Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

Moderators: New Moderators, Board Staff

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 59
Posts: 19736
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:45 am

And to all the children -- just chill, man!
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|G+|MAL
Avatar: 三ノ輪銀は勇者である
SHE WAS ELEVEN YEARS OLD
SHE LIKED TO HELP PEOPLE

Bagheera
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 18626
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:49 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I'd hate to ruin this whole vibe I seem to get about this mistake somehow ruining 1.11 specifically and how much better the original show was in comparison,


That's not really what anyone is saying though, is it? The criticism I'm seeing is that 1.xx improved some elements and dropped the ball on others, which is an entirely different matter. Personally I like Ramiel's aesthetics a lot, I like some of the remixed music tracks leading up to the scene, and I like a lot of the visuals used in bringing it to life (particularly when Shinji fires; that retreating shot passing from him out through Unit 01 is really good). But that said I do think they made the cannon and the firing sequence overly complex, and that made Rei's absence a lot more noticable in 1.xx than it was in the series. I also think it was kinda sad that they dropped the warping effect of the two shots interacting with one another, but that's a separate issue (just a matter of preference, really).
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 59
Posts: 19736
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:01 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I also think it was kinda sad that they dropped the warping effect of the two shots interacting with one another
Yes -- they really should have kept that; but that was the only thing that struck me when watching that scene.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|G+|MAL
Avatar: 三ノ輪銀は勇者である
SHE WAS ELEVEN YEARS OLD
SHE LIKED TO HELP PEOPLE

Seele00TextOnly
Phospholipid Bilayer
Phospholipid Bilayer
User avatar
Age: 37
Posts: 1806
Joined: Sep 23, 2007
Location: Wilmington, NC
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Seele00TextOnly » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:55 pm

The way that Ramiel's first shot 'misses' in the NGE version is different than the way it's presented in NME. The type of effect the blast is shown to be having (aside from the lack of repurcussions) is greater in NME. They're substantially different in these and following ways.

Rei not intercepting that attack makes sense because Shinji was firing at that precise moment and she'd be in the way, and because the blast struck further away (or at least seemed to; again the blast is so heightened in impact and radius visually that it makes little sense in NME that the Eva and the weapon remained in place). In NME they have swapped out this 'both fire at the same time' phenomena for an actual volley exchange. The extended time length of this part of the battle and of the blast does indeed beg the question 'Why no reaction shot of Rei or her Eva at all, where is she, etc.'. Furthermore it's like, 'Why is Ramiel missing with this shot?' In NGE the beams-bending-eachother effect makes sense from a sort of electromagnetic physics perspective, at least colloquially. This time I simply don't get it. Is it because Ramiel's wounded?

The point is, I feel the entire sequence of the actual exchange between Shinji, Rei, and Ramiel feels more tense, more believable, and more well executed in the original. Are the new theatrics for most part interesting and perhaps an improvement? Sure. Ramiel transforming and the sequence leading up to the exchange with all the missiles was very nice. The way Ramiel dies is better.

And no, I certainly wasn't saying 1.11 was ruined by any of this, or that anything was 'ruined'. I stated a preference after you stated a preference, and I used supporting evidence and data. You used smug sarcasm and belittling.

In short, nuance exists. So does politeness. Please do us all a favor by recognizing and utilizing them in forum posts.

Edit: Attempted to improve formatting by separating and distinguishing first sentences. Nothing major.
Last edited by Seele00TextOnly on Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Check out my AMVs: Kaji/Misato in "18 Apostolos" & Kaworu and the Harpies in "The Beast That Shouted 'I' at the Heart of the World" w/ music by Esselfortium!!
Shinji embraces the otaku empowerment fantasy and dives headfirst into his mother's basement. -Chrad
Acts of man are better than acts of god. -Misato

Ornette
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 43
Posts: 11725
Joined: Dec 26, 2005
Location: Pittsburgh/New York City
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ornette » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:17 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:This time I simply don't get it. Is it because Ramiel's wounded?

Presumably, but there's more. Like I've mentioned elsewhere, everyone (including the audience I think) had assumed that was it for Ramiel. The build-up of music and tension ended, blood splurted out (and up to this point, we all know what that meant), it wasn't until the cliche'ed "Did we get it?" was asked that there was any doubt Ramiel was actually not dead. Return fire was toward the entire side of the mountain (you can see the fires of the entire mountain facing Ramiel after the return fire), because up until that point, Ramiel was focused on a bunch of mosquito stings from all around it (which was the whole point of firing all that conventional weaponry at Ramiel, so the Angel would be distracted from what the real attack was going to be), it gets almost killed, and it returns fire ASAP in the general direction of where the shot came from. You can also see that Shinji doesn't actually get hit with the beam, the mountain-side does. This gave Ramiel time for a targeted attack against the threat (otherwise Ramiel would have just continued firing in the general direction), one that would most definitely hit Shinji directly, and that was blocked by Rei, just like she said. There was no reason, even if she was ready and anticipating a return fire from a presumably dead Angel, for her to block the attack on the side of the mountain (eventhough it did do splash damage to the surroundings).

I have no problem with any of this, it makes perfect sense to me.
Paganini's 14th Caprice in Eb Maj - recordings from 2004 -Vinyl collection at Discogs.
I have a haiku,
Okay, Okay, here it is,
damn, I forgot it

Seele00TextOnly
Phospholipid Bilayer
Phospholipid Bilayer
User avatar
Age: 37
Posts: 1806
Joined: Sep 23, 2007
Location: Wilmington, NC
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Seele00TextOnly » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:56 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:There was no reason, even if she was ready and anticipating a return fire from a presumably dead Angel, for her to block the attack on the side of the mountain (eventhough it did do splash damage to the surroundings).

That is all sensible enough, but it would have made more sense to me for her to jump in front of Shinji anyway then, not knowing if the Angel was going to initially hit him or miss like that, also not knowing if it would move its beam while firing it to smother the whole area (it had demonstrated this moving beam capability with the missiles moments earlier). Again, this is all highly minutiae, but I think the logic overall of the Eva vs Angel part of the battle flows and works better before because of these numerous things. And yes this is all just opinion stuff. But I do agree the before-Eva part of it makes a lot more sense and is more spectacular in the NME version.
Check out my AMVs: Kaji/Misato in "18 Apostolos" & Kaworu and the Harpies in "The Beast That Shouted 'I' at the Heart of the World" w/ music by Esselfortium!!
Shinji embraces the otaku empowerment fantasy and dives headfirst into his mother's basement. -Chrad
Acts of man are better than acts of god. -Misato

Ornette
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 43
Posts: 11725
Joined: Dec 26, 2005
Location: Pittsburgh/New York City
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ornette » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:59 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:That is all sensible enough, but it would have made more sense to me for her to jump in front of Shinji anyway then, not knowing if the Angel was going to initially hit him or miss like that, also not knowing if it would move its beam while firing it to smother the whole area (it had demonstrated this moving beam capability with the missiles moments earlier).

If that's the case, she should have just been in front of Shinji the entire time, in both versions of the fight, since, in both versions of the fight, Shinji had no problem firing with her in front (blocking an attack). Why wasn't she in front blocking any potential attack from the get go in NGE or in Rebuild?
Paganini's 14th Caprice in Eb Maj - recordings from 2004 -Vinyl collection at Discogs.
I have a haiku,
Okay, Okay, here it is,
damn, I forgot it

Warren Peace
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 86
Posts: 1737
Joined: May 28, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Warren Peace » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:11 pm

Because it would water down the scene. Rei being there the entire time robs tension -- "oh, it's cool if he misses, there's that shield". Having her leap into action allows a heroic moment. If the shield takes too much damage, it lessens the threat and makes it seem like Nerv has plenty of time.

Bagheera
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 18626
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:33 am

View Original PostOrnette wrote:If that's the case, she should have just been in front of Shinji the entire time, in both versions of the fight, since, in both versions of the fight, Shinji had no problem firing with her in front (blocking an attack). Why wasn't she in front blocking any potential attack from the get go in NGE or in Rebuild?


She probably should have been. That was her job, after all. A dramatic save is nice and all, but if she's gonna protect him she should be there front and center doing just that.

OTOH it could be that she was staying out of the way, and was only going to get involved if he missed and needed cover to reload. That worked well in the series, since reloading and Ramiel's shooting were straightforward affairs, but less well in 1.xx since the timing of everything was different and Ramiel's shots were all over the map.

I dunno. In NGE things were very straightforward, but in 1.xx I found myself saying "wait, where the hell is Rei?" while he was reloading. She showed up eventually, but . . . :shrug:
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

symbv
Elder God
Elder God
User avatar
Age: 49
Posts: 6513
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: used to be TOKYO
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby symbv » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:41 am

I agree with Ornette. The scene made perfect sense to me. And besides what Warren Peace said about making the scene more dramatic, I also have the feeling that putting Rei all in front of Shinji would mean that she is only used as his shield but more likely Rei is used to be his support, not just to take hits. I am not sure Rei would have been able to tell that a second shot was needed so soon after the first and Shinji actually wanted to take a second shot, but once she saw that she figured the only thing she could do was to be his shield. Her jumping in front of Shinji without much of a thought to protect him showed her quick decision and how much she took the mission as well as protection of Shinji seriously, at least that is how it reads to me personally.
I never thought I would come back to Evangelion after EoE,
But I discovered Re-Take (or it found me?) and
now here I am.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Asuka FAN FOREVER
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tribblepoo
Israfel
Israfel
User avatar
Age: 40
Posts: 483
Joined: Mar 02, 2012
Location: Head is firmly up...nevermind.
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Tribblepoo » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:30 pm

Having seen 2.0 (but not 1.0), I am gathering a couple of things. Most of the changes that can be seen as "bad" are somewhat minor things (at least cosmetically), but have the potential for larger impact over the course of the series.

Take for example when Unit-03's entry plug is crushed. In the series, this was done by Unit-01's right hand. This, among other things, draws important parallels to Shinji's fight with Kaworu, in which that angel is crushed (again) with the right hand. The symbolism of this as an "arc" of character development, linking both events and everything in between is undeniable.

To me, this sort of linking (the "you never see anything once" theory) was important in NGE as it helped develop subconscious links to events that have taken place previously. In my opinion, something is lost without this sort of linking.

In all though, I believe they are changing Evangelion into an action/drama series, instead of one that is deeply psychological. If this is the case, then Rebuild is good as they are accomplishing this rather well. However, if they are still going for psychological (there are hints of this) then they are widely missing the mark.

Then again, the change may simply be due to a time constraint issue. Now, for things that I did like.

The characters seem to be able to say a LOT more about their general attitude or current thoughts without speaking a word. For example, the stance that Asuka takes when she lands in Unit-02 after her entrance says volumes about her character, even though to this point we had never seen her face or hear her voice yet.

Another incident we see this is when Shinji is getting ready to leave before Zeruel arrives. When Misato tries to reach for him, his step out of her reach is so sharp that I couldn't interpret it as anything other than a "Fuck you, I TOLD you I am not piloting again!"

I wish we could have seen more of this type of stuff in the series. It really would have driven the point home of the separation between individuals.
"Having sex with extreme gas must be how the Scots came up with the idea for bagpipes."

chaosakita
Leliel
Leliel
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 719
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby chaosakita » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:02 am

I don't think the writers are trying to remove the psychological aspect of Eva. But when you are doing a movie, you only have so much time. And they aren't all completed yet, so I think we should wait until trying to judge the series as a whole.
Avatar: Shinji and Kaworu get ice cream

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 7394
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:31 pm

If the writers were trying to remove the psychological aspects of Evangelion with the newer movies, then they wouldn't have starting suggesting them a lot sooner than the original TV show. We don't get an "Eva Train Scene" until Ep. 12 in the original show, but we get one in the first 30 minutes of the first new movie, which is repeated multiple times in the second installment before what could have been considered the throw-back to Ep. 12 of the original show. Then there's Shinji's whole mini freak-out moment in Eva Unit 01 as he realizes the gravity of his situation during the climax of 1.11.

I think one of the reasons why they're introducing psychological moments even earlier in the new movies then they were in the original series is because they knew that they needed an earlier start on them in order to take the time to arc them perfectly in a series with a shorter duration, and thus preparing them to take on the full effect in REDO and FINAL.

Kinda scary when you really sit down and think about it...

Kinda like how Evangelion should be...
The Sequels to Emmanuel God With Us
I AM
Part 1 | Part 2
Coming 2016
Watch Announcement Here

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 22557
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: 高地園、新槍ノ島
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:45 pm

View Original PostTribblepoo wrote:Take for example when Unit-03's entry plug is crushed. In the series, this was done by Unit-01's right hand. This, among other things, draws important parallels to (...)

Check out Freaky's essay here. He brings up the "food" theme in 2.0 and (I think...) how that could tie into the more ... oral demolition of Eva-03 and the 9th Angel.

"You never see anything just once" is still quite alive and well in the new films. You aren't going to notice as many if you haven't seen both of the available movies, though....
Avatar: Guu is uncertain...
Crying Man
(Or, How Dr. Katsuragi Found God): Read at AO3 & Discuss Here.
Status: First Draft. Chapter 10: Idle Hands released 5/24/2017.

"Fighting idiocy is like fighting a hydra. Cut off one head, two more grow back and need to tell you their uninformed opinion." - PeeJee, Something*Positive

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 7394
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:13 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Check out Freaky's essay here. He brings up the "food" theme in 2.0 and (I think...) how that could tie into the more ... oral demolition of Eva-03 and the 9th Angel.

Everything's eating each other in 2.22! Unit 02 "BEAST MODE" literally bites away the 10th Angel's AT Field, then the Angel entirely swallows Unit 00 whole. So, even when viewing the second film by itself, one can see this oral deconstruction in battle occur more than once.

It all seems eerily reminiscent of Eva Unit 01 chomping down on Gendo in The End of Evangelion. I didn't really mention it in the essay since I was searching within the new series itself to realize this as a motif rather than taking possibly unrelated elements from the older series to substantiate my theory, but one has to wonder one didn't inspire the other, or if it'll all ultimately lead to the same thing (or maybe even worse) in FINAL.

Also, people actually read my essays? Cool! I'd write them more often if I wasn't so busy these days.
The Sequels to Emmanuel God With Us
I AM
Part 1 | Part 2
Coming 2016
Watch Announcement Here

Sharaz Destler
Lilin
Lilin
Posts: 1020
Joined: Jun 03, 2008
Location: Evergreen Park, IL

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sharaz Destler » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:58 am

I just watched 2.22, having borrowed it from a friend. One thing I can say is, whatta cliffhanger! I know that some of you on here have been debating the maturity of Shinji's actions, etc. etc., but I'll be damned if it wasn't awesome. Finally, after all these years, we get to see Second Impact's effect on the world come back to bite the instigators big time, and how a lifetime (15 years, but that's sufficient) of all that can make people a little...crazier than usual.

Hmm...someone else upthread talked about how Rebuild's removing the psychological aspects of the Eva world. I'd say it's more the philosophical aspect that's being removed, but the psychology is all there--there's not as much dialogue, that's all. Which is, in a way, better, because sometimes fewer words have a bigger impact.
"To the rational mind, nothing is inexplicable...only unexplained."--The Doctor, "Doctor Who".

driftking18594
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 1648
Joined: Sep 26, 2011
Location: NERV Irish Branch
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby driftking18594 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:12 pm

Sorry for the OT post, but I just read FreakyFilmFan4ever's essay. I could never imagine myself typing out something that long, but at least it gives me some reminders from 2.0.

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 7394
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:25 am

There's a much shorter, prehaps better arranged essay I wrote for 1.11 as well. Probably worth a read if you're interested.
The Sequels to Emmanuel God With Us
I AM
Part 1 | Part 2
Coming 2016
Watch Announcement Here

schwarzstahlhelm1993
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 365
Joined: Apr 12, 2012
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby schwarzstahlhelm1993 » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:52 am

Wow, FreakyFilmFan4Ever, that was one hell of an essay! And a good one, at that!

I must say, nothing any studio has ever done before in the anime industry can surpass the über-high production values of the Rebuild of Eva films: the regular animation and the 3D animation are perfectly put together. And those are just the production values...

The characters, particularly in the second film, have been developed very well, to the point that Shinji is now called "badass". I call him badass. That's something you don't see every day with a whiny teenager with a large mech (*cough* Gundam Unicorn *cough*).

robin007bond
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 21
Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 06, 2012
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby robin007bond » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:03 pm

Mari's introduction was unnecessary. Her purpose now is pure fanservice.

I hope that Anno will make something better out of her, instead of having her as sexual object only.


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest