Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby aboose » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:54 pm

I'm sure this has been said before and posts will inevitably continue to question or defend the quality of Rebuild even after I make this comment, but I'll say it anyway:

How can you judge the quality of Rebuild if Rebuild isn't even done yet? It's only half way completed...

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:16 pm

View Original Postaboose wrote:I'm sure this has been said before and posts will inevitably continue to question or defend the quality of Rebuild even after I make this comment, but I'll say it anyway:

How can you judge the quality of Rebuild if Rebuild isn't even done yet? It's only half way completed...

The same way I judged Ben Hur, The Ten Commandments, or Fiddler on the Roof when the movies just suddenly stopped and this weird "Intermission" title card appeared, and I just completely gave up with the movies. I mean, sure, there seemed to be suggestions that the story would continue after the confusing "Intermission" card, but I wasn't gonna wait. The wedding scene in Fiddler was as pointless as Mari in 2.22, they spent little time on Ben Hur and Messala's relationship, and Seti's arc was really unresolved. Obviously, this means that these characters are horribly written.

Yeah, I probably made all of the fans of these movies really mad, but whatever. If you can't finish up a story in the first half of the story, then there's no reason to assume the rest of the story is any good. None at all. I dunno, though. Maybe the stuff after the weird "Intermission" title cards will make up for everything. I'm not gonna get my hopes up for it, though. I don't expect these movies to be great or anything. Everyone knows that the first Ten Commandments movie was the best one anyway, so why did they even bother with the Charlton Heston remake anyway? I think it was just Cecil B. DeMille doing nothing more than grabbing for more money and playing around with fancier special effects.

I think the same could be said for the NME movies, if one really wanted to say such things.
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Postby EvangelionFan » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:19 pm

View Original Postaboose wrote:I'm sure this has been said before and posts will inevitably continue to question or defend the quality of Rebuild even after I make this comment, but I'll say it anyway:

How can you judge the quality of Rebuild if Rebuild isn't even done yet? It's only half way completed...


I'll echo FFF4E with the sentiment that, supposing the films that are already out can't hold up on their own, why would people want to see the remaining films?
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Postby Warren Peace » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:00 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:The same way I judged Ben Hur, The Ten Commandments, or Fiddler on the Roof when the movies just suddenly stopped and this weird "Intermission" title card appeared, and I just completely gave up with the movies. I mean, sure, there seemed to be suggestions that the story would continue after the confusing "Intermission" card, but I wasn't gonna wait.


That's awesome. That whole post is awesome.

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Postby aboose » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:32 am

View Original PostEvangelionFan wrote:I'll echo FFF4E with the sentiment that, supposing the films that are already out can't hold up on their own, why would people want to see the remaining films?


I dunno (and this is response to FFF4E too), why don't you use the same argument for the original NGE series then?

These movies were all supposed to come out in a single year apparently, but production nixed that idea. I have the tendency to evaluate the movies as an entire package, myself... I guess if you really want to look at them as standalone films, then that would make some of these points legitimate, but why isn't the same logic applied to the series then?

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Postby EvangelionFan » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:37 am

View Original Postaboose wrote:I dunno (and this is response to FFF4E too), why don't you use the same argument for the original NGE series then?


People have and will continue to do so. If a viewer doesn't take to the first few episodes, or thinks that they aren't their kind of show, can you really 'fault' them if they stop watching it there when those early episodes are hardly indicative of the episodes later in the series? I hope not, because if that isn't convincing enough then I suggest you go and read every post where someone rants about (for instance) Magmadiver, because in many cases the only episode they have a problem with is just Magmadiver.

And in the same way, Rebuild: 1.xx and 2.xx aren't necessarily telling us the kind of films that 3.0 and 4.0 will be, for all one viewer knows these films could be absolutely their kind of movies, but that doesn't mean it'll change their mind if they were unimpressed by the first two flicks.

Edit: Eventually it will be useful to view Rebuild as a collective film unit, but even so, by nature of the medium itself, there is going to be a need to look at the films independently and that need isn't going to disappear once all of the films are out.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:43 am

The intermission strawman is ridiculous as all the other ones thrown out by the 'no one can say anything negative yet' crowd. I've yet to encounter a person who dislikes Rebuild who refuses to watch the next installments. It's a multi-year intermission and guess what, folks, people are gonna talk about the movie in the lobby as the seasons pass. And they might even not care for it so far. I know, shocking. For crying out loud.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:58 am

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:I've yet to encounter a person who dislikes Rebuild who refuses to watch the next installments.
Well, I'm still reserving judgement, but I'm waiting for it to be complete before deciding whether to watch the [s]fanfic[/s] new post-Ramiel storyline.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:44 pm

I was writing sarcastically. But anyway, sure, people can have their negative opinions about the film. I just kinda chuckle at statements about Asuka or Mari being underdeveloped characters when the entire series itself is only half-way developed. The state of the series kind of answers the reasons to its current state of development in that regard.

...Which is why we have a lot of people who either liked or disliked 2.22 all hyped up for 3.0 later this year. More development! Possible answers (but not likely) to questions!
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:59 pm

I still don't get why people are going on about the "wait and see" business when the issue is not stuff that's left unresolved so much as the way things have been handled so far. The distinction's easy to see by looking at Mari and Shikinami: we still know nothing about Mari, but will presumably learn more in Q. That's fine. Her appearances so far have been cryptic but otherwise competently executed, so no harm no foul there. But the same is not true of Shikinami -- the complaint with her is not what we don't know but rather how her scenes in the story thus far have been handled. There might be all sorts of awesome shit in Q and Final, and that's great! But that won't change the fact that her arc in Break was bungled. An awesome second half does not make a crappy first half less crappy! It just makes the whole a mixed bag, a work with a crappy first half that redeems itself later on.

In short we don't have to see the whole work to judge how the parts we've seen have been handled so far. Since that's exactly what we're doing here how about we talk about the actual arguments being presented and not the straw men attempting to distract us from such?
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:26 pm

I don't think it's quite the straw man to compare character arcs with similar arcs throughout literature, especially since techniques build upon themselves in literary history in order to compile the array of techniques we use today. For example, we can judge the special effects in the prequel Star Wars films from 1999- 2005 as less than stellar because we've seen better effects in 1993 with Jurassic Park and 1999 with The Matrix, and all three films shared the same effects studio, ILM. The same thing goes for advancements in thought in writing and cinematography, and how some filmmakers spring-board from the progressions made by the filmmakers before them. In the case of motion picture, it's called studying the history, language, and progression of techniques in film.

Shikinami's arc established a lot within the very short amount of time given to her, and I actually consider that mildly impressive given the circumstances. Sure, I would have liked to have a bit more breathing room within each scene, but adding more scenes would have made the character's arc feel needlessly prolonged and redundant. And when you think about it, asking for a tad bit more breathing room within select individual scenes that actually establish the important elements of the character is kind of a small gripe in the grand scheme of things. A legitimate gripe, yes, but a small one.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:18 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Shikinami's arc established a lot within the very short amount of time given to her, and I actually consider that mildly impressive given the circumstances. Sure, I would have liked to have a bit more breathing room within each scene, but adding more scenes would have made the character's arc feel needlessly prolonged and redundant. And when you think about it, asking for a tad bit more breathing room within select individual scenes that actually establish the important elements of the character is kind of a small gripe in the grand scheme of things. A legitimate gripe, yes, but a small one.


It's also legitimate to note that it didn't establish enough to make the Bardiel incident really pay off, since her connection with Shinji was never developed properly. There was really no reason it had to be Shikinami in the entry plug; it could have been anyone else and the effect would have been the same (and indeed that was exactly the case in NGE, where Shinji never knew who it was until all was said and done). So, with that being the case, why was she even there?

Yes, the crew managed a lot given that they had very little to work with in her case, but they've admitted in interviews that they didn't know what to do with her and it really, really shows. And of course that's not the only legitimate complaint we can levy against the NTE: the fact that Asuka's and Rei's arcs are now directly tied to Shinji's is a disappointment, and the handling of the final act left a lot to be desired (well, mileage varies on that, admittedly, but reaction to it seems to have been decidedly mixed). Even if these are all minor things they do add up, and they have nothing to do with the fact that the NTE is currently an unfinished work.
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Postby Ceimoa Nan » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:14 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:An awesome second half does not make a crappy first half less crappy!


Actually, sometimes it does, for me at least. I'm thinking of Super Paper Mario. I didn't like the first half of the game very much because it seemed, well, 2-dimensional. The gameplay was very basic, the art design was kinda blah, the plot and characters were too simplistic, even for an RPG-derived Mario game. Then, around Chapters 3 and 4, I started to notice there was more going on than I realized. By Chapter 6, the gameplay was loads of fun, and I was thinking, "Wow, I was not expecting the story of a Mario game to be this engrossing." I realized it was a deep game masquerading as a forgettable one for the first half, and I respected that, whether intentional or not. It was a sucker punch.

Eva's original series did something similar. The tone of the first half sort of lulls the audience into a false sense of security, even though it's sprinkled with the dark, eery moments that foreshadow the tone of the second half. It's a sucker punch. We can even say this about just the first two Rebuild films. 1.0 made me think it was just an enhanced remake, so 2.0 came as even more of a surprise when it started to go "off the rails."

This doesn't really have anything to do with your comment, though. I just wanted to point something out. There are certainly plenty of cases where what you said is true.

Eureka Seven, for example. It was the creator's intent to have the first and second halves focus on very different things. But while I loved the second half, that doesn't make me remember the first half any more fondly.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:20 pm

See, I never thought the 9th Angel's scene was completely reliant on Asuka's relationship (or lack thereof) with Shinji. Shinji was just upset that he was killing another human being, namely Asuka, but never felt remorse over the loss of his relationship with her. Every time he mentioned Asuka during and after that event, it was in light of the fact that he had to kill another human being.

Instead, I always felt that the 9th Angel scene was reliant on Asuka's character arc as a whole, as was established not seconds before hand with her phone conversation with Misato. It was the fact that she was slowly establishing relationships with many people, rather than distancing herself away from people like she mentioned before. In that sense, the "Today is the Time for Goodbye" moment was not in relation with Shinji, but was a reflection on her coming out of her shell to make contact with other people for the first time, then having to say goodbye rather abruptly.

There still isn't a lot of time spent on that aspect of Shikinami (her two hand-held game shots and initial disdain and general abrasiveness toward social activity is the only visual evidence of it), but it is better fleshed out that forcing a romance between Asuka and Shinji that isn't there in order for the scene to work, and it does fit better within the context of the film as a whole.

This doesn't mean that the story artists didn't know what to do with Asuka, but that makes what they came up with for the character even more impressive.
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Postby aboose » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:46 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I still don't get why people are going on about the "wait and see" business when the issue is not stuff that's left unresolved so much as the way things have been handled so far. The distinction's easy to see by looking at Mari and Shikinami: we still know nothing about Mari, but will presumably learn more in Q. That's fine. Her appearances so far have been cryptic but otherwise competently executed, so no harm no foul there. But the same is not true of Shikinami -- the complaint with her is not what we don't know but rather how her scenes in the story thus far have been handled.


-shrug- I guess we disagree on a more fundamental level, because while I agree that Asuka's participation in the 2nd movie was different than NGE, it wasn't necessarily bungled... and I accept the fact that she's still alive, so perhaps the events that occurred may well set up for important things to come in the next few movies.

But that's a different thread.

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Postby esselfortium » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:06 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:See, I never thought the 9th Angel's scene was completely reliant on Asuka's relationship (or lack thereof) with Shinji. Shinji was just upset that he was killing another human being, namely Asuka, but never felt remorse over the loss of his relationship with her. Every time he mentioned Asuka during and after that event, it was in light of the fact that he had to kill another human being.

Intentional or otherwise, the emotional disconnect you're describing here is a large part of what makes it feel so forced and misguided when the film attempts to portray Shinji as the sympathetic victim of the tragedy.

There still isn't a lot of time spent on that aspect of Shikinami (her two hand-held game shots and initial disdain and general abrasiveness toward social activity is the only visual evidence of it), but it is better fleshed out that forcing a romance between Asuka and Shinji that isn't there in order for the scene to work, and it does fit better within the context of the film as a whole.

This doesn't mean that the story artists didn't know what to do with Asuka, but that makes what they came up with for the character even more impressive.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that "forcing a romance" would be a particularly good or necessary way of fleshing out Shinji's side of their interactions.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:35 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Intentional or otherwise, the emotional disconnect you're describing here is a large part of what makes it feel so forced and misguided when the film attempts to portray Shinji as the sympathetic victim of the tragedy.

He's depicted as the hand being forced to do Gendo's evil bidding, and nothing more. In fact, that most of Shinji's rant before running away for the second time, and a large part of him growing the balls to do what he did during the 10th Angel battle.
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Postby Na7e » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:51 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:He's depicted as the hand being forced to do Gendo's evil bidding, and nothing more.


Pity, Gendo did more to save Asuka's life than Shinji ever did. And, gets told by his own flesh and blood the single cruelest statement ever uttered in Evangelion, and even then if someone told me too lose someone important too, I'd kick there teeth in without a second thought. I have more sympathy for Gendo than I do than Shinji in that scene, and frankly the movie really.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:In fact, that most of Shinji's rant before running away for the second time, and a large part of him growing the balls to do what he did during the 10th Angel battle.


LOL...because I totally didn't want to kick Shinji's teeth in for being a stupid cowardly dick...and it's not like I'm the only one who see's 2.22's ending as the mother of all tantrums.

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Postby Ornette » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:20 pm

The criticism of Rebuild as a whole, without having seen the rest of the movies, isn't much different than saying Rebuild (as a whole) is awesome, without having seen the rest of the movies. It doesn't really make much sense.

View Original PostNa7e wrote:LOL...because I totally didn't want to kick Shinji's teeth in for being a stupid cowardly dick...and it's not like I'm the only one who see's 2.22's ending as the mother of all tantrums.

Nah, that was EoE Shinji, stupid cowardly dick leading up to being in an Eva and being handed the fate of the rest of humanity, answering that he wanted everyone to die even multiple times after the attempts of "are you sure?".
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Postby Reichu » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:32 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:In fact, that most of Shinji's rant before running away for the second time, and a large part of him growing the balls to do what he did during the 10th Angel battle.

I didn't think I'd see you resorting to the tired "Shinji grows some balls" bit. :um:

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