EVA-00's Soul

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:07 pm

Asuka's trauma was orchestrated. Whoever was in charge of that made sure Asuka discovered the body.
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Postby Sorrow » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:10 pm

But what if the Eva had gone berserk? Never activated? They can't just install a soul and say "now get the pilot ready". They'd have to run tests, make sure it works, if all is fine then, and only then, is Asuka eligible to be a pilot.

Also, the fact that Asuka came running home one day to tell her mother she had been selected seems to imply nothing at all. It's just a striking blow to Asuka's mental state; on the day she is finally given information that makes her special, makes her stand out (in spite of her mother's neglect and her father's absence), she comes home to find her mother had killed herself and apparently tried to kill Asuka too. There is nothing saying this was the same day Kyoko did the test. We're already told she was in a psychotic state after the contact experiment and as such was neglecting her real daughter in favour of a doll.

Does it matter if Lilith is welcoming Rei or Rei is welcoming Lilith? The point is they're both becoming what they're meant to. Lilith, in her entirety.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:20 pm

View Original PostEleven wrote:That's exactly what I meant. But wouldn't it make sense that they already planned Asuka to be the pilot, when the CE took place?


No, because at that time they didn't know anything about synchronization and such. Also, Kyoko was apparently trying not to get her soul stuck in the Eva, so she likely had a different approach to piloting the thing to begin with.

At least in Japan, it was some kind of standard procedure to have motherless children up one's sleeve in case a pilot was needed. So I suppose even if the CE was succesful, Asuka would have been the pilot of choice, wouldn't she?


That depends on what Kyoko was trying to accomplish. She might have intended to be the pilot herself.

Btw, I think she was told by whoever received custody of her after Kyoko went insane.


That would be her father.

But as I far as I got it, Lillith's soul being split is not canon...?


Why would you think that? We know Lilith's soul was in Rei, and we know something in Lilith welcomed her home. There's not else it could be other than a fragment of her soul, and since we know soul splitting is canon . . . :shrug:
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Postby Eleven » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:25 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:But what if the Eva had gone berserk? Never activated? They can't just install a soul and say "now get the pilot ready". They'd have to run tests, make sure it works, if all is fine then, and only then, is Asuka eligible to be a pilot.


Ok, I think this makes sense, but does not contradict my point of view. It just doesn't seem that important to me. The important info I did not have, was that the CI "officially" confirmed the splitting of Kyoko's soul.

View Original PostSorrow wrote:There is nothing saying this was the same day Kyoko did the test.


Yes. I never said that either. :wink:

EDIT: Missed the last post:

I can't quote the posting, but I think I read that some people denied that Rei's soul was split. Because of the "When Rei I is in EVA 00 who is Rei II?" argument. But I seem to have missed the point this was solved.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:38 pm

View Original PostEleven wrote:I can't quote the posting, but I think I read that some people denied that Rei's soul was split. Because of the "When Rei I is in EVA 00 who is Rei II?" argument. But I seem to have missed the point this was solved.


Well, yes and no. The argument they made, which predominated here for quite some time, was that Rei I's soul was put into Unit 00 as is, and that Rei II's soul came from somewhere else. So the argument was that Rei I's soul was not split, not that Lilith's soul was never split. That clearly had to happen for the whole "welcome home" bit to make sense. The only issue there is where the split to make Rei II occurred; was it Rei I who was split, or whatever was left in Lilith? They thought the latter, while I (and others now, I guess) think the former.
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Postby Sorrow » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:43 pm

View Original PostEleven wrote:It is just a few moments before Asuka finds her mothers corpse, that she is selected as the 2nd children. (I believe the scene in which Asuka is chosen and her mother just having died to be a hint at the whole Kyoko-in-EVA02


Maybe I'm too tired and I read more into your posts than you intended but the implication there seemed to me to be "Kyoko had died that day so her soul could be in Eva" when we already know that she had gave up (or part of) her soul, quite some time before Asuka came running home that day. The hanging scene didn't imply to me that Kyoko had finally become one with the Eva; it was just showing us why Asuka had given up being a child and depending on other people.

You then followed up with: "How do you know? I still think, that the proximity of time was supposed to tell us something."

Hence my: "There is nothing saying this was the same day Kyoko did the test."

Because the proximity of time wasn't meant to tell us anything at all, because Asuka wouldn't have been told she's the pilot the same day her mother's soul was put into the Eva. That happened quite some time before.
Last edited by Sorrow on Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Chuckman » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:53 pm

The Evas were meant to be piloted by adults. When they started killing their pilots, the stopgap solution of using children was used to make do, with constant research going on to produce pilotless drone Evas. Yui was probably the only test pilot that knew she was going to 'die'. The partial consumption of Kyoko implies that they had some kind of a safety system in place, but it didn't work as intended and it sucked out part of her soul rather than the whole thing.

They only built four Evas that were ever piloted by children. The mass production units were piloted by dummy plugs, so we can assume that was the (altered) end goal of the program.
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Postby Eleven » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:11 pm

@Bagheera: Thx, that was a good summary of your former discussion. Now I am up to date, I guess.

@Sorrow: Well, I see the misunderstanding. What I wrote before about Kyoko's soul being put into EVA after her suicide was before I was informed that the splitting of her soul is confirmed in the CI.
What I meant by "tell us something" (after I let go of my first theory) is not really that the proximity of events really has a meaning inside the story, but for the viewer of the series who does / did not have the info of the CI. Everything you wrote I believe as well. But this whole point is not really important anymore.

@Chuckman: I seem to lack a lit of background knowledge, especially when it is not in the series itself. So thank you.
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Postby Chuckman » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:54 pm

Most of what I said is my own conjecture, but I think it's the best fit for what we see and hear from the show. It fits that the child-piloted Evas were meant as a test bed to prove the technology and they saved the control apparatus, the most dangerous and difficult part, for last after they had a functioning set of prototypes.

I think 02 is the 'mass production model' to make Asuka feel special about it, but I also think she didn't really go to college, either.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:00 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Most of what I said is my own conjecture, but I think it's the best fit for what we see and hear from the show.


I don't have any quarrel with what you said here.

I think 02 is the 'mass production model' to make Asuka feel special about it, but I also think she didn't really go to college, either.


I think she got an honorary degree of some sort; it's impossible to complete a full curriculum in that timeframe, but if you're a prodigy and they give you a streamlined courseload all sorts of things are possible.

[Resulting tangent was moved to topic "Asuka and college?". All further replies on the subject go there. - Monk]
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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:07 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I don't have any quarrel with what you said here.

You should, shouldn't you? Extratextual sources indicate that both Yui and Kyoko's contact experiments were for the purpose of dummy plug research. They were trying to make the Evas be piloted by dummy plugs from the start, not adults.

Classified Information, Dummy Plug, C wrote:A copy of a personality is made in the dummy plug, but a soul cannot be copied. Why can't it be done, or how would it be done? As far as the technology branches of Seele and Nerv are concerned, it is a theme of research integral to seeking out the Path to God, and study into how to deal with the problem has spanned many years. Examples of failure include Yui and Asuka's mother. The dummy plug is something that came about in the midst of that research.

Well okay, technically what they were researching according to this is how to copy a soul, but still for the purpose of piloting the Eva with no mention of any intent of ever having actual humans pilot them, and what they wound up with at the end of that process (dummy plug) proved satisfactory to that end.
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Postby Chuckman » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:04 pm

Chuckman cares not for your paratext. If they were putting adults in the evas and not just scanning their brainwaves, it implies the adults were meant to pilot.

I doubt it would ever work anyway. Both dummy systems ended up running from a human/angel hybrid clone with the soul of a seed of life and an innate connection to the flesh of the Eva.
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Soul of Unit 00 and Rei I

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Postby Javik » Sat May 09, 2015 10:44 am

I've got a question about Unit 00's soul. We know the soul that was put in it was taken from Rei I. But was it the soul of Lilith the clone possesed or its own soul? The problem is with it being Lilith's is that we learn in episode 14 that the synch rates of Unit 00 and 01 are almost identical, and both Rei and Shinji are compatible with each other's Evas. So basically the souls must be similar which would kind of make sense if it was just Rei's soul, since we can assume as a clone of Yui they had similar souls. If it were the soul of Lilith they couldn't be that compatible.

The problem is that Ritsuko says clones are empty vessels and they don't posses their own souls. So in the end, what's the truth here?

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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat May 09, 2015 2:40 pm

Souls can be divided.
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Postby Javik » Sat May 09, 2015 7:43 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Souls can be divided.
That doesn't really answer my question though.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun May 10, 2015 2:31 am

The general understanding is that part of Lilith went into Rei I and then into EVA-00 (and then presumably back into Lilith); and then another part into Rei II

Previous related threads

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/70/EVA-00s-Soul/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/14153/Theory-Regarding-the-Soul-of-Unit-00-Quite-Complex/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/14661/Another-theory-and-analysis-of-Eva-00s-Soul/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/10710/Rei-I-Unit-00-Theory-Discussion/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/12718/Unit-00s-soul/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/5056/Eva00s-Soul-is-Not-Alonein-piloting-orami-fanwanking/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/488/Whose-soul-is-inside-of-Eva-Unit-00/?
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/1179/In-response-to-Whose-soul-is-in-Unit-00/?
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Postby thewayneiac » Sun May 10, 2015 10:55 am

Unit-01 has Yui's soul, not Rei's or Lillith's.

Most likely when Rei 1 was killed, her soul was divided between Rei 2 and Unit-00.

Rei 3's change in attitude is attributed to getting back the Unit-00 portion of the Rei soul, the part with memories of being murdered.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed May 13, 2015 7:54 am

I'm fond of the notion that Rei I's soul was put in Rei II, and Rei II subsequently attempted a CE with Unit 00 and suffered the same fate as Kyoko. I find that notion far more palatable than that of Nerv collecting and dividing souls somehow, particularly given that we're never shown any indication of their ability to do that in the show.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby thewayneiac » Wed May 13, 2015 4:23 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I'm fond of the notion that Rei I's soul was put in Rei II, and Rei II subsequently attempted a CE with Unit 00 and suffered the same fate as Kyoko. I find that notion far more palatable than that of Nerv collecting and dividing souls somehow, particularly given that we're never shown any indication of their ability to do that in the show.


But isn't it just a little too convenient that the maternal part of Kyoko's soul ended up in Unit-02? That's just the part that was needed. If Nerv didn't do it on purpose, it must have been a conscious choice by Kyoko. Besides, why should a contact experiment alone divide a soul? I find deliberate soul division a lot easier to believe that an Eva's core just deciding to vacuum up part of a soul for no particular reason. Why didn't the entire soul transfer over?
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Postby pwhodges » Wed May 13, 2015 4:57 pm

The mechanisms of soul handling in Eva are a fine area for handwaving. Attempting to make sense of it all in a way that doesn't send you crazy is pretty much a lost cause IMO.
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