that I realized "wow... this didn't matter at all" is staggering. That probably has more to do with my dogmatic view on Chekhov's Gun than anything, but it's such that I dislike it more than I dislike Shinji.

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:03 am

I feel myself like I don't have a goal very often, so in that sense, they got it right.
Shinji is way too concerned about figuring out the meaning of life to think about any life goals.
That said, it could be that he dreams about some type of dream job or whatever, but the show never tells us because we don't need it.
So he is just living his teen days.

Shinji really is a taste thing lol

As for the red herrings, I don't think most of them are. Despite the timeskip, I think whatever mind trippy thing happens in 3+1 will conclude them.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
"In any case, it (Kill la Kill) is the greatest work of fiction ever written and should be taught in schools." -Squigsquasher
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Postby Lavinius » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:26 pm

I've come to be troubled by Kaworu's appearances in 26', which imply that in 24 either 1) he had no idea what he was talking about and was acting with false notions of what his death would be, which is hardly æsthetically pleasing; or 2) that he was being disingenuous with Shinji, one of those scheming deities who put on performances and feign sacrifices for their arcane, inhuman goals.
I mean, in 24 the picture is that Kaworu's death is an actual death, that he dies and with him Adamid race. This, of course, is the cause of Shinji's crisis in 25- and Kaworu's spirit makes no appearance in 25 & 26. And, of course, in 26' it's quite clear that Kaworu's soul did not perish, and retains its Kaworuness.
I admit, though, that the destruction of Kaworu's character is perhaps exactly the point of his reappearance. After all, it occupies a rather prominent part of Shinji's dissolution. Not really that I think that Shinji recognizes (as the viewer may) the implication of Kaworu's survival being that Kaworu deceived and played him; but at least it rather wears down his perception of "reality", thrusting him further into illucidity.
As for what exactly Kaworu's real plan was, I think it has to do with the rest of the souls in Adam's Guf. Clearly, as a Seed, he has the divine role of birthing these, but as a restored Fruit of Life Adam this would of course be impossible for whatever reason without conflicting with the Lilin. But whether access to the Guf resided with Adam's soul or Adam's body, both of these came to be unified within Lilith's body. And Lilith's body was, of course, last scene breaking apart and releasing souls from within. Thus Kaworu's plan was to hierogamize with Rei, and, through his access to her soul & flesh, to birth these souls with a Fruit of Knowledge nature, along with rest of the Lilin to be reborn. (Reichu had a significant part in bringing me to notice this, and it certainly does reflect her concerns.)
But if this is the case, it's rather obscurely communicated, and doesn't change the fact that Kaworu lied to Shinji and hurt him immensely. Which, even if necessary (why, in his urging Shinji to kill him, couldn't he have intimated that his death was illusory and that he would be resurrected?) and justified by his divine purpose, still make him a very different, far less likeable character than the one in 24.
(It might be worth observing that Kaworu doesn't make any appearance in the manga's version of Third Impact.)

Also, of course I really wish more time had been devoted to Rei, and that we had seen her and Shinji spend time together.


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