Toji and EVA 03

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Toji and EVA 03

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Postby DevRei17 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:41 am

Did anyone else notice not once in episode 18 did we see Touji inside EVA 03? The first time I watched this episode, I was sure they were going to cut to him or something, get his perspective at least. We also don't even see him go to NERV to get suited up. Thinking about it, it was probably so we could see this episode from Shinji's point of view. That would make sense considering the one time we do see Touji anywhere near EVA 03 is when he's pulled out, much to Shinji's discovery.
Last edited by DevRei17 on Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Otakon 08 Ikari » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:00 pm

Yup, poor Toji really gets messed up I mean to run that thing you really got to give an Arm and a Leg. Ha...Eva humor.

In the Manga he dies lol.
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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:03 pm

I really wish some people would tag manga spoilers.

I think in Eva-03 Toji experienced mind rape that focused on angry feelings toward Shinji and his sister being hospitalized.
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Postby Lucretius » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:13 pm

Joseph the PRPD wrote:I really wish some people would tag manga spoilers.



Snape kills Dumbledore.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby AVman9 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:03 pm

The fact that we don't get Touji's point of view makes things more disturbing. It leaves his experiences to your imagination, which would be far worse than anything Anno could have actually put in the show.

But then again, my mind is pessimisstic. Some people might imagine that he was having a grand old time. :thumbsup:
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Postby Sachi » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:17 pm

The reason we don't see Toji's point of view is because it's supposed to be a surprise that he's the pilot. Sure there was OVER 9000 clues and signs just screaming that he was the pilot, but we're never told straight up until Shinji finds out.
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Postby DevRei17 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:26 pm

Sachi wrote:The reason we don't see Toji's point of view is because it's supposed to be a surprise that he's the pilot. Sure there was OVER 9000 clues and signs just screaming that he was the pilot, but we're never told straight up until Shinji finds out.

It would be funny if it turned out Pen Pen was the pilot and Touji was only at NERV to clean up the EVA's or something.
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Postby Allemann » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:22 pm

DevRei17 wrote:It would be funny if it turned out Pen Pen was the pilot and Touji was only at NERV to clean up the EVA's or something.


Anno never had a sense of humor.

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Postby Xard » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:49 pm

Allemann wrote:
DevRei17 wrote:It would be funny if it turned out Pen Pen was the pilot and Touji was only at NERV to clean up the EVA's or something.


Anno never had a sense of humor.


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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:58 pm

It's certainly not the first time in the series Anno has used a forced perspective for narrative impact. The entire structure of ep. 2 is built around this concept.
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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:06 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:The entire structure of ep. 2 is built around this concept.


That's right. When Unit-01 goes Berserk.
I liked the manga's take on it a bit.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:29 pm

What was the manga's take?
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Xard » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:33 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:What was the manga's take?


colossal fuckup

Sadamoto's Eva manga became uter trainwreck much later (around time Kaworu is introduced or little before when he let her creepy love for Rei dominate whole mango. Honestly, only way one can prefer mango is if one ships Rei and Shinji together, I think...) but there were early marks: most obvious being how he handled ep 2

Worst thing about is that somehow Sadamoto managed to get Eva's soul thingie UTTERLY WRONG: Eva has own soul...and Yui. It makes no fucking sense.

Oh, and we are nigh-literally (it's so blatant) told that Yui is in Eva. In ep 2 timelinewise. DUDE WTF

I really can't say he did anything good in comparison to anime. With exception of certain extralove to fight scene with Sachiel. That huge pic of Eva-01 hitting Sachiel's core with her kneethingies is smexyness <3

but yeah, I don't know what PRD is smoking. Mango version most definetly isn't better than anime version due to plot fuckups
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Postby Merridian » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:35 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:What was the manga's take?
IIRC it introduced the nonsensical double-soul in EVA thing that Sadamoto brings up again during the post-Zeruel incident (don't remember which chap/vol its in). Then it proceeds to play out all the berserk-action (not unlike Rebuild 01) rather than referring to it in 'flashback' like Ep. 02 did.

EDIT
Xard wrote:colossal fuckup
Basically this.

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Postby Xard » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:37 pm

Merridian wrote:
Eva Yojimbo wrote:What was the manga's take?
IIRC it introduced the nonsensical double-soul in EVA thing that Sadamoto brings up again during the post-Zeruel incident (don't remember which chap/vol its in). Then it proceeds to play out all the berserk-action (not unlike Rebuild 01) rather than referring to it in 'flashback' like Ep. 02 did.


Which was understandable due to RoE's structure as single film (but it's BIG loss nonetheless) but Sadamoto really didn't gain anything with that move either.

Add Sadamoto's take on time structure to things I hate about his "ep 2"
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Merridian » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:54 pm

Xard wrote: Which was understandable due to RoE's structure as single film (but it's BIG loss nonetheless) but Sadamoto really didn't gain anything with that move either.
Yeah, Rebuild's case was regrettable but understandable. The manga's case was just further proof that Sadamoto was simplifying/condensing things into typical shonen manga format rather than really playing with NGE's capacity. But this is getting off topic.

More on topic is the fact that Sadamoto did the SAME thing (in terms of revealing plot details for no reason) during the Unit-03 fiasco, not to mention how overboard it went with the melodrama. Ep. 18 was badass. Manga equivalent tried too hard to be heart-wrenching by revealing details just for SHOCK value. Toji is seen as pilot in the manga for this reason. He's also killed off for the same reason.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:57 pm

All of the above posts are why I've really had zero interest in reading the manga.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Lucretius » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:02 pm

I didn't think the manga's take on Unit 03 was that bad. Shinji's not knowing the identity of the pilot in the TV series was contrived. And Toji dying makes more sense than Toji miraculously surviving only to inexplicably disappear from the story.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby Merridian » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:57 pm

Jimbo wrote: All of the above posts are why I've really had zero interest in reading the manga.
:lol: I’m not sure why I kept reading it.

Lucretius wrote: Shinji's not knowing the identity of the pilot in the TV series was contrived.
:shrug: Not knowing the identity of the pilot served to further highlight how self-absorbed Shinji was (best exemplified during the rooftop conversation between he & Kensuke right before the attack :lol:). I will admit that there were a few TOO many clues for the audience (in fact, Ep. 17 is one of my least favorites in whole show in part because of this). As far as the manga is concerned, I thought Toji breaking down, breaking character, & confessing to Shinji outside his uncle's apartment felt more contrived than series-Shinji being his regular old oblivious self.
Lucretius wrote:And Toji dying makes more sense than Toji miraculously surviving only to inexplicably disappear from the story.
Toji dying is predictable, heavy-handed, and ultimately unnecessary, as the only point it would serve would be to further highlight Shinji's already-prevalent guilt (be it misplaced or not). If anything, Toji surviving & not explicitly blaming Shinji for the incident holds greater insight to Shinji's character; instead of reestablishing the friendship that he had with Toji, he shuts himself off AGAIN, stops piloting Eva (making Toji's "sacrifice" moot until Kaji talks some sense into him), and turns into a bag of mope. Up until Ep. 23 (where it's made clear that Kensuke left the city, so it's assumed everyone else has as well), Shinji could have tried to reconnect with him, but he doesn't. And this is made even clearer when he complains about it an episode later:
http://www.animanga.com/scripts/textesgb/eva24.html wrote: Shinji: (Touji, Kensuke lost their house here and went to somewhere.
No friend, I have no friend here.
No one.
I don't want to see Ayanami.
I lost the courage to see her.
How shall I behave before her?
Asuka, Misato-san, Mom,
What Shall I do? What!
***I don’t have access to my DVDs right now so I had to rely on this shoddy translation. Point’s made regardless so I hope it’s satisfactory.

I dunno. I guess my point is that the manga is far less interested in developing the same kind of Shinji that the series presents, instead taking many "safer" & more predictable methods of development. The result is a fairly typical shonen manga, with a Shinji that's merely angst-ridden & snotty rather than a severely depressed anti-hero. The way Sadamoto handled the Unit-03 fiasco is just a pretty good example of this.

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Postby Lucretius » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:22 pm

Merridian wrote: Toji dying is predictable, heavy-handed, and ultimately unnecessary, as the only point it would serve would be to further highlight Shinji's already-prevalent guilt (be it misplaced or not). If anything, Toji surviving & not explicitly blaming Shinji for the incident holds greater insight to Shinji's character; instead of reestablishing the friendship that he had with Toji, he shuts himself off AGAIN, stops piloting Eva (making Toji's "sacrifice" moot until Kaji talks some sense into him), and turns into a bag of mope. Up until Ep. 23 (where it's made clear that Kensuke left the city, so it's assumed everyone else has as well), Shinji could have tried to reconnect with him, but he doesn't. And this is made even clearer when he complains about it an episode later:


To me, it seems more like Toji and Kensuke simply vanish, forgotten by the writers and characters alike. Shinji's guilt isn't addressed at all after episode 19; the manga explicitly shows that Shinji is too afraid to confront Kensuke and Hikari at school.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

Life is a continuous nut-kicking contest where your turn comes last if ever. -majlund

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