EVA-00's Soul

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:35 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:Wouldn't Rei's (Lilith's) soul being incomplete be an issue regarding third impact? I don't really have anything to contribute here, but I would have imagined that her soul being incomplete would not bode well for the major plot of the film.


What makes you think she's incomplete? She's mostly reformed by the beginning of EoE, and she reforms completely when she merges with Lilith. There's no plot hole there.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Sorrow » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:39 pm

A little after writing my other post a few things occurred to me, but I didn't want to double post. I'm not usually a member of forums, but I'm aware it's frowned upon most everywhere.


Asuka's mother is proof that the soul can in fact be split to create two living beings. She remained as herself and the "mother" aspect of her soul was what makes Eva 02 a living being. So that much we know. My issue, however, wasn't that Lilith's soul was split, it was that: surely splitting it would cause complications when it came time for instrumentality and for her to take the mantle?

I've realised now, however, that this could be a non-issue: When Rei II destroyed herself, she destroyed her Eva along with her (Rei I) this means that when Gendo has Rei III created, there is no reason why the entire soul can't be re-assembled inside her new body. Considering there being no more need to create another Unit 00--there in fact isn't another--bodes very well for this idea.

Considering that it ties up the loose end of the fragmented soul when Rei initiates human instrumentality I'll explain why I now think it was in fact "Rei I" (or simply part of Lilith's soul) inside Unit 00.

1) When the angel invades Rei--I can't remember which angel or which episode--she sees a version of herself and she says something along the lines of "is this the me that lives inside the Eva?", despite it turning out to be the angel, it makes it clear that Rei is aware there is a "her" inside the Eva.

2) When Shinji sees a version of Rei inside the Eva during the synch tests, he notes it is Rei's likeness, but not actually Rei (the Rei he knows).

3) When we see Eva 00 go out of control in the flashback, she tries to attack either Gendo, Akagi or Rei herself. However, Akagi makes a note that implies it was trying to get her of all people. I didn't really understand this until it occurred to me that having a Rei inside Eva 00 doesn't change third impact and the soul can in fact be split. The reason why it is interesting is because Rei I would have a thing against Akagi's mother, it's implied Eva 00 was trying to get someone and that someone being the only person and/or the daughter of the only person whom Rei I has a reason to despise is highly likely.

If however it is for Gendo or Rei II the Eva is aiming, they can be explained as such: Gendo imprisoned the soul residing in Eva 00, hence the hatred, and Rei II may be a target for hate for having replaced Rei I as "Rei" while "she" is imprisoned as the Eva. I don't buy into either of these and firmly consider the Akagi point to be likely, but they're reasons, I suppose.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:01 pm

There are a few possibilities for the soul in Unit 00, but none of them (IMO) suggest that Rei I was put in the Eva directly:

1. The simplest is that Nerv (somehow) split Rei I's soul and put part of it in Rei II and part of it in Unit 00. This seems klunky to me, since it requires capabilities that Nerv is not demonstrated to have, but it's consistent with what's onscreen.

2. Nerv (somehow) recovers Rei I's soul and puts it in Rei II. At some later point Rei II attempts a CE with Unit 00, and suffers the same fate as Kyoko. But in Rei II's case the childlike part of her is removed, leaving a person with schizoid symptoms behind. This is my preferred theory. I've mentioned it here a few times but it hasn't gotten much comment, either in support or against.

2a. As above, but instead of the CE there is, in fact, no soul in Unit 00 after all. Rei in fact has Kaworu's ability to control Evas without souls, but doesn't know this and thus subconsciously creates an eidolon of herself to serve as a "dummy soul". I don't take this one seriously for a moment, even though I came up with it, but it does fit with what we see in the show and doesn't require any handwaving about Nerv collecting and splitting souls.

3. Rei I's soul automatically returned to Lilith (or Lilith recovered her soul of her own accord, something we know she can do), and Nerv repeated the procedure to create Rei I to create Rei II. The soul in Unit 00 was created in like fashion, or via the CE as described above. This is the explanation most consistent with the events in the show, and it requires absolutely nothing new be added to the mix -- Nerv does nothing they haven't done before, Lilith does nothing she hasn't done before, etc. But it's somewhat dull, and it doesn't explain why Rei II is the way she is, so I don't care for it.

Sticking Rei I's soul directly into Unit 00 doesn't make much sense for a number of reasons: the soul in Unit 00 doesn't really look like Rei I, and it doesn't really act like Rei I. More importantly, it doesn't pass the "why the hell would Nerv do that?" test. Putting the soul of a murdered child in a weapon of mass destruction doesn't make a lot of sense, and "lol Nerv" doesn't satisfy as an explanation here. But the most important issue is: if Rei I's soul is in Unit 00, what the heck's in Rei II? Yes, we know souls can be split, but come on, man, it doesn't make any sense. It would mean Rei I was walking around with a split soul, and she doesn't seem to have been all that impaired the way Rei II and Kyoko were.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Sorrow » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:26 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:1. The simplest is that Nerv (somehow) split Rei I's soul and put part of it in Rei II and part of it in Unit 00. This seems klunky to me, since it requires capabilities that Nerv is not demonstrated to have, but it's consistent with what's onscreen.


But they did split Kyoko's soul right? Even if not NERV, someone did. It is possible.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:2. Nerv (somehow) recovers Rei I's soul and puts it in Rei II. At some later point Rei II attempts a CE with Unit 00, and suffers the same fate as Kyoko. But in Rei II's case the childlike part of her is removed, leaving a person with schizoid symptoms behind. This is my preferred theory. I've mentioned it here a few times but it hasn't gotten much comment, either in support or against.


I actually really like this idea, it's not drastically different from her soul being partially removed and then placed elsewhere; it's the same out-come: Part of Lilith's soul belongs to the Eva and the other part to Rei.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:the soul in Unit 00 doesn't really look like Rei I, and it doesn't really act like Rei I.


I think if we go by what Shinji sees during the test, then it is certainly Rei's likeness.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:More importantly, it doesn't pass the "why the hell would Nerv do that?" test. Putting the soul of a murdered child in a weapon of mass destruction doesn't make a lot of sense, and "lol Nerv" doesn't satisfy as an explanation here.


I think it was simply because Rei doesn't have a mother to connect with and Eva 01 (Yui) was already designated to Shinji from the start, the only other option was for them to try and use a part of the same soul to connect with itself.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:But the most important issue is: if Rei I's soul is in Unit 00, what the heck's in Rei II? Yes, we know souls can be split, but come on, man, it doesn't make any sense. It would mean Rei I was walking around with a split soul, and she doesn't seem to have been all that impaired the way Rei II and Kyoko were.


I don't think Rei I was split, that was the whole soul inside her. Only when Eva 00 is complete is the need for being split there. Probably through a contact experiment like you say. I like to think it's the reverse situation of Kyoko, now I think about it. The Rei inside the Eva is the unstable Rei (perhaps due to her violent death at a young age for simply speaking honestly), evidenced by her lashing out and trying to attack someone, whilst the Rei inside.. Rei... is the better part - the more balanced. Directly contrasting Kyoko; who's love and motherly nature was in the Eva and her jealous, violent unstable, self was what was left in the human body.

Or perhaps Lilith's--and by extension the angels--souls are subject to more abuse than a human soul, hence Rei not appearing like a psychotic murderer, a la Kyoko. Though I subscribe to it being a parallel of Kyoko's situation.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:47 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:But they did split Kyoko's soul right? Even if not NERV, someone did. It is possible.


No, they didn't. That was an accident, the result of her CE.

I actually really like this idea, it's not drastically different from her soul being partially removed and then placed elsewhere; it's the same out-come: Part of Lilith's soul belongs to the Eva and the other part to Rei.


No, it wasn't removed, it was split, again by accident. The idea here is that Nerv doesn't have that capability.

I think if we go by what Shinji sees during the test, then it is certainly Rei's likeness.


It's a distorted version of her, not Rei I. Neither Kyoko (who wasn't even fully there) nor Yui look different than they did in real life, so there's no reason Rei I would. The logical conclusion is that this is a fragment or a construct of some sort, not Rei I's complete soul.

I think it was simply because Rei doesn't have a mother to connect with and Eva 01 (Yui) was already designated to Shinji from the start, the only other option was for them to try and use a part of the same soul to connect with itself.


Right, but if they're gonna do that putting the crazy part in a WMD is silly. You put the sane part there so you can deal with the crazy part outside and make her well enough to pilot.

I don't think Rei I was split, that was the whole soul inside her.


No, part is still in Lilith. But (presumably) a small part. Rei I had as much as they ever got, though, and the same amount Rei III had.

Only when Eva 00 is complete is the need for being split there. Probably through a contact experiment like you say. I like to think it's the reverse situation of Kyoko, now I think about it. The Rei inside the Eva is the unstable Rei (perhaps due to her violent death at a young age for simply speaking honestly), evidenced by her lashing out and trying to attack someone, whilst the Rei inside.. Rei... is the better part - the more balanced. Directly contrasting Kyoko; who's love and motherly nature was in the Eva and her jealous, violent unstable, self was what was left in the human body.


Sure.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Sorrow » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:02 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, they didn't. That was an accident, the result of her CE.


but of the 3 contact experiments we can speak of, only one ended up with the entire subject becoming part of the Eva - the first. Perhaps after the loss of Yui, they found a way to prevent the entirety of the soul being absorbed.



View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, it wasn't removed, it was split, again by accident. The idea here is that Nerv doesn't have that capability.


Yes, I was agreeing with you:

[your explanation is] not drastically different from her soul being partially removed and then placed elsewhere; it's the same out-come [as your explanation].


Id est: it's not the act of purposely splitting the soul, but that is the out-come.


View Original PostBagheera wrote:Right, but if they're gonna do that putting the crazy part in a WMD is silly. You put the sane part there so you can deal with the crazy part outside and make her well enough to pilot.


Just because it seems like a monumentally stupid thing to do, doesn't mean they didn't do it.


View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, part is still in Lilith. But (presumably) a small part. Rei I had as much as they ever got, though, and the same amount Rei III had.


So now they can take portions of a soul from someone/thing?
At any rate, it seems to me that the giant we call Lilith is just a body until Rei "returns" to it.


EDIT:- I missed one:

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's a distorted version of her, not Rei I. Neither Kyoko (who wasn't even fully there) nor Yui look different than they did in real life, so there's no reason Rei I would. The logical conclusion is that this is a fragment or a construct of some sort, not Rei I's complete soul.


Right, because Rei I's entire soul would be Lilith's/Rei II's, prior to the contact experiment. Rei I doesn't have a separated soul, only the Eva and Rei II (after the contact experiment presumably) are fragmented. Rei III is then the re-construction of said soul after both (Rei II/Eva 00) are destroyed via self destruction.

The idea is that part of Lilith's, now fragmented, soul represents Rei I. The damaged, un-predictable child with a vendetta against Akagi.
Last edited by Sorrow on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:10 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:but of the 3 contact experiments we can speak of, only one ended up with the entire subject becoming part of the Eva - the first. Perhaps after the loss of Yui, they found a way to prevent the entirety of the soul being absorbed.


Yes, but I don't think it was deliberate. They probably wanted to find a way to create a "dummy soul" within the Eva, a reflection of the eventual Dummy System, and it backfired.

The reason it matters is because, if it's deliberate, it implies Nerv both knows what it's doing and has the means to make it so. But if it's accidental there are a lot of possible scenarios and their tech level and expertise don't need to be nearly as advanced.

Just because it seems like a monumentally stupid thing to do, doesn't mean they didn't do it.


But relying on their stupidity to make the argument work is a non-starter, see? If there's some reason they might do it even though it's stupid that could work, but without that sort of motivation it amounts to a non-answer.

So now they can take portions of a soul from someone/thing?


No, that happened by accident -- they were trying to get Yui back, she told them to bugger off and Lilith got caught in the crossfire. Lilith's soul was shredded just like Kyoko's was, albeit from the other end. The reason I favor the explanation I do is because it requires no competence on Nerv's part -- they're just throwing shit at the walls and hoping something sticks, same as everywhere else in the show. I really dig that approach to their actions because it makes a lot of the silly stuff we see in the show make some amount of sense.

At any rate, it seems to me that the giant we call Lilith is just a body until Rei "returns" to it.


Largely, yes, but not an uninhabited one.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Sorrow » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:27 pm

Just so you know: I edited my last post because I missed something out - you'll see where it is. Just in case you wish to reply to it.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Yes, but I don't think it was deliberate. They probably wanted to find a way to create a "dummy soul" within the Eva, a reflection of the eventual Dummy System, and it backfired.

The reason it matters is because, if it's deliberate, it implies Nerv both knows what it's doing and has the means to make it so. But if it's accidental there are a lot of possible scenarios and their tech level and expertise don't need to be nearly as advanced.


But they have had experience and are shown to learn. They're not entirely displayed as this super team of scientists who get it all right first try. Take the episode where Shinji becomes LCL, Akagi implies something similar happened before (Yui?) but they couldn't return. So she uses that knowledge in her attempt to retrieve Shinji. Which proves fruitless when it becomes apparent it is up to Shinji to leave on his own accord--implying that Yui never returned because she never wanted to - that ties into our previous discussion in the other thread somewhat.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:But relying on their stupidity to make the argument work is a non-starter, see? If there's some reason they might do it even though it's stupid that could work, but without that sort of motivation it amounts to a non-answer.


I wasn't relying on their stupidity, though. It appears to us to be a stupid idea, but from their perspective they were just trying to separate Rei's soul, via contact experiment, to make an Eva compatible with her. It may be an accident that the "damaged" part of Rei ended up in the killing machine. After all, it is the proto-type.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:they're just throwing shit at the walls and hoping something sticks, same as everywhere else in the show. I really dig that approach to their actions because it makes a lot of the silly stuff we see in the show make some amount of sense.


I think we largely agree (on the bulk of the subject) but seem to be getting our wires crossed in our explanations?
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:33 pm

My main point is that Nerv never intended to split Rei's soul. If they set up the CE it was in the hope that they would improve upon Yui's and Kyoko's work, but it backfired on them just like it did Kyoko. I think they were largely flailing blindly in the dark, as the bit in episode 20 amply demonstrates.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Sorrow » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:46 pm

So what were they trying to accomplish by initiating a contact experiment with Rei (II)?
Did they have no intention of having a soul in Eva 00 or were they intending to put Rei in there, in her entirety? In your eyes, that is.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:46 pm

OK. Firstly, the omnislashing is completely out of control in this thread and needs to stop for the sake of the discussion. Please, control your urges

Sorrow's earlier post above essentially and succinctly a) outlines how the theory of "soul-divisibility" explains how Rei-I is the soul of Eva-00 and b) lists the major pieces of Tier-1 in-show evidence for this fact.

There is almost nothing to add. But since I was going to add it anyway, I'll just directly quote the number one smoking gun scene referenced above for the visually oriented.

Rei-I in Eva-00: The Smoking Gun  SPOILER: Show

[wkimg]23 120a.jpg[/wkimg]
Rei:
Who's there?
Me?

[wkimg]23 121.jpg[/wkimg]

The me inside the Eva.

[wkimg]23 122b.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg]23 123.jpg[/wkimg]
No, I can sense that there's someone other than me.
Who are you?

[wkimg]23 126.jpg[/wkimg]
An Angel? The person that we call an Angel?

[wkimg]23 127.jpg[/wkimg]
Rei Voice:
Won't you become one with me?

[wkimg]23 128.jpg[/wkimg]
Rei:
No. I am me. I am not you.



If anyone has any other reasonable explanation for what Rei means by "The me inside the Eva?" here, now's the time to give it. Other than that, this reference alone is the smoking gun that proves that there are two shooters in the grassy knoll that is Rei piloting Eva-00. Or, well, it's the best piece of evidence for the theory.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:06 pm

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:Sorrow's earlier post above essentially and succinctly a) outlines how the theory of "soul-divisibility" explains how Rei-I is the soul of Eva-00 and b) lists the major pieces of Tier-1 in-show evidence for this fact.


But if the soul was divided it follows that Rei I is not the soul of Unit 00. A part of that soul is, but that's not the same thing. Sorrow is not saying Rei I was stuck in Unit 00, and neither am I: we're saying the soul was likely split in a CE, which is a very different matter.

If anyone has any other reasonable explanation for what Rei means by "The me inside the Eva?" here, now's the time to give it.


Your error lies in concluding that "the me inside the Eva" is a smoking gun, when it isn't. All that tells us is that some part of Lilith is in the Eva (or something Rei recognizes as a part of herself), not that that part is Rei I specifically. Given that we've seen no less than four iterations of Lilith it seems patently absurd to assume that any given reference must refer to one specific iteration. The argument here is not that the soul is not Lilith, but rather that the soul is not the complete soul of Rei I. And that argument seems to be pretty solid.

Sorrow: It is my belief that they were trying to manufacture an eidolon, i.e. a ghost, i.e. a "Dummy Soul", within the Eva. The idea being to create an operating system for the Eva without having to sacrifice a pilot in the process.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Sorrow » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:22 pm

If you feel that was their intention (the "dummy soul") then does it not follow that it's entirely possible SEELE accomplished this in their mass produced Evas (obviously using Kaworu's soul and then Kaworu's body for the "dummy pilots" as opposed to Rei)?

Me and (if I recall right) Chuckman tried to imply as much in our previous thread in regards to why Yui may have become LCL but not the mass produced Evas. It is fair to say that SEELE have their own means of doing things--proof of which is the Eva series--so if you find I likely that NERV attempted this (resulting in our current discussion), will you not concede that SEELE may very well have accomplished this?

I see this is probably off topic--though it is a natural progression of the conversation--so I'll want to read your answer and leave it at that. I won't reply unless it's about the Rei soul.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:26 pm

While it is possible that an entirely different piece of Lilith powers Eva-00, shouldn't we, by Occam's razor, try to explain this using an existing piece we already know about?

It occurs to me that our different conceptions of soul divisibility may be leading to our talking across one another. To clarify my position: I take the view that Rei-I, Rei-II, Rei-III, Eva-00, Lilith on the cross and possibly the Dummy Tank Rei's and even Eva-01 all contain some portions of Lilith's original (undivided) soul, and are also mixes or recycling of each others soul. In fact my current conception of souls in NGE(as yet unelaborated on) is that they are literally akin to a fluid(or electric charge) which can be stored, separated, decanted, etc inside cores( and probably PWM, and possibly LCL), with Nerv being able to do this with some degree of success.

In short, my position is that after Rei-I "died", the soul (fluid/charge) in her body --or part thereof-- was placed in Eva-00's core, while the rest, or possibly an entirely new portion of Lilith was placed in Rei-II.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:29 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:If you feel that was their intention (the "dummy soul") then does it not follow that it's entirely possible SEELE accomplished this in their mass produced Evas (obviously using Kaworu's soul and then Kaworu's body for the "dummy pilots" as opposed to Rei)?


I think it's unlikely. If anything, they managed to replicate Kaworu's ability to control his flesh so long as a soul is not present. I admit this is possible. But I think the "dummy soul" approach was a failure at every turn.

Me and (if I recall right) Chuckman tried to imply as much in our previous thread in regards to why Yui may have become LCL but not the mass produced Evas. It is fair to say that SEELE have their own means of doing things--proof of which is the Eva series--so if you find I likely that NERV attempted this (resulting in our current discussion), will you not concede that SEELE may very well have accomplished this?


See above, but as I noted previously this is irrelevant since the process of reducing a being to LCL has nothing to do with the soul -- it's all about the anti-ATF. Seeds and their clones are immune to the effect (this is demonstrated onscreen) but other organisms are not.

I see this is probably off topic--though it is a natural progression of the conversation--so I'll want to read your answer and leave it at that. I won't reply unless it's about the Rei soul.


I addressed the matter in the appropriate topic anyway, so you can deal with it there.

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:While it is possible that an entirely different piece of Lilith powers Eva-00, shouldn't we, by Occam's razor, try to explain this using an existing piece we already know about?


Not when it demands we handwave another soul, i.e. Rei II, no. Occam's Razor demands division in this case, nothing less.

In short, my position is that after Rei-I "died", the soul (fluid/charge) in her body --or part thereof-- was placed in Eva-00's core, while the rest, or possibly an entirely new portion of Lilith was placed in Rei-II.


I do not believe a new portion is reasonable, but if you're willing to allow for division of Rei I's soul we're essentially in agreement. Note that that is not the standard argument given on the T&A webpage or by SSD above.
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Postby Eleven » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:34 pm

So far, I tend to believe the Rei I - is - somehow - in EVA00. But reading this whole thread led to some questions on my side, which haven't been adressed here, yet (or at least not in a manner that I understood :wink: ).

1) Kyoko and EVA 02: Is it stated within the show that Kyokos soul was split into a mother and a psychotic part? Because I always thought, that she just somehow went insane over the contact with the EVA and that Kyokos whole soul was placed in EVA 02 after her suicide. It is just a few moments before Asuka finds her mothers corpse, that she is selected as the 2nd children. (I believe the scene in which Asuka is chosen and her mother just having died to be a hint at the whole Kyoko-in-EVA02-thing, which is confirmed in EoE, when Asuka herself recognizes her mother's soul.) Because if only the motherly part of Kyoko being inside the EVA was enough to sync, why wasn't Asuka selected as soon as the CE was over? Why wait?
This may seem OT at first, but if my thoughts are right, it means that Kyoko's souls wasn't split, which would take away one of your number-one arguments. (If I'm wrong, it'd be still interesting, why Asuka became pilot after her mother's death.)

2) If (as some of you say) Lillith's whole soul is transferred into Rei (regardless which one), then who is saying "Welcome Home", when Rei merges with Lillith's body?

3) Why doesn't the CE between Lillith's soul (as Rei) and an Adam derived body (EVA00) cause the TI? Does it have to be Lillith's body?
I apologize for any grammar mistakes, as I am not a native speaker.

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:43 pm

View Original PostEleven wrote:1) Kyoko and EVA 02: Is it stated within the show that Kyokos soul was split into a mother and a psychotic part? Because I always thought, that she just somehow went insane over the contact with the EVA and that Kyokos whole soul was placed in EVA 02 after her suicide. It is just a few moments before Asuka finds her mothers corpse, that she is selected as the 2nd children. (I believe the scene in which Asuka is chosen and her mother just having died to be a hint at the whole Kyoko-in-EVA02-thing, which is confirmed in EoE, when Asuka herself recognizes her mother's soul.) Because if only the motherly part of Kyoko being inside the EVA was enough to sync, why wasn't Asuka selected as soon as the CE was over? Why wait?


Because she was 4 years old at the time and they had to figure out how to let her do it. That presumably took a bit of time.

This may seem OT at first, but if my thoughts are right, it means that Kyoko's souls wasn't split, which would take away one of your number-one arguments. (If I'm wrong, it'd be still interesting, why Asuka became pilot after her mother's death.)


The split of Kyoko's soul was confirmed in the Classified Information. Some here contend that the remainder of Kyoko's soul was salvaged after her death and (somehow) put into Unit 02, but there's really no reason for Nerv to do that (again, why put a crazy person into a WMD?). They already knew Asuka could pilot at that point, and Unit 02's behavior (the lack of oddities or berserker fits as seen in Units 00 and 01) is more consistent with a partial soul.

2) If (as some of you say) Lillith's whole soul is transferred into Rei (regardless which one), then who is saying "Welcome Home", when Rei merges with Lillith's body?


The whole soul wasn't transferred, it was another split.

3) Why doesn't the CE between Lillith's soul (as Rei) and an Adam derived body (EVA00) cause the TI? Does it have to be Lillith's body?


Because two souls and an original Seed of Life body are needed for an Impact event. Contact between a soul and a clone body isn't enough to make it happen; if it was Armisael would have started an Impact when it merged with Unit 00 (though that does presume that a partial soul could start an Impact to begin with, which is unknown). Likewise, Kaworu would have been able to initiate an Impact just by hopping into an MPE.
Last edited by Bagheera on Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:43 pm

View Original PostEleven wrote:1) Kyoko and EVA 02: Is it stated within the show that Kyokos soul was split into a mother and a psychotic part?
No, that's left to the NGE2 Classified Information. One of the few bits that could not simply be deduced from the show, I'd say.
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Postby Sorrow » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:45 pm

View Original PostEleven wrote:1) Kyoko and EVA 02: Is it stated within the show that Kyokos soul was split into a mother and a psychotic part? Because I always thought, that she just somehow went insane over the contact with the EVA and that Kyokos whole soul was placed in EVA 02 after her suicide. It is just a few moments before Asuka finds her mothers corpse, that she is selected as the 2nd children. (I believe the scene in which Asuka is chosen and her mother just having died to be a hint at the whole Kyoko-in-EVA02-thing, which is confirmed in EoE, when Asuka herself recognizes her mother's soul.) Because if only the motherly part of Kyoko being inside the EVA was enough to sync, why wasn't Asuka selected as soon as the CE was over? Why wait?
This may seem OT at first, but if my thoughts are right, it means that Kyoko's souls wasn't split, which would take away one of your number-one arguments. (If I'm wrong, it'd be still interesting, why Asuka became pilot after her mother's death.)


She was selected before her mother died. If Kyoko had died as a result of the contact experiment directly then she wouldn't have been at her home, able to kill herself. If you mean "why was Asuka not chosen the moment Kyoko gave up the mother part of her soul?" then it's probably as simple as waiting to make sure everything works as it should before letting Asuka know. I'd have been more confused as to why someone so young was told directly and not through a parent, so I don't think when she found out holds any real weight.

View Original PostEleven wrote:2) If (as some of you say) Lillith's whole soul is transferred into Rei (regardless which one), then who is saying "Welcome Home", when Rei merges with Lillith's body?


I'd have thought it was a welcome home for Lilith's soul, therefore Rei is being welcomed home.

View Original PostEleven wrote:3) Why doesn't the CE between Lillith's soul (as Rei) and an Adam derived body (EVA00) cause the TI? Does it have to be Lillith's body?


Because the Eva doesn't possess Adam's soul and Rei doesn't possess Lilith's body. Both seed's bodies and souls appear to be needed to initiate third impact. Even if only both bodies are needed or both souls, the combination of Rei being in an Eva establishes neither. Lilith's soul + Adam's body = nothing.
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Postby Eleven » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:57 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:She was selected before her mother died.


How do you know? I still think, that the proximity of time was supposed to tell us something.

View Original PostSorrow wrote:If you mean "why was Asuka not chosen the moment Kyoko gave up the mother part of her soul?" then it's probably as simple as waiting to make sure everything works as it should before letting Asuka know.


That's exactly what I meant. But wouldn't it make sense that they already planned Asuka to be the pilot, when the CE took place? At least in Japan, it was some kind of standard procedure to have motherless children up one's sleeve in case a pilot was needed. So I suppose even if the CE was succesful, Asuka would have been the pilot of choice, wouldn't she?

Btw, I think she was told by whoever received custody of her after Kyoko went insane.

I'd have thought it was a welcome home for Lilith's soul, therefore Rei is being welcomed home.


Yes, but who welcomes Rei? If her soul is split, than it's clearly the remaining part of Lillith's soul, welcoming herself.
But as I far as I got it, Lillith's soul being split is not canon...?

As for my 3rd question: Thank you, now I know.
I apologize for any grammar mistakes, as I am not a native speaker.


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