What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby TheCarkolum » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:41 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:How many times is overused? I'm pretty sure you can count the number of train sequences used in the original series on one hand.


In episode 20 is used at least 3 times, so pretty sure one hand won't be enough. Again, it's overused because most of the times it's not needed, it's used just because it's basically a setting to fill sequences, it loses its meaning.
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Postby pwhodges » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:55 am

Three times, yes. The first is a five-second still, and the other two (totalling 30-odd seconds) are two parts of a conversation with Rei with a brief interruption; all are part of his one experience within the Eva. Actually, in that episode there are more repetitions and more time given to beach imagery - shouldn't you complain about that as well?
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby TheCarkolum » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:33 am

Well, yeah. There's so much to complain in episode 20. But the train sequence is, as we told before, a motif. The beach one is better, in my opinion, for several reasons. First, it has a purpose along the series, and it never loses it. You know, the human reality, in contrast with when we are inside the sea, who represents the unknown, the hidden, the dark for the human conscience (like Angels or when Rei is in the LCL). Also appears in the I need You final, when the motif appears, but now is painted in red.
Second, it's short, concise and straight to the point: now human reality has been purified (like the I Need You final).
Third, it's better used in episode 20. You know, one side is Shinji's world, and the other side is the enemy, or what Shinji fears. And that's it (except when Rei-Misato-Asuka says the "become one with me", but I think it worked).
Actually, I've rewatched the episode and I think it appears 5 times the goddamn train thing! (i'm counting every separate cuts). The beach imagery is not nearly as ham fisted. It helps more than hurts.
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby Sachi » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:58 am

Is it the number of train sequences used that makes it hamfisted? And when do they ever lose their meaning as Shinji's personal hell/purgatory?
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby imprimatur13 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:22 pm

@TheCarkolum
About the beach symbolism:

I always thought it was more of a... primordial thing (like the sea of nutrients from which life evolved). Specifically, those scenes during 3I in EoE, where Shinji is with Rei, and Kaworu, that it symbolized a sort of recreation of life. Or perhaps, of... Not isolation, but just of being alone with one other person. Sort of like a desert island-situation, where just 2 people are marooned together. Just you and she (no one else), becoming one. Just waves lapping up against sand. An element of soothing, quiet peace as well (beaches have kind of a, "vacation"-like, calm, relaxing association in the popular consciousness, I think).

Examples: Shinji in apparent coitus with Rei during 3I, Asuka and Shinji post-3I, (I think there was beach symbolism during) the "Do you want to become one with me" sequence.

So, I think I'll have to strongly disagree with your interpretation of it as "You know, the human reality, in contrast with when we are inside the sea, who represents the unknown, the hidden, the dark for the human conscience (like Angels or when Rei is in the LCL)". I really don't feel that way. Unless, you could provide some reasoning?

And about the trains:

I like the trains. Ever since Shinji ran away from NERV, they became a symbol of him wanting to isolate himself from his responsibilities. When Asuka & co. begin invading his mental train car, they also become a symbol of him wanting to not face his true self.
So, I think that they are a very effectively used (every time, it always carries a significant meaning), and also non-intrusive (they are only the place in which these things happen) symbol. It's not like they're flashing pictures of trains every episode...
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby silvermoonlight » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:45 am

I'm going to say the possible rape sexual assault of Ritsuko by Seele where she's standing naked in front of them as she's taken the fall for Gendo. I hated it as I hate rape and sexual assault as a central plot line and I think they could have done something different here as there are other forms of humiliation you can use on people that don't involve this and have the same effect. To Evangelion's credit though this whole thing is not treated as kink its framed as disgusting and awful and Ritsuko mental trauma is shown afterwards and I'm glad it wasn't used again in rebuild.
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby TheCarkolum » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:00 am

View Original Postimprimatur13 wrote:I always thought it was more of a... primordial thing (like the sea of nutrients from which life evolved). Specifically, those scenes during 3I in EoE, where Shinji is with Rei, and Kaworu, that it symbolized a sort of recreation of life. Or perhaps, of... Not isolation, but just of being alone with one other person. Sort of like a desert island-situation, where just 2 people are marooned together. Just you and she (no one else), becoming one. Just waves lapping up against sand. An element of soothing, quiet peace as well (beaches have kind of a, "vacation"-like, calm, relaxing association in the popular consciousness, I think).

Well yeah, the becoming one is a recurring meaning to the "inside sea sequence", but I also meant that when I say that represents the dark for the human soul, because it's unknown for him, it's beyond-humanesque. What I say is, not only represents that, but other elements. What encompasses all that is what I said in the previous sentence (the transformation of the soul, the negation of your own identity, the negation of your own humanity and also the not human, the beyond human).

View Original Postimprimatur13 wrote:Unless, you could provide some reasoning?

Well, look at this:
Image
Here, Shinji looks into the depths of the sea and he realises it's also his world, but in a way he doesn't understand, and then he realises it's the "enemy" (you see an Angel's core). This frame also reminds me to the ED, when Rei is like suspended into the sea. It's like the external of the human soul, like pointing out the "non-human" part of Rei (what also relates to the Angels). Then you got the beach, which is also Shinji's world, but in a social, usual way, where he sees the people he knows.
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby imprimatur13 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:42 am

@TheCarkolum

I see. Perhaps, instead of "non-human", we might say that the common thread, is being confronted with the presence of the "other". And that both your and my interpretations are two aspects of that?

(By the way, that picture, which episode is it from? Just wondering.)

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I definitely see what you're saying. Actually, I never thought of rape when I saw that scene. I thought it was just, humiliation. But, not violent. Perhaps I was a bit naive?
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby silvermoonlight » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:23 am

View Original Postimprimatur13 wrote:@silvermoonlight

I definitely see what you're saying. Actually, I never thought of rape when I saw that scene. I thought it was just, humiliation. But, not violent. Perhaps I was a bit naive?


No I don't think you were naive on first watch as a teenager I total missed this as well and thought the whole scene was weird, strange and jarred and out of place. It wasn't until I re-watched it years later I went well hang on her clothes are missing and Seele talks about humiliating her and my adult mind sadly gravitated to that being the reason and I felt that I was looking at the after match of something really awful and its proved further in how Ritsuko's mind set changes really drastically. As she goes from disliking Gendo to outright hating his guts and trying to kill him in EOE and berating him over the fact Yui who she views as Rei is betrayed him and doesn't love him even as she's dying.
Last edited by silvermoonlight on Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby TheCarkolum » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:11 pm

View Original Postimprimatur13 wrote:@TheCarkolum

I see. Perhaps, instead of "non-human", we might say that the common thread, is being confronted with the presence of the "other". And that both your and my interpretations are two aspects of that?

By the way, that picture, which episode is it from?


It's from my "beloved" episode 20. Yeah, the "other"
maybe fits too...

Sachi wrote:Is it the number of train sequences used that makes it hamfisted? And when do they ever lose their meaning as Shinji's personal hell/purgatory


I am not using that meaning, but Reichu's:

Reichu wrote:Trains are burned into Shinji's psyche because they're inextricably linked to the memory of being abandoned by his father.


You see what's the problem here? We can't concretely discern what the train really means. And I'm not saying it's open to interpretation and therefore is bad, I'm saying it's a lazy, pointless symbolism that doesn't add up and therefore we can put any meaning we come up with. This is not the case of the beach, because although open to interpretation, the symbol points out to a certain idea. Shinji's hell, Shinji's purgatory? Dunno, if you theorize so... It doesn't add nothing to the series, nor it's really accurate as an explanation for the symbolism...

Personally, I have no clue what the train is supposedly about, because of that I claim it's pretentious and pointless. It's ham fisted because, even when it means nothing (or ends up meaning nothing), it's used many times, and therefore it becomes ham fisted. You can put any random symbolism once, and if it's aesthetically pleasing and harmless, I'm ok with that. But sometimes I got the feeling that it's used with the single purpose of filling sequences, specially in episode 20. In episode 16, it works so-so: Leliel is talking with Shinji, and it takes the form of a young Shinji through his stream of consciousness (the train). In fact, if was never used again, I would not even notice. But when it's used in other episodes, the meaning becomes diluted. Young Shinji appears again for some reason, and also Rei (because why the fuck not), and becomes repetitive and pointless, more like a symbolic motif becomes a discursive motif. Something that exists just because we feel like talking mumbo jambo...
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby Sachi » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:28 pm

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but I still don't see a problem. The train sequences make sense just fine to me. I don't see how what Reichu says contradicts what I said; they really go hand in hand. Trains are linked to Shinji's insecurities, and therefore becomes the setting of his personal hell. As for concretely discerning anything: remember that we're discussimg symbolism here.
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:34 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:Personally, I have no clue what the train is supposedly about.

It's about what happens in that setting. That's enough for me on the first occasion (and I suppose from what you wrote that it would be for you if it happened only once); but on subsequent appearances it cues me in to what's going on in Shinji's mind.
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby TheCarkolum » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:27 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:The train sequences make sense just fine to me. I don't see how what Reichu says contradicts what I said; they really go hand in hand. Trains are linked to Shinji's insecurities, and therefore becomes the setting of his personal hell.


Oh, I see. I thought you were giving another different interpretation of your own, not completing Reichu's. So, are you saying that because Shinji has a sort of trauma with trains, that sequence is his hell? That theory is too much articulated and inconsistent. First, how do we know that is his hell? Shinji seems just fine. Second how do you know trains are so important to Shinji to take part of his entire psyche? We are never shown. Third, maybe the word "personal" is invalidated, because even Touji sees the goddamn thing, so rather than something personal it feels like another dimension, like a global purgatory for the comatose or who the hell knows. Anyway, it's clear that some bad, lazy pointless symbolism is going on there, what leads me to this:

pwhodges wrote:It's about what happens in that setting. That's enough for me on the first occasion (and I suppose from what you wrote that it would be for you if it happened only once); but on subsequent appearances it cues me in to what's going on in Shinji's mind.


No, it's not just a setting where shit happens, but a bad symbolism of something, like the show tries to hint. Even if it were just a setting I would be pissed, but mostly because the train sequences in episode 20 are redundant as hell, but that would be episode 20's fault.
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby Sachi » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:04 pm

Global purgatory, or hints of Instrumentality?

And the train association is obvious. His father abandoned him at a train station. When he runs away from Misato's apartment, he rides the train loop for hours until it goes out of service. When he finally chooses to stay with Misato, he decides at a train station (and chooses against entering the train, against running away and retreating into himself, finally choosing to connect with somebody). And finally, we have all the train sequences.
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby TheCarkolum » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:15 pm

Sachi wrote: His father abandoned him at a train station

That would explain something, but all I see is Shinji with a bag. That implies he was left in a train station? Maybe Gendo was like: "Shinji, pack your shit and get out". I mean, why is Shinji crying if his father is leaving from the train station? Maybe he just went to the bathroom? And even if it's true, why associate his trauma with him inside the train and not at the station? BTW, I've read the evageeks page and the motif seems to be not attached to only to Shinji but other characters (like Asuka in ep. 22), so..
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby imprimatur13 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:21 pm

I think the idea is that Gendo was sending Shinji to live with his teacher. Which is why he had a bag. That's why the trauma was inside the train: Because, while in the station, he was still with Gendo. He was only alone after he was in the train. But, he seems to have somewhat repressed the actual train thing, because it's too painful, and instead thinks about the station. At least at the station, Gendo was still there. He wasn't completely alone.

But then his subconscious brings forth his repressed train experience, into these visions.

How I understand it, anyway.
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby Cybermat47 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:03 pm

The defeat of Ireul. I mean, how did they manage to make it kill itself? Did the Magi just send it this image?

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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby TheCarkolum » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:54 pm

View Original Postimprimatur13 wrote:I think the idea is that Gendo was sending Shinji to live with his teacher. Which is why he had a bag. That's why the trauma was inside the train: Because, while in the station, he was still with Gendo. He was only alone after he was in the train. But, he seems to have somewhat repressed the actual train thing, because it's too painful, and instead thinks about the station. At least at the station, Gendo was still there. He wasn't completely alone.

But then his subconscious brings forth his repressed train experience, into these visions.


That's a lot of speculation, I just can't really connect the dots properly. You have to assume Shinji got into the train after that, which is never shown or hinted (a plane, a car, a bus, maybe he went on foot, who knows). Then, you have to assume that he repressed his memories on him inside the train, but not his memories of him watching his father leaving away (Gendo was still there? I don't think that's a correct description, basically he sees his father disappearing on the horizon, isn't that traumatic?).
Also you assume that he has these memories which are too painful for him to handle due to some trauma, but he gets into a train like, 50 times in the series? Again, not much trauma it seems... If you got a terrible experience in a car in a way you repress all the memories of that car, I can assure you'll PANIC if you get into a car the next time. And if that's the case, why is never shown or told? Like episode 4, the show could give some little hint about Shinji gaving dramatic experiences with trains. Didn't see any of that. I... I just don't buy it.
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby Reichu » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:19 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:That would explain something, but all I see is Shinji with a bag.

I think you should watch episode 16 again.
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Re: What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby TheCarkolum » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:53 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I think you should watch episode 16 again.

I did. What point are you trying to make? In that episode we don't see anything new about Shinji's childhood. He was abandoned with a bag, that's it. You mean we see a young Shinji in the train? Yeah, we see Rei and even Asuka in EoE too (and Tōji as well), so it's reasonable to state none of these people are literal representations of the people who took the train with Shinji... Even I froze the frame which young Shinji is in the train and there's no bag anywhere around... The young Shinji is basically a representation of Leliel, but in the next episodes the symbolism got out of hand, that's my deal with the train sequences...
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