What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:53 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:I'm talking about those who are lamenting the show's (pretty numerous!) loose ends.


I haven't seen much of that. Most of what's been posted has been people lamenting the fact that some elements of the show were handled poorly, and could have been handled better without changing the nature or direction of the show.

To use your music example: improv or no an out of tune instrument is still out of tune. Saying "tune that fucker!" does not amount to saying "play a different style of music."
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Allemann » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:44 pm

I regret the show's erratic sense of what it wants to be. The first and the last five episodes are made as if different conceptions were driving the production staff. NGE would be better if all of the 26 episodes were made as the last ones.

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Postby Alaska Slim » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:34 pm

View Original PostAllemann wrote:NGE would be better if all of the 26 episodes were made as the last ones.

What do you mean? Produced like 25/26, a disjointed clip show, with occasional new animation, or produced with DC edits already in place, or produced with the end in mind or...?
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Postby Allemann » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:40 pm

Like from 20 to 24. The atmosphere I mean. So that you get the feeling that the series is oriented toward young adults.

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:52 pm

View Original PostAllemann wrote:Like from 20 to 24. The atmosphere I mean. So that you get the feeling that the series is oriented toward young adults.


Seems to me that's missing the point of the exercise. Those episodes work as well as they do because we know and care about the characters; they're building on everything that came before. If you tried that from the beginning the viewer would have no connection with the characters onscreen, and the epipsodes come across as pretentious crap (mainly because that's what they'd be).

NGE works by subverting expectations. You gotta establish them first if you're gonna do that effectively.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Allemann » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:04 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Seems to me that's missing the point of the exercise.


Which exercise?

Those episodes work as well as they do because we know and care about the characters; they're building on everything that came before. If you tried that from the beginning the viewer would have no connection with the characters onscreen, and the epipsodes come across as pretentious crap (mainly because that's what they'd be).


I'm not talking about characters. I'm talking about the darker, more mature tone in the story that could've been implemented from the beginning to give the show a more polished, coherent form. I don't blame Gainax exactly with all the problems they had.

NGE works by subverting expectations.


I don't belong to the targeted demographics (Japanese mecha fans). I don't have any expectation to be subverted.

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:11 pm

View Original PostAllemann wrote:I'm not talking about characters. I'm talking about the darker, more mature tone in the story that could've been implemented from the beginning to give the show a more polished, coherent form.


Except making the first episodes more like the last wouldn't do that. And anyway the complaint doesn't make much sense, as the first episodes are much like the last in terms of tone; the show only lightens up around episode 7.

I don't belong to the targeted demographics (Japanese mecha fans). I don't have any expectation to be subverted.


That being the case, how would doing things your way make the show "better"? Since your goals don't match up with those of either the creators or the target audience I'm having trouble seeing how it'd work.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby rhfxz1s » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:30 pm

View Original PostAllemann wrote:I regret the show's erratic sense of what it wants to be. The first and the last five episodes are made as if different conceptions were driving the production staff. NGE would be better if all of the 26 episodes were made as the last ones.

I actually disagree. One of my favorite things about the show is the way it transitions tones from the lighthearted beginning to the rather dark (EoE in particular) ending. It catches the viewer off guard and plays with your emotions in a way that I don't think would be as effective if the entire series was darker from the beginning.

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Postby Allemann » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:00 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Except making the first episodes more like the last wouldn't do that.


Making all episodes like the last ones would do it. Duh! :hahaha:

And anyway the complaint doesn't make much sense, as the first episodes are much like the last in terms of tone; the show only lightens up around episode 7.


My watching of the show gave me a different impression. When I first watched Evangelion (99' I think), I dropped the show after the first five episodes because I thought it was mediocre and unengaging. Luckily, I recorded some of the much later episodes and after I watched them, I kicked myself repeatedly in the head for not watching the entire series because these episodes were actually good.

That being the case, how would doing things your way make the show "better"?


It would make the show "better" for me according to my standards.

Since your goals don't match up with those of either the creators or the target audience I'm having trouble seeing how it'd work.


Whether it works depends solely on me because I'm doing it for me and only me. I'm the one whom I want to entertain.

View Original Postrhfxz1s wrote:I actually disagree. One of my favorite things about the show is the way it transitions tones from the lighthearted beginning to the rather dark (EoE in particular) ending. It catches the viewer off guard and plays with your emotions in a way that I don't think would be as effective if the entire series was darker from the beginning.


Each to his own. I like differently made fiction. And you don't need to change the mood to play with somebody's emotion and expectations, though that is also effective.

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Postby Nivek » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:18 pm

When I first watched through it I was a little annoyed that when Toji was coming into the series as another pilot and I was excited about there being more pilots beyond just the 3 at that point, lo and behold, he angle-fies and gets nixed lol. Of course, at the time I was expecting there to be more pilots for some final angle battles instead of the psychological jabberwocky that it turned out to be lol.
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Postby SaVaGe » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:08 pm

View Original PostNivek wrote:When I first watched through it I was a little annoyed that when Toji was coming into the series as another pilot and I was excited about there being more pilots beyond just the 3 at that point, lo and behold, he angle-fies and gets nixed lol. Of course, at the time I was expecting there to be more pilots for some final angle battles instead of the psychological jabberwocky that it turned out to be lol.


This one is two sided for me. I was excited to see more characters show up, especially Touji getting a bigger role. But at the same time, that particular incedent was so essential to Shinji's character progression that I without it, the rest of the series would have most likely played out quite differently.
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:31 pm

I don't like Arael or Aramisael. All of the other angels have a sort of progression to them, but I'm not sure what either of them was actually trying to do. If an Eva never surfaced, would Arael have just hovered there forever? Their actions serve the plot, but make no sense outside of it.

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Postby Azathoth » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:43 pm

Arael would probably have puppeted Unit 02 downstairs to make contact with Adam or something. Armisael just tried to merge with Lilith because he was ronery :shinji_boohoo:
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Postby Nivek » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:12 pm

View Original PostSaVaGe wrote:This one is two sided for me. I was excited to see more characters show up, especially Touji getting a bigger role. But at the same time, that particular incedent was so essential to Shinji's character progression that I without it, the rest of the series would have most likely played out quite differently.


I now carry those same sentiments but at the time my view was different, not having the forethought to know the ending which I have now come to appreciate.
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Postby Born of Lilith » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:02 pm

The Children's social lives outside Nerv are pretty glossed over... I mean, come on, they go to school, and I'd guess that they must have some sort of general familiarity with their classmates besides the three who are established characters, enough so for them to be shown as more than just token background fodder for a couple scenes. You can't tell me Toji is the closest thing to a bully the school has, or that Kensuke is for the most part alone in his vocal geekiness or even that there couldn't be a disenfranchised tomgirl in the class with the courage to try and talk to Rei.
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Postby SaVaGe » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:25 pm

View Original PostBorn of Lilith wrote:The Children's social lives outside Nerv are pretty glossed over... I mean, come on, they go to school, and I'd guess that they must have some sort of general familiarity with their classmates besides the three who are established characters, enough so for them to be shown as more than just token background fodder for a couple scenes. You can't tell me Toji is the closest thing to a bully the school has, or that Kensuke is for the most part alone in his vocal geekiness or even that there couldn't be a disenfranchised tomgirl in the class with the courage to try and talk to Rei.


I've felt this exact way before as well. I mean, it's not the most important part of the series, but I do kinda wish their social lives were more invested in. More kids speaking in class than the 6.
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Postby neongelo16 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:31 am

I DONT WANT TO CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT EVA!
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Postby Warren Peace » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:48 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:To use your music example: improv or no an out of tune instrument is still out of tune. Saying "tune that fucker!" does not amount to saying "play a different style of music."


I guess what I'm saying is that the out of tune parts help make the show what it is. Anno's lack of planning caused certain things not to add up, but I don't think the story would have been as innovative following a rigid plan. Touching on what Allemann said, the "show's erratic sense of what it wants to be" is what made it so successful. The first half of NGE is different from the second, but the series had to walk before it could run.

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:53 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:I guess what I'm saying is that the out of tune parts help make the show what it is. Anno's lack of planning caused certain things not to add up, but I don't think the story would have been as innovative following a rigid plan. Touching on what Allemann said, the "show's erratic sense of what it wants to be" is what made it so successful. The first half of NGE is different from the second, but the series had to walk before it could run.


You're exhibiting all or nothing thinking here, and missing the point of the critiques people are leveling toward the show. There is a middle ground -- a quite expansive one, at that -- between lack of planning and rigid plan. Similarly, the fact that a show might be erratic or eclectic does not mean every element therein is critical to the integrity of the whole. Your argument here amounts to "NGE is absolutely perfect as is, and no idea of which we can conceive can possibly improve it even the slightest bit." It's a silly argument.

Yes, errors and oversights occasionally contribute to the charm of a piece, but sometimes they're just errors that can stand correcting. It's no sin to make note of such.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Warren Peace » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:06 am

The critiques in the thread come from all sorts of different places. You can't generalize them all (even though you're trying to). Of course some are legitimate. I was responding to stuff like:

View Original PostBagheera wrote:-- Seeing at least a hint of how Asuka got from point A to point B during EoE would be nice.


Asking the series to explain that misses the point. EOE sidesteps those details because they don't matter. It's concerned with the interior world of characters, not the techno-fantasy mumbo-jumbo of how a dead girl is physically reconstituted (OR how she got into Unit-02 at the beginning, if that's what you mean). Explaining that would only bog down the story. There are dozens (hundreds?) of loose ends like that we can hold against the show, but we shouldn't. Anno wants us to think about what it means, not how it happens.


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