Last angel fight

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Last angel fight [Spoilers]

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Postby Ramiel² » Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:14 pm

Well simple question:

Shinji in the fight with zeruel.

He reaches into the core of zeruel to rescue Rei.

isn`t he kinda supposed to find zeruels "soul" there to?

Or is this whole scene just massive imagenary just like they all probably allready tangified..?

And with they all i refer to Rei and Shinji ._.

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Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:30 pm

Well, if Shinji DID get a 400% synch rate again (not sure, check the translation thread) he probably did get tanged. He's definitely still solid when he's in the entry plug, but I suspect he was tanged by the time he saw Rei and that was just in his imagination.

What I thought happened was that Zeruel merged with Rei when he ate Eva00. That's why his body changes, Rei's soul overrides his. Her soul wound up in the core after her body and Eva were digested, which is why after Rei and Shinji merged third impact started.

So I thought it's Zeruel + Rei = Rei + Shinji & Eva01 = Third Impact
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Postby Reichu » Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:33 pm

MugwumpHasNoLiver wrote:Well, if Shinji DID get a 400% synch rate again

No mention of it. (They don't explain much of anything that's happening at the end, in any case.)

That's why his body changes, Rei's soul overrides his.

If it "overrides" his as such, how is Zeruel able to subdue her soul inside his core?

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:35 pm

Only thing I can add is that I figured Shinji saving Rei was metaphysical stuff going on, similar to Instrumentality.

Also, I think he was actually entering BEYOND Eva-01's core to reach Rei, IIRC.
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Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:50 pm

Reichu wrote:If it "overrides" his as such, how is Zeruel able to subdue her soul inside his core?


Okay, I admit, 'overrides' was lazy wording on my part. I'd only meant that since Rei's soul was so powerful, it had the after-effect of changing Zeruel's body after it was subdued. I'm guessing that it wasn't a conscious decision for him to undergo a metaphysical sex change and spout glowing white B cups.
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Postby Axell » Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:06 am

My fanwank of what happened:

The black ooze Shinji had to penetrate was zeruel's soul, thats why Rei was in there, she was trapped within zeruel's soul.

Pulling Rei out probably had the same effect of pulling a dagger/knife/sword out of someone, when Rei was removed, Zeruel dies. This is shown by a blood explosion that occurs for a few seconds. The blood then comes back and forms Giant Bloody Rei, just in case anyone didn't notice, I didn't the first run through

/fanwank
Last edited by Axell on Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:38 am

Axell: Good theory, I approve. (Until somebody else has a better explanation of what happened. ^^; )
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Postby The Goose » Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:58 am

I remember they did mention that Shinji had gone deeper into the entry plug, which is something that also happened to Asuka too in Unit-03. So, if NERV was still able to get Asuka out of Unit-03 still solid, then maybe Shinji is still solid too? Though, how both Rei and Shinji disappear into the light inside Unit-01 may be another of showing that they've both been absorbed inside it? Thats my guess.

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Postby wonderluster » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:58 am

Ok so that means that the deeper into the entry plug, the better the sync ratio and the stronger the AT field.....Right?.....Reichu?
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Postby LiLi » Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:42 am

Of course the whole scene could be interpreted as happening on a purely metaphysical plan, but, if I were to attempt a "pseudo-physical" interpretation... I'm guessing perhaps Shinji hadn't already tangified/turned into energy completely before he joined with Rei, but he had already trascended the basic lilim state... Rei had been absorbed into Zeruel and they had become one... so Shinji pulling Rei out of Zeruel killed it, as her getting out sort of "dismembered it" (its core?) from within?

BTW (spoilers for Utena TV):
SPOILER: Show
Was anyone else reminded of that scene from the last episode of the Utena TV series? I'm referring to the one where Utena tries to reach Anthy who's curled up inside the dark, dark coffin to free her, and tells her to take her hand... Anthy initially refuses to, but then hesitantly complies...
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Postby User-iel » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:58 am

Yes, I interpret this just as you do LiLi. And I like the identification you provide in the tag. Would you be so bold as to continue the metaphor like this:

Plug depth = Metaphysical distance from the core AND Physical distance from core.

Contact experiments tend to get the human inside the event horizon of the core, once core has at least one occupant, event horizon is smaller / 'force' is less. I remember a sci-fi novel where humans were able to make use of a passive, invertebrate like 'bridge' lifeform to create psychic contact. But invariably, only the first person to awaken the organism would die in the process, following contactees were not at risk.
I was also of the opinion that this is almost a 'slide down the slippery slope' to evil for Shinji. Rei is saved, but the "pushing through" all the black stuff [thx @Axell] to get her goes way past just killing the angel. On Zeruel's end, this would be a fair approximation of rape or mind-eating, not just an ordinary death. The soul being dehumanized and shoved aside. And since Shinji accomplishes this by entering the other, he must not be physical. BTW, is that Yui-as-Rustoleum stuck to him like 'skin'? I've seen those flames before...

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Postby carla » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:22 am

well, the way i saw it was: this thing was all a massive metaphysical parallel to what was happening in a physical sense.

they don't mention sync rates but they do say plug depth has gone over 180. i have no idea what the heck that means, but i assume it's something that doesn't happen to your normal human piloting an evangelion.

by the time the "give Ayanami back!" thing happens, Shinji's already started to become one with 01 (that's what the red eyes mean, i guess). then maya mentions that the ego barrier's going down... that means Shinji's getting liquefied, right? :sweatdrop: that's what i took it to mean, since after the "black hole" thing appears and the song comes up in the background, that's the first time we see "meta-shinji" and we don't see real Shinji in the entry plug anymore.

by then, 01 has already made a dent in zeruel's core (paralelling that, meta Shinji has started to swim down to find Rei. he can already see her, because her soul is trapped inside zeruel's core). like axell said, that black ooze is probably the barrier of zeruel's soul-- and Rei is, IMO, just sitting there in the middle of it, because meta-shinji does get... "burnt" by something (he goes red) so i'm assuming it's still zeruel's soul fighting back.

after meta-shinji pulls Rei out, in the metaphysical plane it means Rei's soul is free-- in the physical sense, it means Rei has effectively taken over zeruel. that's when zeruel's core explodes, and red Rei is formed from it. my guess is, when zeruel merged with Rei he was in control so he retained at least half his shape, but now that Rei took over, the shape of their merged body is dictated by her will (and thank god she didn't want to stick with that half-girl monstruosity with a mane-- it was very silly-looking IMO).

then meta-shinji and meta-rei hug and meta-shinji tells her "everything's fine"... and physically eva 01 and the red Rei start to merge. so you get some bits of adam (zeruel) + lilith's soul (Rei) + lilith's body (eva 01) + Shinji (he's got to be there else this wouldn't be EVA) and voilà, third impact.

at least until kaworu comes by and ruins the fun.

BTW, i have to say: LOL, that random shot of lilith thrown in there never fails to makes me laugh. it's like lilith's going "hey, second angel here, remember me? jerks, they just up and left me out!" :pointlaugh:

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Postby trueno_twentyone » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:28 am

carla wrote:at least until kaworu comes by and ruins the fun.


what a killjoy!
if i were Shinji, i'd be terribly angry with Kaworu, because he threw the lance at me... it's like you're walking when somebody from above threw a pot of flower on your head!
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Postby Soul Fire » Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:34 am

then meta-shinji and meta-rei hug and meta-shinji tells her "everything's fine"... and physically eva 01 and the red Rei start to merge. so you get some bits of adam (zeruel) + lilith's soul (Rei) + lilith's body (eva 01) + Shinji (he's got to be there else this wouldn't be EVA) and voilà, third impact.


There are specifically some things in those scenes which make me think that Shinji wasnt absorbed until after the reuinion with Rei. The fact that Shinji keeps his clothes on in the scene and the fact that when he did go 'deeper' in the entry plug we are shown his skin disintergrating but not completley. Additionally Rei is also shown still holding onto Shinji's SDAT player which in my eyes, is an anchor to the real world.

The other thing about Kaworu throwing that spear....wouldnt it have had to have pierced one of unit 01's cores to have stopped Eva01 in it's tracks?

it's like you're walking when somebody from above threw a pot of flower on your head!


I think being impaled by a spear is a bit more serious.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:14 pm

User-iel: With "evil" Shinji, Ritsuko did say something about Shinji would lose his humanity by doing what he did ("Stop Shinji-kun! You won't be able to return to being human!"), so what you said is true to an extent at least, I'd say.

Soul Fire wrote:Additionally Rei is also shown still holding onto Shinji's SDAT player which in my eyes, is an anchor to the real world.


Reminds me of Misato's cross in EoE. But yeah, I say Shinji and Rei weren't disintegrated/tanged(???) until Shinji and Rei embrace, briefly chat, and then suddenly Eva-01 does....I forget what. Glow or cause an explosion, I think.
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Postby Soul Fire » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:00 pm

Reminds me of Misato's cross in EoE. But yeah, I say Shinji and Rei weren't disintegrated/tanged(???) until Shinji and Rei embrace, briefly chat, and then suddenly Eva-01 does....I forget what. Glow or cause an explosion, I think.


Yeah I was reminded of that aswell but the whole thing with Shinji's clothes and the way he looks like he is still postioned in the chair rather than floating made me think that in fact they havent been absorbed yet. After they embrace Unit 01 merges with or absorbs the giant Rei/Uni00 core into it's self and starts to glow. That would be the logical point for them to be tanged I suppose.

Im liking the Touhou Avatar by the way. :grin:
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Postby wonderluster » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:11 pm

Soul Fire wrote:
then meta-shinji and meta-rei hug and meta-shinji tells her "everything's fine"... and physically eva 01 and the red Rei start to merge. so you get some bits of adam (zeruel) + lilith's soul (Rei) + lilith's body (eva 01) + Shinji (he's got to be there else this wouldn't be EVA) and voilà, third impact.


There are specifically some things in those scenes which make me think that Shinji wasnt absorbed until after the reuinion with Rei. The fact that Shinji keeps his clothes on in the scene and the fact that when he did go 'deeper' in the entry plug we are shown his skin disintergrating but not completley. Additionally Rei is also shown still holding onto Shinji's SDAT player which in my eyes, is an anchor to the real world.

The other thing about Kaworu throwing that spear....wouldnt it have had to have pierced one of unit 01's cores to have stopped Eva01 in it's tracks?

it's like you're walking when somebody from above threw a pot of flower on your head!


I think being impaled by a spear is a bit more serious.





Karowu: Hey Shinji, how's it goin?

Shinji: Don't talk to me. Go away.

Kaworu: Is something wrong? did something happen? C'mon, we're both Eva pilots, you can tell me right?

Shinji: YOU FRIGGIN IMPALED ME!

Kaworu: Oh.......Right......Ummmm....That was ummm Misato, yeah it was Misato!

Shinji: >< BITCH!
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Postby carla » Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:35 pm

@wonderluster: LOL :hitthetable: "come on, shinji-kun, what's a little impaling between friends?" haha! omg, wins for worst excuse EVAR. :chuckles: (and that's not even taking into account all the innuendo that comes with it!)

and yeah, it's hard to say when the actual liquification (LOL, is that even a word?) takes place. i mean, meta-shinji's still wearing his clothes even as he embraces meta-rei. so if we go by the clothes, he got tanged exactly... never? at least we're not shown the meta side of it, just the actual physical side (eva 01 merging with Rei/zeruel).

(and i somehow missed Rei with the SDAT. i've watched the scene god knows how many times, and i still keep missing it! *squints at screen*).

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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:21 am

wonderluster wrote:Shinji: YOU FRIGGIN IMPALED ME!
What do you expect? -- Shin-chan is always the uke.
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Postby wonderluster » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:33 pm

So Im not sure there will be any Angel fights at all next time due to the Zureul fight. I feel like things are going to get a lot more personal, with Kaworu and everything. I believe that Kaworu is still goin to be happpy go lucky and everything, and if Shinji and Rei get out of Unit 01, then I think that Shinji more than Rei would be showing some sort of Negativity towards Karowu. Kaworu might not think of "the Impaling" as much because it was simply what was the best thing to do at the time, and then Shinji's going to get paranoid and thinkKaworu's the bad guy and nobodys goin to believe him like one of those classic situations. Then Kaworu goes Angel and everyone's like ahh damnit, Shinji was right.
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