Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:49 pm

I can't call the end of 2.22 a "tantrum," since Shinji had already done on the 10th Angel itself. And, before the whole "save Rei" mode Shinji went in directly afterthat fight, that call only be called "vengeful" at best. You see it all the time in the Old Testament, along with "Nebuchadnezzar" and most of NME's other religious references.

That being said, I wonder of Kaworu won't introduce elements and themes more common to the New Testament. Eh. Just a thought.

View Original PostNa7e wrote:Pity, Gendo did more to save Asuka's life than Shinji ever did. And, gets told by his own flesh and blood the single cruelest statement ever uttered in Evangelion, and even then if someone told me too lose someone important too, I'd kick there teeth in without a second thought. I have more sympathy for Gendo than I do than Shinji in that scene, and frankly the movie really.

Gendo didn't do anything to save Asuka in that scene. Unless by "save Asuka" you mean "putting Asuka out of her misery." It was either death by Shinji's hand or death by Dummy Plug.

And, we don't know Gendo's back story in NME. We just saw an opaque Yui and assumed Gendo NME equals Gendo NGE. And seeing as how the viewers presumably know much more information about Gendo that Shinji does at this point in time, there's no way that Shinji understand Gendo enough to avoid relationship pitfalls. It's what creates drama. Both are flawed characters. Evangelion has always been full of them (except Kaworu... and maybe Kaji.)

And I've been typing this whole time without realizing that painting Gendo as a hero was never attempted before in Evangelion discussion. We're either pioneering a new frontier or have reached a new moral low. I'm not sure which yet.

On that same note, when did Shinji hatred on the part of an Evangelion fan turn into franchise hatred?

These movies are doing weird things to you guys.

View Original PostReichu wrote:I didn't think I'd see you resorting to the tired "Shinji grows some balls" bit. :um:

Now look what you've made me do!

Poor choice of words on my part.

I guess I should say that it was Asuka's incident that fuels what he did during the 10th Angel battle.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:54 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I can't call the end of 2.22 a "tantrum," since that would imply that Shinji would be aware of what he was doing. Tantrums also involve venting one's anger out on something, which he had already done on the 10th Angel itself.

Little kids in the middle of temper tantrums are cognizant? It seems to me that they're completely out of control and only give a shit about that one thing they have to have, or that one thing that has to be right.

The awakened Eva-01 continued to beat the shit out of the Angel after Shinji declared "Give Ayanami back!" (= "Give me my binky back!"), so I'm not sure what you're getting after there.

And I've been typing this whole time without realizing that painting Gendo as a hero was never attempted before in Evangelion discussion.

I'm pretty sure it's been done before. (Usually as a reaction against the unrepenting "Gendo is nothing but an asshole and that's all there is to it" folks.)

I guess I should say that it was Asuka's indecent that fuels what he did during the 10th Angel battle.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:50 pm

Fixed. Multitasking it its own punishment.

Blah, I'm just gonna focus on one thing for now. My contributions are becoming kinda useless and nonsensical.

*walks away from thread for a bit*
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Postby Na7e » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:56 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I'm pretty sure it's been done before. (Usually as a reaction against the unrepenting "Gendo is nothing but an asshole and that's all there is to it" folks.)


Well, I never said Gendo was heroic, I don't recall ever even mentioning that at all. But, Gendo's plan was far more preferable to Shinji's, since Asuka still is alive. Shinji's was letting himself, Asuka, and everyone else die because he didn't want to make a hard decision. His inaction is far more damning since he was told back in 1.11 if an angel reaches Terminal Dogma. And, in the immediate aftermath continuing all the way to the ending he isn't even remotely sympathetic.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:03 pm

Shinji had a lot of things by the end of 2.22, but I don't think a "plan" was one of them. So by default, Gendo's was better simply because it followed the definition of the word "plan." I don't think either had the well being of humanity in mind during any of these events.

Eh. We'll see if Shinji gets his nose rubbed in anything in 3.0 and 4.0. Being stuck in an Eva tends to do that to him. (Ep. 16 and 20 from NGE, for example.)
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Postby riffraff11235 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:28 pm

Honestly, it's hard for me to stop gawking at the animation whenever I watch Rebuild. Ramiel's redesign was just too good. :kensuke_drool:

I'm really trying to withhold judgment on Rebuild until I've seen all of it, although I must say that I thoroughly enjoyed the first two installments. We still have no idea which direction it will take in the last two movies, but I trust Anno to give us a good show. Has he ever failed us before?

...Don't answer that.

I'll just leave this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIELcIRu9Hg
It's a Rebuild/EOE AMV that I really liked.

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Postby Chrad » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:41 pm

A common argument I've noticed in the endless battle between hardened Asuka fans and the Rebuild loyalists is that the story is a tetralogy and is supposed to have a more linear and 'movie-like' plot progression. Therefore, it only makes sense that the story is centred on Shinji, Rei and Gendo from start to finish; expecting the focus to shift to newly introduced characters like Asuka or Mari is illogical.

I wonder, will this line be retired if 3.0 devotes as much screen time to Kaworu as the marketing is suggesting?

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:20 pm

Marketing also suggests they'll be plenty of Asuka screentime, too. Should be interesting to see what the pacing and character focus is like in 3.0. Assuming there's only 3 or 4 Angels left total in NME (Hi, Kaworu?), that should be plenty of breathing room for the characters to be expanded upon.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:42 am

I got here from clicking the link Reichu posted in the locked "Anno Should Regret Rebuild" thread, and read the last few posts.

Man, were we unprepared for Eva Q.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:24 pm

I love the notion that there's somehow a divide between "hardened Asuka fans" and "Rebuild loyalists". I must have missed the memo on that one!
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Sachi » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:21 pm

If you recall, Asuka's (mis)treatment in 2.0 was one of the great arguments here on the forums back when the film was released, and a deal breaker for those not yet sold by what Rebuild was offering. The dynamics have shifted since the release of 3.0, and the great divide is now in the form of "3.0 is the best/worst thing to happen to Eva".
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:30 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:If you recall, Asuka's (mis)treatment in 2.0 was one of the great arguments here on the forums back when the film was released, and a deal breaker for those not yet sold by what Rebuild was offering. The dynamics have shifted since the release of 3.0, and the great divide is now in the form of "3.0 is the best/worst thing to happen to Eva".


True. But, in hindsight, the real issue there, at least for me, was that gratuitous shot of her crotch, which remains the low point of the films for me. Most of the rest -- the cooking subplot in particular -- can be justified as setup for Q, but that one bit of fanservice remains a sore point (same with the test suit, come to think of it).

That said, I disagree with the notion that Q has any bearing on Eva in general; it is neither the best nor worst thing to happen to the franchise, but it did do a bang-up job of rehabilitating the new movies and their story.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Geometer » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:50 pm

Well, Q certainly is the most interesting thing to happen to eva out of NTE. Eva had pulled this many feels out of me since well EoE. If I saw Shinji I don't know if I would hug him or strangle him. Problem is everyone else is just really isn't there.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:12 pm

The Asuka crotch shot is indeed the nadir of the Rebuild series.

Really the only constant about Rebuild here is the hyperbolic reactions.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:54 am

I dunno. We've gone from criticizing Eva Ha's shot of Asuka's clothed crotch to criticizing Eva Q's shot of Mari's floppy clothed boobs. And the funny thing is that Eva Q is also somewhat fixated on Asuka's crotch. Granted, the cinematography was a bit more motivated in Q, following Asuka's fists from her pockets to her sides, a couple dramatic low-angle shots of her confronting Shinji, and her standing on top of a platform so the shot-reverse-shot lands on her butt, but the attention to her privates is still there in Q as well as Ha, and I haven't really seen it addressed here yet.

I still wonder if this isn't somehow weirdly relevant to the story or the themes in a way we're not seeing yet. Or it could just be needlessly creepy. Either way, it's uncomfortable and awkward to watch in a way that doesn't seem to be deliberate.

Edit: Now that I think about it, even Mari's floppy boob shot was somewhat motivated because it was a graphic-match shot, following the similarly framed low-angle shot of her Unit 08. But it still feels a tad weird having the animators go crazy with jiggle physics like that.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Geometer » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:15 pm

Its seems a lot of Shinji fans don't like the rebuilds or at least Q very much. Ironically its because they are so Shinji focused. He is the only one to have his flaws exposed. Asuka, Misato, Rei(arguably), even Ristuko are all generally more likable and less flawed than in NGE. In fact they are all quite admirable. Plus we have Mari and later Sakura who seem to be pretty good people . Meanwhile Shinji is still more or less his same screwed up self. I think putting a Shinji who still is very flawed around "better" characters + a more compressed story + making his big fuck up earlier in the story makes him seem like a worthless failure of a human being. You could say the same about him in NGE, but seeing other flawed characters, a slower story, and him not making his big fuck till the very end made him a lot more sympathetic. It in a strange way was almost more "fair" to him. Q almost comes off as mean spirited showing how miserable and worthless this stupid kid is really is, while everyone else is at least competent and stable(except Gendo, Fuyu and Rei Q). Of course this is an unfair assessment of the rebuilds because we still have the final movie, but I think it can explain why people feel negative towards Q. Ironically Shinji probably will end up in a much better position than he was in at EoE, he is already at hit rock bottom and at least Asuka still cares enough to drag him out. He can only go up from here.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Sachi » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:18 am

^ As someone who has always related most strongly with Shinji and have always been a fan. I'll attest that I instantly loved how Shinji was handled in Q. His struggles are more or less the same as before, and the small differences in his character that began with 1.0 have appropriately influenced the way he reacts when things go to hell by the time of Q. And maybe it's also because I've grown up a bit since NGE, and having made my made mistakes of my own and gone through times where I've acted out of stubbornness or desperation, I now feel an even closer connection to Shinji's character than I had previously thanks to Q and the way Rebuild as a whole has painted him in a new light. So, at least from my perspective, I'm not seeing how it's the Shinji fans in particular that dislike Q. I would think they might like him more, and would have more of a personal stake in seeing the way his journey ends this time around. Maybe it's just me. :shrug:
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:54 am

Interestingly enough, much of the complaints involving my Shinji deal more with how "mean" Eva Q is to him, and not because of how much screen time he got as opposed to the rest of the characters. Prior to NTE, I was used to the consensus that Shinji was the boring/whiny character that people seemed to dislike. Now that Eva Q's released, Shinji has been seen mostly as a more sympathetic character by more Western audiences than ever before. That speaks a lot to the quality of writing there. (Or, maybe it just speaks to how much Western culture has changed since 1995, or maybe a little of both.)
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:39 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Interestingly enough, much of the complaints involving my Shinji deal more with how "mean" Eva Q is to him, and not because of how much screen time he got as opposed to the rest of the characters. Prior to NTE, I was used to the consensus that Shinji was the boring/whiny character that people seemed to dislike. Now that Eva Q's released, Shinji has been seen mostly as a more sympathetic character by more Western audiences than ever before. That speaks a lot to the quality of writing there. (Or, maybe it just speaks to how much Western culture has changed since 1995, or maybe a little of both.)


Note how long it took before we got a dub of Q. I think the fact that Spencer didn't have a chance to wreck Shinji's performance until years after the fact probably helped audiences give him a fair shake based on the story at hand rather than on how his American VA portrays him.
Last edited by Bagheera on Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:26 am

Huh...... never thought of that.
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