Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:09 am

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:No, Rei and Asuka were always intended to be main characters. they each faced an Angel directly messing with their mind, and all had well exposited backstories. I also wouldn't call Mari pointless. We just don't know enough about her to make that judgement, yes from poor writing, but we know she's a capable pilot. And by your reasoning, if you think Mari is pointless, then with the amount of exposited backstory we have on the rest of the cast, such as the AAA Wunder, they may as well be "pointless" as well.

I do find it pointless. ^_^
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:05 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:^ The only fault that can give NTE within terms of handling Asuka and Rei as supporting cast members is that they kept their “Main Character Anime Hair.” A simple redesign would have fixed that. (But, c’mon, do you really want that iconic visual contrast eliminated from these characters? I think not.) Other than that, narratively speaking, there is no technical or structural issue with how NTE handles these characters as suppprting cast members.


I had never though about hair that way lol.
I don't think it's that weird for almost all characters to have memorable designs.
And while Rei and Asuka aren't as important as they were in NGE (so far) they are more important than Hikari was in NGE, for example.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Settie » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:13 pm

I think one of the things that has hurt NTE compared to NGE is the huge time gap between "episodes". In NGE you'd only have to wait a week to see the next step of the story, and even its movie was only 2 years after the main series conclusion. It's been 6 years (and counting) since 3.0 so all of the questions raised by it have remained in limbo for that time since the movie itself doesn't answer them.

That combined with the radical departure from the previews two films makes 3.0 in particular ripe for criticism. Good example of that is Shinjis treatment by WILLIE, on first viewing you're taken aback by this sudden cold reception. Then kaworu comes along and states that Shinji is responsible for the current state of things, so there's seemingly an answer for his treatment. However, given subsequent stated and visual information - 11th and 12th angels, death of lilith and 3rd impact caused by the clusterfudge of lilith mark-6 and 12th angel. Kaworu's information isn't reliable and the movie ends, so you're back to square one. Rewatches don't help as the little information you gained makes that treatment stand out even more rather than be seen under a new light by hindsight.

Think of it like this, if the LOTR movies hadn't been made simultaneously and instead one at a time with large time gaps between them. Adding to that the 2nd completely deviates from the book canon leaving the 3rd to wrap up every new thing that has been added by the 2nd. In my opinion it's that sort of feeling that makes the NTE "feel" lesser than the "original" even if it's not necessarily worse.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:50 am

View Original PostSettie wrote:I think one of the things that has hurt NTE compared to NGE is the huge time gap between "episodes".
Fun fact -- The interval between EoE and 1.0 was shorter than that between 1.0 and now.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:00 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Fun fact -- The interval between EoE and 1.0 was shorter than that between 1.0 and now.

That is both fun and disturbing
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:37 am

Rebuild has now existed for just shy of half of the franchise's total lifetime. Kinda funny to see it being referred to as "the new thing" with that in mind. Same with Mari. :lol:
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:19 am

And Rebuild will take another fifth of it's own lifetime to be finished. Though, I don't think it'll beat out the manga for time spent to complete.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:08 pm

Firstly, sorry for the double post. Secondly, before I went too off topic with a rant in this other thread with this post. I figured I'd air my grievances here in the appropriate thread to avoid straying off topic.

As others have mentioned about the time constraints in not being able to explain things to Shinji, after watching 3.33 again to double check, they have an entire segment devote to telling Shinji where Unit-01 is powering the Wunder, and that he can no longer pilot Unit-01, but he's in the DSS choker because he could cause another impact, and also as a punishment. Shinji asks why he's being punished but is ignored, and asks why he'll be blown up and is simply introduced to Sakura. The only useful information he gets is from Asuka after she fists the glass between her and Shinji telling him that its been 14 years, and that the curse of the EVA kept her looking so young.In the time the explained all that useless mishegoss, they could have given more useful information, like why things have changed so much, or that they are no longer with NERV, and are part of an organization hunting NERV. Had they been more selective with what they told him, he may not have run off and ended up causing Fourth Impact.

So a compounded issue with the Rebuild is that Misato, indirectly, has caused two impacts, pushing Shinji to fight for what he wanted against Zeruel, and not taking the time to explain things to Shinji, pushing him right into the hands of his father and NERV. They blame Shinji (i.e. his "punishment" in wearing the DSS choker), and they should know that when Shinji is faced with adversity, he scarpers. It happened twice in the Rebuilds, and Misato is aware of the circumstances behind both, yet in her hatred of Shinji, and her own avoidance of responsibility for not better guiding her young ward, chose to not level with him and instead treat him as a prisoner without explaining what he did wrong to be treated so poorly. So when Shinji has the chance to leave, with someone who he believes he's saved, he bolts, and Misato is upset by this, yet doesn't kill him when given the chance, showing some of the many contradictions 3.33 has.

Some have said that WILLE wanted Shinji back, which I don't entirely believe. They needed Unit-01 to power the Wunder. Shinji being recovered, after two supposed failed attempts doesn't support this assumption. However, why would they bother to bring him back just to strap a bomb to him? What is the point of that? Nothing that Misato does makes any sense, and it seems as though there are a lot of missing pieces behind the motivations of why Shinji was brought back. If they really wanted Shinji back, they would have treated him better.

Anyway, end of rant.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby barnett » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:41 pm

I think is quite an overreach to say that somehow Misato had any real role in Shinji's decision at the end of the second rebuild movie - probably he didn't even hear her. I think that scene wants to tell you more about Misato (and highlight the cruel irony of Shinji's choice) than about what Shinji did.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:42 am

@DarkBluePhoenix: Remember that 3.33 is not a dispassionate observation of what happens, by an unbiased observer; it is shown effectively from Shinji's perspective almost entirely. So we must consider the extent to which your complaints are actually complaints against Shinji's perception of the timescale and meaning of what is and isn't said, which has been successfully depicted.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:39 am

Eva Q separates the Shinji tolerant from the Shinji intolerant. Never has a fan base of an anime franchise full of such beautiful waifus and best-girls been so severely blue-balled from basically all of them. No outside perspectives, no alternate clear points of view, very little omniscient story-telling... just Shinji stuck in his own head most of the time. Not even the quick bits between Gendo and Fuyutsuki amount to a whole lot.

What’s really sad is that the way Shinji has been processing information in Q is the way he’s been processing information throughout the whole film series thus far. We get to see and feel how little he’s allowed and how much is kept from him in a very visceral way. Imagine the feeling of watching EoE, but only having exactly the info that Shinji had. This poor kid had no clue that the Human Instrumentality Project was a thing, and suddenly a giant white Rei is peering down at his Eva while other Evas chomp at his energy wings after all his friends lay dead. That’s almost what Q is like, but for its audience.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:55 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:@DarkBluePhoenix: Remember that 3.33 is not a dispassionate observation of what happens, by an unbiased observer; it is shown effectively from Shinji's perspective almost entirely. So we must consider the extent to which your complaints are actually complaints against Shinji's perception of the timescale and meaning of what is and isn't said, which has been successfully depicted.

Even from Shinji's view It doesn't make sense that they would ignore his questions and answer them rather than just telling him what amounts to a load of useless information. He was ignored and felt unwanted and he ran at the first opportunity. Even from Shinji's narrow perspective, this does seem like a major oversight on WILLE's part.

And to FreakyFilmFan4ever's point, I can totally agree that we the viewer are subjected to a large lack of perspective from the film as a whole, and leaving us as much in the dark as Shinji is still a jarring, and somewhat annoying experience.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby kuribo-04 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:17 pm

I think the fact that Wille doesn't act the optimal way is completely intentional.
They are either afraid to come out with the whole truth (leaving the 14 year thing to Sakura) or too violent (Asuka).
The movie seems to be saying that these things are an inevitability, hence why at the conclusion of it all we hear the Hedgehog's Dilemma theme.
(But it also ends on a positive note, so there's that.)
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:26 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Eva Q separates the Shinji tolerant from the Shinji intolerant. Never has a fan base of an anime franchise full of such beautiful waifus and best-girls been so severely blue-balled from basically all of them. No outside perspectives, no alternate clear points of view, very little omniscient story-telling... just Shinji stuck in his own head most of the time. Not even the quick bits between Gendo and Fuyutsuki amount to a whole lot.


Digging into the stuff between Gendo and Fuyutsuki had a great impact on my interpretation of the movie. Not just the scenes by themselves but the implications they carry for various other major events throughout the movie. I think I made a thread on the subject a couple years back, but I believe it's entirely possible to trace the masterful con Gendo plays on everyone starting right from the beginning. But it all takes place far in the background and has to be pieced together by the viewer so it might be too subtle.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:57 pm

^ I'd have to agree with that.

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:And to FreakyFilmFan4ever's point, I can totally agree that we the viewer are subjected to a large lack of perspective from the film as a whole, and leaving us as much in the dark as Shinji is still a jarring, and somewhat annoying experience.

See, I think that's an important distinction to make, too. It's not that Shinji wasn't told X, Y, or Z in Eva Q. We're used to Shinji not knowing a thing in the Evangelion franchise. Heck, we're used to information being actively withheld from Shinji in the Evangelion franchise. Just to compare NGE to NTE for kicks ands giggles, the Wille personnel's attempts to tell Shinji as much as they could before being interrupted by Rei is downright an anomaly as far as Eva is concerned. (Screw that, Misato and Ristuko's attempted transparency with Shinji in Q is unheard of when just comparing it to their actions in Jo and Ha combined.)

What we're not used to is being in the same boat as Shinji. That's the decisive aspect of Q. Audiences have been more than willing to leave Shinji in the dark for as long as possible (until forever in the case of NGE) just so long as the audience members get a bite of that sweet, juicy exposition pie. But, in Evangelion Q, Anno simply allowed his audience the only same amount of exposition as what Shinji has always had, and that didn't sit well with most people.

I still think Anno is a genius filmmaker for doing this, BTW. It'll be near impossible to convince me otherwise. He's made it so audiences are now more aware than ever when Shinji doesn't know something. You can watch all of NGE without considering very often how much information was withheld from Shinji. Q makes this impossible to do. And Anno does it in such a way that strengthens the character exploration of Shinji in the film. If you really want to know Shinji, Q will allow you to walk about 3 days in his shoes in ways NGE never allowed.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby SEELE-01 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:29 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Heck, we're used to information being actively withheld from Shinji in the Evangelion franchise.

Basically to everyone... 70% of the voiced cast of Evangelion is pretty much in the dark about what is going on... And even among those that do know, less than half know what is really going on...

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Just to compare NGE to NTE for kicks ands giggles, the Wille personnel's attempts to tell Shinji as much as they could before being interrupted by Rei is downright an anomaly as far as Eva is concerned. (Screw that, Misato and Ristuko's attempted transparency with Shinji in Q is unheard of when just comparing it to their actions in Jo and Ha combined.)

It seems logical to me... I mean, Shinji is known for breaking down and panicking when things go bad... Maybe Ritsuko and Misato were taking their sweet time to bring Shinji up to speed (I mean, it's been 14 years, a few days more won't hurt)...
Kaworu just gave it all to him all in one go, no warning, no nothing, and he ended up crying and drooling in bed wishing he hadn't asked... :uhh: wait...

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:What we're not used to is being in the same boat as Shinji. That's the decisive aspect of Q.

My opinion too...
In the end I don't think Rebuild can be evaluated if not a a whole... It would be like evaluating NGE having watched only up to episode 18... Arguably the best episodes of NGEvangelion are from 19 and onwards...
The ending of NTE has a lot to cover, but until we see it I don't think we should bash our heads over it... And even if the last movie does not cover it all, there's no reason not to believe that it will be not explained in other material... After all, some of the most important plot points of NGE are not implicitly nor explicitly in the series at all!
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 am

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:What we're not used to is being in the same boat as Shinji. That's the decisive aspect of Q. Audiences have been more than willing to leave Shinji in the dark for as long as possible (until forever in the case of NGE) just so long as the audience members get a bite of that sweet, juicy exposition pie. But, in Evangelion Q, Anno simply allowed his audience the only same amount of exposition as what Shinji has always had, and that didn't sit well with most people.

I wholeheartedly agree. It was jarring to be denied any sense of the bigger picture and being stuck in Shinji's shoes (and head) made the film less enjoyable. The lack of dramatic irony was more of a hindrance than a
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:09 pm

You know, I might be a fun expirement to re-edit NGE in a similar vein as Eva Q. Just leave leave the audience as much in the dark as Shinji is for as much as is feasibly possible. I'll bet Third Impact would seem somehow much more bizarre in that context than it already does in its current context.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:14 pm

When Rebuild is complete, I'm sure many people will look back differently on 3.0 with the last film giving closure.
I personally never had an issue with 3.0 though.
I think I insta-gave up on making sense of a lot of things of the plot.
And I think all the juicy stuff is on a more symbolic level in the film as well.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:13 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:You know, I might be a fun expirement to re-edit NGE in a similar vein as Eva Q. Just leave leave the audience as much in the dark as Shinji is for as much as is feasibly possible. I'll bet Third Impact would seem somehow much more bizarre in that context than it already does in its current context.

I can already imagine the confusion that it would bring. Now presenting: Neon Genesis Evangelion - The Machete Cut

kuribo-04 wrote:When Rebuild is complete, I'm sure many people will look back differently on 3.0 with the last film giving closure.

Well, looking at any film series as a whole would make it easier to judge the quality of the individual movies as they contribute to the whole.
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