Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Shogo-Kun » Tue May 31, 2011 6:46 pm

Continued from: viewtopic.php?t=11561

View Original PostLegendary wrote:And when a story is made such that the characters are too wrapped up in melodrama to understand that one character has a minor problem and one has a major one, then that story is a bad one because it does not reflect real life properly.

And why should it? It's a story!
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Postby Legendary » Tue May 31, 2011 6:47 pm

I don't think you understand character dramas very well, Shogo-Kun.

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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Tue May 31, 2011 6:49 pm

Here's a radical idea: How about instead of a cut away to Asuka to solve this problem, there could've been a line spoken that includes something about her? When the Nerv building is blasted to bits by Zeruel, Maya could spout out something like 'Asuka's lifelines still stable... that part of the compound not destroyed!' or ~better yet~ Shinji could mention her in his pep talk to himself about how he's gonna save Rei. 'Asuka... I'm sorry I couldn't save you... but Rei... I'm going to get you back! I'm not going to let it happen again EVER!' or something, anything, like that. Nothing that would detract from the importance of Rei or the impact of his need for her, but still just the slightest aside acknowledging Asuka at all.

Also +1 to everything Legendary said about Misato's dialogue when Shinji is leaving.
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Postby Brainman » Tue May 31, 2011 6:50 pm

I get what Gasmask is saying, and I guess it's a matter of time constraint again. Which I suppose its an argument in favor of a series since it gives more than enough time to do these things leisurely in arcs. But aside from the obvious time problems there's still the weird thing about putting that amount of importance on the dinner party. Like it works at a base level, but if you stand and think about it, it's kinda odd.

I mean, ok, Shinji quits and stomps out because he blames Gando for hurting Asuka. Got it. But when Misato starts blubbering over a spoiled play date when something more significant went down, I have to throw a penalty flag. And really, I don't actually know if Shinji deserves "sympathy" at all in this scene (nor are we meant to give it to him). Again, he's screwing Nerv over big. With Asuka and Unit 03 out and one active pilot, they're f'ed. They have the dummy system, but it's unproven and not reliable as it turns out. He's not waving bye to Rei either. He's just totally given up on them.

Do note also that he doesn't pressure Misato into advocating Asuka's release. He's more angry with his father than he's concerned over Asuka. So when the big fight happens at the end and he makes his 180, it's kinda weird because he was about to leave those same people in the dust a minute ago. I just think the scenario could have been polished slightly more so that all the motives become more clear.

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Postby GasmaskAvenger » Tue May 31, 2011 6:50 pm

View Original PostLegendary wrote:And when a story is made such that the characters are too wrapped up in melodrama to understand that one character has a minor problem and one has a major one, then that story is a bad one because it does not reflect real life properly.

I would say something about a possible cultural reason or that it was the result of an unfortunate oversight in the creative process but I dunno

@Seele: here's how I think they should've handled it.



first off, they should've removed the post credits scene with Kaworu and instead replace it with a scene in the place that Asuka is being held.


a simple little scene that zooms to her masked face and it goes to a shot of her face underneath the mask and she opens her eyes.
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Postby Legendary » Tue May 31, 2011 6:56 pm

I don't think Japanese culture operates under the assumption that losses in the social sphere outweigh losses in the military sphere. It is an unfortunate oversight in the creative process, however. That's why I don't think Rebuild is good. Because of this oversight, and others which I believe occurred in the creative process.

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Postby Ornette » Tue May 31, 2011 6:57 pm

View Original PostLegendary wrote:Rei had her day ruined. Boo fricking hoo. Asuka has been hospitalized. That's obvious. No matter what Misato doesn't know, that's the only fecking conclusion you can make out of her NOT BEING THERE any more. One girl can RESCHEDULE her stupid little party. The other needs medical attention. There is no reason to feel bad for Rei right now. Just Asuka.

I don't think there's supposed to be a who's worse off situation in Misato's dialogue. She's trying to convince Shinji to stay, starting off with how it's going to suck for him if he leaves because he'll be under constant surveillance. She first asks Shinji about Toji and Kensuke, arguably the 2 closest friends. He doesn't bite, then she asks him about Rei and Asuka.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Tue May 31, 2011 6:58 pm

View Original PostGasmaskAvenger wrote:first off, they should've removed the post credits scene with Kaworu and instead replace it with a scene in the place that Asuka is being held.


a simple little scene that zooms to her masked face and it goes to a shot of her face underneath the mask and she opens her eyes.

I rather like the Kaworu lance scene though, and I think it's pretty essential for the story and how they want to tell it. They could've included a shot of Asuka there too though, yeah, but it's a bit late. She still missed the opportunity to be referred to as even remotely important in the films climax.
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Postby Legendary » Tue May 31, 2011 7:01 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:He doesn't bite, then she asks him about Rei and Asuka.


But then she goes on with Rei, and her story, and there are no more references to Asuka. She talks about what Rei wanted, past tense. If she'd followed that up by noting that Asuka had only piloted Eva-03 so that Shinji could have that chance to be with his father and people who cared about him, then that would be fine too. But that doesn't happen. Asuka's just a name she throws out to try to guilt him. She might as well have said "You didn't ask about Pen-Pen."

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Postby Brainman » Tue May 31, 2011 7:02 pm

Here's another thing that's more of a nit pick but I thought was strange. There's obviously no dancing in 2.0. I've come to terms with this by now. BUT that means there's technically no "harmonization" routine for them to actually practice doing. So how does Misato justify their living arrangement in the first place? In what way do they harmonize by living together? We never see any sort of training going on. Was Misato trying to practice her skills as an escort service?

And on that note, How come Shinji needs to learn how to harmonize with Asuka but not with any other pilots or Nerv personnel? There were metaphors aplenty in the Israphel battle, but since that's scrapped it makes their living together more of a stretch. Like Misato can't just wave her hand and say "it can't be helped" when the obvious objections come to mind.

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Postby Ornette » Tue May 31, 2011 7:20 pm

View Original PostLegendary wrote:But then she goes on with Rei, and her story, and there are no more references to Asuka. She talks about what Rei wanted, past tense. If she'd followed that up by noting that Asuka had only piloted Eva-03 so that Shinji could have that chance to be with his father and people who cared about him, then that would be fine too. But that doesn't happen. Asuka's just a name she throws out to try to guilt him. She might as well have said "You didn't ask about Pen-Pen."

She was talking about Gendo and their (his and Shinji's) relationship before bringing up Rei. I suppose she could have left Rei out entirely and just referred to the setup as "the dinner". It's not about Rei doing something as it is Gendo and Shinji getting together. It just doesn't seem like a big deal to me at all.

She definitely was trying to guilt Shinji into staying, that part was kind of obvious even when I first saw it without subtitles. She's running through her list of things that Shinji cared about and ending with sort of a "maybe you and your dad can work things out". I don't see how you can replace the inclusion of Asuka in the list with Pen-pen. Not just that, Pen-pen was standing next to Misato.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Tue May 31, 2011 7:20 pm

Brainman: re: Why Misato moved Asuka in with Shinji? I have no idea and couldn't agree more. Absolutely no clue on why they're living together; like many other things lazily copypasta'd from the original, it doesn't hold up under critical thinking. Why worry about harmony between Asuka and Shinji? What about between Asuka and Rei? Why not continue to work on Shinji and Rei? All three should live together or might as well be seperate in these movies without the sync training subplot.
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Postby Brainman » Tue May 31, 2011 7:35 pm

Well I mean I can see why the dance bit was omitted. The dance training would basically be a big A/S shipper's wet dream come true (can't have none of that, friend). But if your route right now is the Rei track and you want that emphasized, then don't have Asuka living in the damn apartment. It makes no sense and is confusing to us (who's been f'ing with my medicine?).

It'd make more sense if Asuka was someone distant but wanted intimacy with Shinji because she lives alone and only really laughs when she's around the other pilots (namely Shinji). But then that makes the Bardiel fight weird because we're supposed to believe Asuka was important enough to Shinji that he'd go into a bitchfit over it. So maybe it's that he's an admirer. Like he sees her fight and is enamored like a kid is with a celebrity. He wont consider her a love interest because she's like a star and too far away from him. But it's not true, but Asuka has trouble expressing this to him meaningfully.

Come on, this is simple stuff people.

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Postby Kendrix » Tue May 31, 2011 7:38 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:Brainman: re: Why Misato moved Asuka in with Shinji? I have no idea and couldn't agree more. Absolutely no clue on why they're living together; like many other things lazily copypasta'd from the original, it doesn't hold up under critical thinking. Why worry about harmony between Asuka and Shinji? What about between Asuka and Rei? Why not continue to work on Shinji and Rei? All three should live together or might as well be seperate in these movies without the sync training subplot.


Because Shinji and Rei have already proven that they can work together.
Misato already knows Asuka and her personality beforehand, and Re!Misato was probably smart enough to anticipate that teamwork-problems could appear. She says something about improving both their social skills... and they look like they need that, don't they?
Rei probably doesn't fall under her jurisdiction and/or has proven that her "communication skills" while not too usefull in everyday life, suffice for battle.
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Postby Brainman » Tue May 31, 2011 7:44 pm

@Kendrix

The problem remains that Misato doesn't give them anything to train on. Socializing? Well there's ways to do that which don't involve company ordered sleep overs. And the "obvious objection" I was referring to is that typically when you get 14 year olds together they end up getting involved in fooly cooly and lord knows how many problems that would cause for Nerv.

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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Tue May 31, 2011 7:52 pm

Kendrix: Rei needs socializing as much as Shinji and Asuka; either that or socializing is irrelevent. You know what would've been intersting? Considering Shinji already has a couple regular friends, Misato should've moved Asuka and Rei in together. Maybe with Kaji! Can you imagine Rei and Asuka living with Kaji? That would've been ~awesome~.
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Postby Kendrix » Tue May 31, 2011 9:19 pm

View Original PostBrainman wrote:@Kendrix

The problem remains that Misato doesn't give them anything to train on. Socializing? Well there's ways to do that which don't involve company ordered sleep overs. And the "obvious objection" I was referring to is that typically when you get 14 year olds together they end up getting involved in fooly cooly and lord knows how many problems that would cause for Nerv.


There was no talk about sleepovers, Asuka got the luck of getting to sleep in her own room from the very beginning here.
Living together forces them to interact on a daily basis and get along. also, Misato makes sure they both go on the fieldtrip to help the socializing bit.
Also, they're not animals/rabbits.


I never said Rei doesn't "need" socializing, but would she get into an argument and do something foolish in battle?
Also, maybe Misato is just uncomfortable with a kid she was attached to (She already knew Asuka) living all alone.
Last edited by Kendrix on Tue May 31, 2011 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Legendary » Tue May 31, 2011 9:20 pm

Would Shinji get into an argument?

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Postby Kendrix » Tue May 31, 2011 9:23 pm

View Original PostLegendary wrote:Would Shinji get into an argument?


He may try to avoid them, but it takes two for that... a
Also, remember episodes 9 and 16?
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Postby Legendary » Tue May 31, 2011 9:24 pm

In 2.0? No.


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