Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby robersora » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:26 am

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:He rated it 2/10 on MAL... Hopefully, he'll make an in-depth analysis video


I'm pretty sure, it'll be part of is Pleeb&Weeb series. He elaborated that he was particularly taken aback by the visuals - he wondered what happened to the spot on bright design from all the other Eva-installments, and why Q was so messy. Anyways, he always makes clear, it's just his opinions and he loves to hear other opinions as well. He is very well articulated and more often than not I at least understand where he is coming from. So yeah, I'm looking forward to his exploration as well.
Just to be clear, I don't have this opinion of 3.33 at all.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:The only real argument that stands is that Eva Q tells a story that people don't like ... and doesn't even attempt to defend it based on any aspect of its filmmaking.


He calls it Otaku Gonzo Journalism.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:14 am

View Original Postrobersora wrote:He calls it Otaku Gonzo Journalism.

Never heard of Gonzo Journalism until I Googled it just now. So, it's basically reporting based upon one's feelings, and not based in any credible reality? Also, how can he give any claim to Gonzo Journalism and still make a video series studying the filmmaking techniques of Hideaki Anno because they're good? He can't have both of these things. Either Anno is a good director because he uses these techniques, or he's a bad director because he uses these techniques.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:24 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote: it's basically reporting based upon one's feelings, and not based in any credible reality?


It actually means 'self-insertion into the reportage'. The famous Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas is understood as a hallucinatory account of his real investigation into the murder of a Mexican activist by the LA police. There's an analagous genre of gonzo pornography which means 'first person perspective' much more strictly. You and he both are probably picking up on Hunter S. Thompson's general persona. Since you can't do 'gonzo' anime reviews at all I would prefer that he stopped using that term until he MAKES ANIME REAL.

He's done some good work but I can't really defend what he's saying until he...actually says it. I will watch with interest.
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Postby The Cruel » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:53 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:^ Yet they had time to explain what the DSS Choker was and that he was a danger to humanity. He did ask what was going on, but wasn't told anything. Even a brief explanation instead of the DSS choker mishegoss would have been a better use of time. The real reason he wasn't told anything is because of plot, but in-universe, they're just letting their hate get ahead of their common sense.

The whole situation in 3.0 was nothing more than total human failure.

If they told Shinji why they keep him imprisoned, then they would admit their contributory fault on N3I, for not foreseeing this. They think they could just put their blame on him. But even when they wouldn't tell him that, they should've done better in preventing Shinji to defect. They wasted almost one and a half decade in this futile war against NERV and SEELE and never thought through what they would do with Shinji.

But even if Shinji stayed with WILLE, it wouldn't make a difference. They would make him suffer anyway.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:58 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I just wonder why people find this so hard to understand or accept.

You don't seem to have understood my argument. It's not adding anything to the original story that's the issue, it's the quality of the story itself. Whether NTE wants to admit it or not, it's using NGE for much of it's quality, so if ur going to diminish something that would reduce the quality of NGE, ur also reducing the quality of NTE.

So far the only thing that these aforementioned mechanics seems to add is how different it is from NTE, the change doesn't actually enhance the quality of the story in anyway. Being different from NGE isn't on it's own, a reason to add something to a story, and it can't be used as a justification for a storytelling choice.

Example:
-> NTE does away with deep characterization of Asuka, characterization that furthers Shinji's own development in exchange for screen time for characters like Mari and other minor characters who are poorly developed and don't offer the story anything as the depth is spread thin with quality being shunned for quantity.
Typical response: -> NTE doesn't need developed characters because it's different!

That it's different doesn't justify the tradeoff here. What value is added to NTE's story by doing a way with deep development. Why is the tradeoff here worthwhile?

That it's different is not a defense for NTE's choices, and "u don't like it because it's different" is lazy strawmanning. Furthermore, I find it very dissapointing that a supposedly orginal story would recycle so much from the orginal story it supposedly is supposed to be different from. The only thing worse than a lack of quality is a lack of orginality. That you need to change the mechanics to make it feel different says much on how much of a rip off it is.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:03 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote: I’m more curious about those who are fans of NGE, have been on board for Eva Jo and Ha for what they were, but suddenly felt that Eva Q was somehow bad and terrible. This confuses me.

I never liked jo or ha either.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:11 pm

^ That’s cool. I’m glad you found where you feel you need to be with those movies.

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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:47 pm

Typical response: -> NTE doesn't need developed characters because it's different!

NTE doesn't need several developed characters.

characterization that furthers Shinji's own development in exchange for screen time for characters like Mari and other minor characters

If those scenes weren't there the movies would probably just be shorter.
We know about Shinji what we need.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:57 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:NTE doesn't need several developed characters.

And stories don't need any developed characters, that doesn't mean trading in a well developed supporting cast for more less developed characters made the story better. If the story isn't enhanced by a change, there's no point making it.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:04 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:We know about Shinji what we need.

Take "need" out of this. You don't need to have well developed characters, you also don't need need shallow characters. What a story "needs" tell us nothing.

A well developed supporting cast allows the main character to have more meaningful interactions that also offer a window to further their own characterization or character development. What benefit does not having a well developed supporting cast offer? Why does this benefit outweigh the benefit i just outlined? If you can't answer these questions, then you don't have any reason to think taking out character development was a good move.

Change shouldn't be made because it can be made, it should be made because there's something you're hoping to get out of this change.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:14 pm

^ Unfortunately for the Rebuilds, Shinji is the only main character, with everyone else being the supporting and ancillary cast of characters. All of the former main characters are shifted to supporting roles, only to act with Shinji and react to his decisions. Everything we see, save for a few of the fight scenes, are all from Shinji's perceptive, which is why we gain no insight into the other characters. While this is the reason I don't enjoy the rebuild as much as the anime or manga, this is what it was created to do. In short, Rebuild is more of a character study on Shinji which is why it focuses so heavily on him and his characterization, and not a meaningful story about everyone in the cast like many of us would rather it be.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:02 am

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:^ Unfortunately for the Rebuilds, Shinji is the only main character, with everyone else being the supporting and ancillary cast of characters. All of the former main characters are shifted to supporting roles, only to act with Shinji and react to his decisions.

Shinji was laso the main character in NGE, but it turns out well developed supporting characters can add to a main character. Only focusing on Shinji and flooding the movies with pointless additions like Mari rather than just focusing on a well developed supporting cast greatly decreased the quality of rebuilds. It's simply bad writing.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:43 am

http://forum.evageeks.org/post/876280/Rebuild-outside-of-Evageeks-Many-reactions/#876280
Answering on here as per "topic bitches" request.

What a story "needs" tell us nothing

It does though.
It shows which things missing cause a movie to be bad. And in NTE, mostly, I feel mothing is missing.

Well, 25% of the story are missing.
Imagine NGE at episode 19, with the rest missing.
We would only have hints at Asuka's real nature.

A well developed supporting cast allows the main character to have more meaningful interactions that also offer a window to further their own characterization or character development.

Yes, but that is just another tool.
Having a film be a musical allows you to add a lot of abstraction, having the characters say things they normally wouldn't, which allows to know things you wouldn't otherwise. That doesn't mean each film needs to be a musical.
Hitchcock's Vertigo really only has two actual characters, and we know almost nothing about them. It's still a masterpiece of character drama.
Different movies need different things. NTE is a different story than NGE.

What benefit does not having a well developed supporting cast offer? Why does this benefit outweigh the benefit i just outlined?

It's not necessarily that it has a benefit. It's just not bad either. Just like each potentially good thing that isn't in good movies.
Although in 3.0 it certainly was a benefit. It served the story.
Also, the fact that the supporting characters aren't as complex as in NGE doesn't mean they aren't at all. Anno is amazing at characterization and he communicates a lot with little.
And just to further illustrate what I was saying. What if in an alternate universe there is a version of NGE in which Hikari and the class teacher are really deep characters? Is NGE bad now for having those two be simple?
You could extend that infinitely.

Change shouldn't be made because it can be made, it should be made because there's something you're hoping to get out of this change.

You are still thinking about NTE in terms of NGE.
NTE doesn't change NGE, it's a separate thing with the same setup, because that setup allows for themes that Anno likes to be explored.
I just thought of another example. Anno's own Ritual had two characters only. It was another really good character piece.

Only focusing on Shinji and flooding the movies with pointless additions like Mari rather than just focusing on a well developed supporting cast greatly decreased the quality of rebuilds. It's simply bad writing.

I said this in another post, but Mari didn't eliminate other scenes. If she weren't there, the movie would just be shorter.
And it's not bad writing. Bad writing would be to shoehorn in as much character stuff as possible into the movie format, which is shorter and has a different rythm than the TV format, and have it be a half hearted attempt.
Anno made a story appropiate for the film medium.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:04 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I said this in another post, but Mari didn't eliminate other scenes. If she weren't there, the movie would just be shorter.
And it's not bad writing. Bad writing would be to shoehorn in as much character stuff as possible into the movie format, which is shorter and has a different rythm than the TV format, and have it be a half hearted attempt.
Anno made a story appropiate for the film medium.

Right. Compare NTE to something like that Fullmetal Alchemist movie that came out on netflix recently. It's little more than a compilation of iconic moments with most of the character related connective tissue cut out or severely truncated, but the story carries on like that material is still present. What you're left with is a disjointed mess of a film that requires you to have seen Brotherhood or read the manga to make sense of anything. It's barely a story at all.

NTE does the opposite. When something is excluded, the characters' personalities, relationships, and the trajectories of their arcs are re-written to properly reflect the change that has happened. You're not supposed to infer that the events and relationships still happened off-screen just because they were in NGE.

Take Asuka. The 2.0 CRC said they excluded her relationship with Kaji because there wasn't enough time for a movie to give such a complicated relationship the focus it required. The whole thing with Kyoko is also excluded, so her relationships with Misato, Rei and Shinji veer off in completely different directions than Soryu's did. She's very close to Misato, actually makes peace with Rei and her contemptupus attitude toward Shinji is first borne out of her belief that he's benefiting from nepotism and later because of his own actions.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:55 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Right. Compare NTE to something like that Fullmetal Alchemist movie that came out on netflix recently. It's little more than a compilation of iconic moments with most of the character related connective tissue cut out or severely truncated, but the story carries on like that material is still present. What you're left with is a disjointed mess of a film that requires you to have seen Brotherhood or read the manga to make sense of anything. It's barely a story at all.


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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:26 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Because Conqueror of Shamabal is a sequel...
I suspect Blue Baslisk was talking about this -- http://comicbook.com/anime/2018/01/24/f ... vie-anime/
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:12 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:I suspect Blue Baslisk was talking about this -- http://comicbook.com/anime/2018/01/24/f ... vie-anime/

i'd assume a flop, but if netflix is making it...

:huh: could it be good?
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:34 am

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:Shinji was laso the main character in NGE, but it turns out well developed supporting characters can add to a main character. Only focusing on Shinji and flooding the movies with pointless additions like Mari rather than just focusing on a well developed supporting cast greatly decreased the quality of rebuilds. It's simply bad writing.

No, Rei and Asuka were always intended to be main characters. they each faced an Angel directly messing with their mind, and all had well exposited backstories. I also wouldn't call Mari pointless. We just don't know enough about her to make that judgement, yes from poor writing, but we know she's a capable pilot. And by your reasoning, if you think Mari is pointless, then with the amount of exposited backstory we have on the rest of the cast, such as the AAA Wunder, they may as well be "pointless" as well.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:39 am

^ The only fault that can give NTE within terms of handling Asuka and Rei as supporting cast members is that they kept their “Main Character Anime Hair.” A simple redesign would have fixed that. (But, c’mon, do you really want that iconic visual contrast eliminated from these characters? I think not.) Other than that, narratively speaking, there is no technical or structural issue with how NTE handles these characters as suppprting cast members.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:34 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:I suspect Blue Baslisk was talking about this -- http://comicbook.com/anime/2018/01/24/f ... vie-anime/

Yep, that's the one I was talking about! It's a hacked-up retelling of the series up to the final battle with Lust. Great visuals, writing not so much. It also cuts out several major characters like Bradley, Scar and Armstrong.

Taken just on its own, 1.0 seems kind of like that. It looks like a truncated version of the first few episodes with some things shuffled around for time or whatnot, but then 2.0 and 3.0 build on those changed and give additional context once you can see the payoff.
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