EVA-00's Soul

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:44 am

Okay, so here are the basic accepted facts as I understand them (and I insist on being corrected if such is not the case):

We know all of Yui's soul is within Eva 01
We know a fragment of Rei (presumably her younger Rei I) is within Eva 00
We know that Eva 01 is half of Lilith's body
We know that Rei II and Eva 00 share parts of the same soul
We know that the shared soul between Rei II and Eva 00 is Lilith's soul

therefore:

Eva 01 + Eva 00(Rei I) + Rei II= Half of Lilith (with complete Lilith soul)

Going on a appearances, we can safely assume that the meta biology of Lilith + Yui's tang (explanation for human genetics) = Rei I (who is just as complete as Rei III)-- via the Eva 01 CE, i.e. metaphysical sex between the "Double-Cross" form of Lilith and Yui.

Therefore Rei I,II,III etc. has two "mothers" = (herself as) Lilith and Yui

Thus Rei I=Rei III but neither Rei I nor Rei III= Rei II

So, we can deduce that Rei II's compatibility comes from the fact that with Eva 00, she's piloting part of her own soul. With Eva 01, she's piloting part of her own body, thus no compatibility with Eva 02 who is left completely out of the Rei/Yui/Lilith loop.

Incidentally the connection between Rei/Yui/Lilith goes back to the "three faces of mother" thing.

Also, Rei II or her dummy can sync with Eva 01 because it's not only "her body" but also the partial body of her alien "mother" (Lilith) and the soul of her earthly "mother" (Yui).

In that sense, I guess one can make the argument that Lilith and Yui kind of traded places in a quasi Freaky-Friday-esque way prior to Rei I being fragmented for Rei II and Eva 00 AND Lilith being split into Cross-Hanging Lilith and Eva 01.

Are these assertions correct? If so, then it certainly provides multiple explanations that lead to the same conclusion: Rei II/her dummy's ability to sync with Eva 01 (prior to ep. 19).
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Postby NemZ » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:07 pm

Pretty much, yeah.

But none of that explains why a dummy plug would be in 02. Just a bluff for Seele's benefit? :huh:
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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:32 pm

Maybe Lilith can sync with all lilin souls the way Adam can sync with all of his clone bodies?
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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:44 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Pretty much, yeah.

But none of that explains why a dummy plug would be in 02. Just a bluff for Seele's benefit? :huh:



It would seem that way, probably as a generalized cover for their work...In fact, for all of her "sound and fury" almost everything about Asuka's presence (such as her ambition to prove herself as "the greatest" by fighting the Angels) seems to be unnecessary add-ons to what Nerv is doing. In that regard it would seem that all of the projects connected to her and Eva 02 are there to cover Nerv’s asses and make them seem more legit.

I’ve in, recent years, held the idea that everything that needed to be accomplished, from the destruction of the Angels to 3rd Impact/Instrumentality could’ve easily been accomplished without Asuka or Eva 002.

In that sense, one might be able to safely assume that Kaworu was able to sync/take control of Eva 02 so easily in that, possessing the soul of Adam, he can manifest his power of over one of Adam's "bodies."

Which also explains the ease of control within the MPE's in that a Adam-based dummy (Kaworu dummy) could sync just as easily with as Kaworu himself in the same way that Rei II/her dummy could sync with Eva 00 and at one point, Eva 01. As a side note, this conceptualization of Kaworu/Adam’s interconnectedness via the Eva’s compared to the Rei/Lilith/Yui connection serves to enhance my musing on this little theory I have regarding Kaworu and the MPE’s:

http://forum.evageeks.org/post/788927/The-necessity-of-souls-in-Evas-other-possibilities-split/?highlight=#788927

By contrast, that would also explain Rei I's psychosis within Eva 00.

From her perspective she must be wondering "Who the hell is this bitch walking around in my teenage body and WTF am I doing in an Adam-based body?! He's supposed to be my enemy! First, I get choked out by some crazy scientist bitch and now this? FUCK THIS SHIT!" {Ensuing Eva 00 berserker thus follows suit}.

One more thing that only occurs to me now…Lilith’s (or at least a part of Lilith) transformation into Rei I could be seen as an experiment in shape shifting on Lilith’s part via the Eva 01 CE. To that end, the fact that she took on the form of a body that slightly resembled Yui indicates two things:

1). She didn’t quite get it right the first time (Contrast with Rei III assuming the forms of Yui, Misato, Ristuko etc. in EoE) - hence the blue hair and red eyes.

2). The fact that she took on the shape that we (as the audience) recognize as Rei Ayanami is completely arbitrary.

This is evidence by:
Lilith presumably receiving the “form of Rei” from Yui’s hypothetical tang via the Eva 01 CE and the fact that all of her other forms seen in EoE were of people were already dead/tanged/collected. That’s not to say that it was actually those people as much as she had the ability to take on their form after her subsequent contact with them…I guess that kind of makes Lilith like the T-1000….taking forms of other people after making contact with them…

And all of this relies solely on the physical components that make these people up rather than anything having to do with their actual souls.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:48 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Maybe Lilith can sync with all lilin souls the way Adam can sync with all of his clone bodies?


This is what I figured, too.
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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:09 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:This is what I figured, too.


I really don' t feel that the other souls (outside of Lilith and Adam) have much to do with it. I think it's more a matter of the souls (within Rei II and Kaworu) aligning to certain "body-types" that make up the Eva's. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to assume that Unit 02 is "incompatible" with Rei II (or Shinji by extension) whereas finding a replacement for Asuka through Kaworu posed no problem whatsoever.

Likewise, I'm of the mind that the MPE, what with being very "angelic-like" (wings included) are more or less Kaworu's version of Eva 00.

One of the only variables here is that we never saw Dummy Rei's being used on Eva 00 and don't have absolute confirmation that Kaworu's soul fragments are inside the MPE's...

However, this theory does lend the plausibility that Asuka could've easily been replaced by a Kaworu Dummy...
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:40 pm

View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:In that sense, I guess one can make the argument that Lilith and Yui kind of traded places in a quasi Freaky-Friday-esque way prior to Rei I being fragmented for Rei II and Eva 00 AND Lilith being split into Cross-Hanging Lilith and Eva 01.

Are these assertions correct? If so, then it certainly provides multiple explanations that lead to the same conclusion: Rei II/her dummy's ability to sync with Eva 01 (prior to ep. 19).


All except the last. I don't see any reason to think Yui and Lilith "traded places" at any point. Note that Rei I was split up long after the split between Lilith and Unit 01; Yui was long since entombed in Unit 01 by that point, and went there directly from her own body. Lilith was just hanging out until Gendo and Fuyu did whatever they did to clone Yui.
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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:08 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:All except the last. I don't see any reason to think Yui and Lilith "traded places" at any point. Note that Rei I was split up long after the split between Lilith and Unit 01; Yui was long since entombed in Unit 01 by that point, and went there directly from her own body. Lilith was just hanging out until Gendo and Fuyu did whatever they did to clone Yui.


It's my opinion that Rei I sort of transubstantiated indirectly from the CE with Eva 01 (which was still attached to Lilith).

It would seem that fragmenting of both Lilith and Rei I didn't occur until Yui was in her place as Lilith's successor and Lilith's soul was in her new "Yui-tang-based-body" i.e. Rei I.

THEN we have Lilith and Eva 01 broken apart and even later we have Lilith's soul broken apart to make Rei II and Eva 00. This kind of explains why the first Eva 00 activation occurred so closely to the start of the series. It would seem that it was simultaneous CE between Rei II and Eva 00 and Nerv had no idea what was actually going to happen...for example, the implications of a full fledged Lilith soul being entrapped in an Adamic body...

Hence also why Gendo is so protective of Rei in that she seemed to be this special little creature directly connected to his wife's mysterious departure form this world and a defacto extension of Yui herself (whilst simultaneously being an extension of Lilith, obviously which is almost the complete inverse of what Eva 01 is compared to Lilith).
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:25 pm

View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:It's my opinion that Rei I sort of transubstantiated indirectly from the CE with Eva 01 (which was still attached to Lilith).

It would seem that fragmenting of both Lilith and Rei I didn't occur until Yui was in her place as Lilith's successor and Lilith's soul was in her new "Yui-tang-based-body" i.e. Rei I.


What are you basing that on? I haven't seen anything to indicate when the Rei business actually took place, and the notion that it took place before Lilith and Unit 01 were split apart seems completely arbitrary to me.

THEN we have Lilith and Eva 01 broken apart and even later we have Lilith's soul broken apart to make Rei II and Eva 00. This kind of explains why the first Eva 00 activation occurred so closely to the start of the series. It would seem that it was simultaneous CE between Rei II and Eva 00 and Nerv had no idea what was actually going to happen...for example, the implications of a full fledged Lilith soul being entrapped in an Adamic body...


As I've said previously, I'm of the opinion that Rei II is as she is because she had a CE that went about like Kyoko's. That is, Nerv didn't intend to split up Lilith's soul, it just happened as a result of the CE. This explains both Rei II's wildly different persona from that of her predecessor and also why Unit 00 is so prone to berserker rages.
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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:17 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:What are you basing that on? I haven't seen anything to indicate when the Rei business actually took place, and the notion that it took place before Lilith and Unit 01 were split apart seems completely arbitrary to me.


Maybe it took place during the first (and subsequently failed) salvage operation wherein "Yui's tang" was re-purposed by Lilith's soul to create Rei I whilst Yui remained in the portion that would become Eva 01, thus being indicative of a (albeit a fairly complicated) soul switch-a-roo type situation between Lilith and Yui soon to become:

Lilith, Unit 01, and Rei I (Kind of like an equation with an exponential result):

Lilith (Whole Body and Soul) + Yui (Whole Body and Soul) = Half Lilith (soulless), Eva 01 (Whole Yui soul within), Rei I (Whole Lilith Soul within).

In this regard, if we follow the theorem for the Magi:

Melchior (self as a scientist), Balthasar (self as a mother), and Casper (self as woman)

We see the same thing reflected in:

Eva 01/Yui (the proverbial Eve go forth first to eat the "forbidden fruit of knowledge) - scientist
Lilith - Mother (incidentally rejected here by both Yui and Lilith)
Rei I - Woman (as a child) -which could explain the boldness in the way she talks to Naoko and later "staying a woman to the very last second" when she betrays Gendo in EoE.


View Original PostBagheera wrote:As I've said previously, I'm of the opinion that Rei II is as she is because she had a CE that went about like Kyoko's. That is, Nerv didn't intend to split up Lilith's soul, it just happened as a result of the CE. This explains both Rei II's wildly different persona from that of her predecessor and also why Unit 00 is so prone to berserker rages.


I agree. This only further helps my point, the maternal aspect of Rei I, the mother of all mothers- Lilith's maternal aspect, is probably what got fragmented into Eva 00, and this would've occurred after:

Rei I popped up from the Eva 01/Lilith debacle with Yui trapped inside, and after Eva 01 was its own thing separate from Lilith.

I suppose in that sense, Yui/Eva 01 never seems to show any cruelty towards Rei II/III because she's kind of her earthly ambassador or even her eyes and ears around Nerv.
Last edited by SawItAtAge10 on Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:14 pm

We know Rei was created by accident as part of the attempts to rescue Yui, so it probably wasn't too long after that. Seems likely to me that they would have refrained from any major changes to the arrangement of various parts until all immediate recovery efforts were given up on. Thus it's rather likely Lilith and 01 were still connected at the time, and this connection also explains how it's possible Rei was created while trying to pull someone out of 01.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:38 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:We know Rei was created by accident as part of the attempts to rescue Yui, so it probably wasn't too long after that. Seems likely to me that they would have refrained from any major changes to the arrangement of various parts until all immediate recovery efforts were given up on. Thus it's rather likely Lilith and 01 were still connected at the time, and this connection also explains how it's possible Rei was created while trying to pull someone out of 01.


I'm not sure it was an accident. And, since we know Rei was "born" in an altogether different area, I don't see how connecting her "birth" to the double cross business makes any sense. If Rei was created spontaneously as a result of salvage efforts (a la Shinji emerging from Unit 01 in ep 20) this would be a better argument (and it's one I've made in the past!), but Ritsuko tells us plainly that Rei was "born" elsewhere. So, it seems likely Gendo and co. recovered Yui's remains, took them somewhere else, (somehow) created Rei, and then (somehow) transferred Lilith's soul into her body. The how of it remains a mystery, and it doesn't make a lot of sense, but that's what the show's told us.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:29 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I'm not sure it was an accident.


I meant accident in that they wanted to recreate Yui, not Rei.

As to where Rei was born, it's just down the hall from the same room. Entirely possible she was referring to this whole restricted wing of the base and not just this specific room. Or maybe they did something to Lilith/01 and they brought the resulting expelled biomass up to the lab to study.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:26 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I meant accident in that they wanted to recreate Yui, not Rei.


I know what you meant, and stand by what I said. It might not have been an accident at all, so much as a conscious decision on Gendo's part: he tried to get Yui back, failed, and used her remains to create a clone in her image so that he would have a means of manipulating Lilith.
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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:01 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I know what you meant, and stand by what I said. It might not have been an accident at all, so much as a conscious decision on Gendo's part: he tried to get Yui back, failed, and used her remains to create a clone in her image so that he would have a means of manipulating Lilith.


I don't think he "used her remains" as much as Rei I kind of just emerged naked into the world the same way Shinji did in ep. 20.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:51 am

View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:I don't think he "used her remains" as much as Rei I kind of just emerged naked into the world the same way Shinji did in ep. 20.


That's a common assumption (one I used to share), but unfortunately the show contradicts it. Ritsuko specifically tells us Rei was born elsewhere, which means she couldn't have emerged fully grown from the Eva. Also, the age of Rei I (when seen in ep 21) suggests she was born/created sometime around 2006, while Yui Ikari entered the Eva in 2004. This is problematic for all sorts of reasons (it's inconsistent with the Reis we see "budding" off of Lilith, and with the Reiquarium, for starters, but it also suggests Gendo can accelerate her growth somehow, which has crazy setting implications), but it's what we're stuck with.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:29 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That's a common assumption (one I used to share), but unfortunately the show contradicts it. Ritsuko specifically tells us Rei was born elsewhere, which means she couldn't have emerged fully grown from the Eva. Also, the age of Rei I (when seen in ep 21) suggests she was born/created sometime around 2006, while Yui Ikari entered the Eva in 2004. This is problematic for all sorts of reasons (it's inconsistent with the Reis we see "budding" off of Lilith, and with the Reiquarium, for starters, but it also suggests Gendo can accelerate her growth somehow, which has crazy setting implications), but it's what we're stuck with.


Well, I didn't exactly mean "emerged from Eva 01" explicitly, I just sort of meant that she either appeared from the Cross of Loraine Lilith during the CE or during the failed Yui salvage. She could have resulted from the severing of Eva 01 from Lilith thus making Rei I and Eva 01 a kind of yin-yang (in that they are complete inversions of eahother) "twin-dragon"-esque beings. Maybe (as I said before about Lilith's shape-shifting abilities) Lilith was continually re-modulated to only produce Yui's form (as Rei) resulting from the fact that it was the only human form she had come into contact with thus far. Maybe the humanoid form we see on the cross (signal or double) isn't her "true form" either...Perhaps the Cross of Lorraine we see is in fact midway through the process, after the CE (which could have literally just been Yui touching the being we identify as "Lilith"), of abandoning the salvage operation and just calling a portion of Lilith Eva 01 after implementing a core there to get Yui's soul and just before they sever Eva 01 to make it a separate being.
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Soooo who's Unit 0's soul?

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Postby ReiIsTopTierWaifu » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:11 pm

So, this has been asked probably hundreads of times now, but who is Unit 0's soul, I always thought about it being possibly Yui, since Rei
SPOILER: Show
is a clone of her
yet, don't you have to have a strong bond to another person in order to pilot an eva (if not always a mother figure), so how could she pilot an Eva if there's no one that we know of in NGE, and Rebuild that is both deceased and close to Rei, could it be because Yui is literally half of Yui and the other half of Rei angel (I think), but Yui is already Unit 01's soul, so could a soul inhabit multiple eva's? I read on the 'EscapistMagazine' fourm and someone mentioned Akagi (Ritsuko's mom) being unit 0's soul, could it be possible? Stupid, yes, but she is the only female besides Asuka (which is irrelevant) that has ever interacted with Rei, Akagi could have regretted her decision and decided to make up for it by becoming the soul of Unit 0 and deciding to protect her, in the future, as even though she was seen as an object to Gendo to get his Sexual desires out, she could have been seen as a motheely figure, or haunt her Eva as a constant reminder, similar to Asuka I guess, has Anno ever talked about Pilots being able to have a strong bond with someone that's still alive and that somehow allowing them to pilot an Eva? Plothole, but that's the only thing I could think about, and it could be Gendo, and in either the last 2 episodes, or Eoe it shows Yui talking to fuyutsuki about how a mother's bond is the strongest, which brings up the question as well can a male be the Eva's soul? Does the series ever state it being otherwise? Or Anno? I mean, Asuka seemed to hate her mother, so why did she become Unit 0's soul, if she possibly had a slightly more stable relationship with her father, which is debatable, especially in Eoe, when it's implied her sync ratio goes beyond it's normal limit and she feels everything done to her Eva, due to some strong connection, and some odd epiphany she has realizing her mother wasn't bad
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imprimatur13
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Re: Soooo who's Unit 0's soul?

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Postby imprimatur13 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:26 pm

This is indeed an old question, and this article deals with it in heavy detail.
https://wiki.evageeks.org/Eva-00%27s_soul

tl;dr, it's another part of Rei's soul; it's the soul of Rei I, the child killed by Ritsuko's mother. It's compatible with her because it is her. Also, you don't need to put series spoilers in spoiler tags ^_^. Everyone here has seen the series. (Rebuild movie spoilers are perhaps a different story, and best in their own subforum, but....)
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ReiIsTopTierWaifu
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Re: Soooo who's Unit 0's soul?

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Postby ReiIsTopTierWaifu » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:21 pm

View Original Postimprimatur13 wrote:This is indeed an old question, and this article deals with it in heavy detail.
https://wiki.evageeks.org/Eva-00%27s_soul

tl;dr, it's another part of Rei's soul; it's the soul of Rei I, the child killed by Ritsuko's mother. It's compatible with her because it is her. Also, you don't need to put series spoilers in spoiler tags ^_^. Everyone here has seen the series. (Rebuild movie spoilers are perhaps a different story, and best in their own subforum, but....)

Thanks for linking the wiki, that was a pretty interesting to read, and yeah the Rebuild proabably is different, I remeber watching 3.0, Shinji asking why Rei couldn't pilot Unit-13, and Kawrou mentioning that the reason Shinji had to pilot it was due to Rei having no soul, which could be interpreted to mean something else, I guess, or just directly implying that she's just a souless husk
Rei is the most beautiful cupcake in all of anime, I wish I could unwrap her and eat her, indulging in her perfect white cream


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