[LAEM] PG-13 or R?

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Postby snowballreborn » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:04 am

Anything involving pimps usually gets an R rating ;)
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Postby xtr00kvltcorex » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:20 am

the R rating usually gives more freedom, if they were to make an LAEM correctly, then the R rating would let it retain more closeness to the series IMO.
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Postby Agentomega » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:37 am

Indeed. :emogendo:
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Postby Timstuff » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:44 pm

Rebuild 1.0 is PG-13. The only thing that you'd really lose with a PG-13 would be some nipple shots and blood. As for EoE, and wether or not something that crazy could be done in a PG-13, chance are they're going to revise the ending anyway so I don't see what the conflict is.

The show originally aired during a kids' TV block, so whether or not it was accurately placed there, Evangelion is meant to be appealing towards teens as well as adults, so a PG-13 rating for LAEM should be a no-brainer.
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Postby snowballreborn » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:05 pm

I think Evangelion 1.0 as pg-13 was okay but the nudity shots of Rei (which were basically fanservice which is treated much more different by the MPAA than say symbolical nudity or comedic nudity (such as that brief shot of Bart Simpson's penis in the Simpson's movie)) were kind of pushing it for a pg-13 release (however animation is usually looked upon much kinder by the MPAA). Personally I was expecting an R in America and a 14a in Canada (Canada's film board is less harsh on films (we got the films Borat and Role Models as 14a despite sex and nudity and we have Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas as a PG rating)).

I think if EOE live action could do an R rating instead of nc-17 because it is obvious that the child actors can't be naked during the film. I'm not sure what the restrictions on an actor of age playing a character not of age would be though. The masturbation scene could be still in tact however as long as Asuka isn't nude but I have a huge feeling that that scene would be cut for an american audience.

EOE in general is nc-17 without a doubt in my mind. There is excessive symbolic and titilating nudity, there is tons of blood and death and killing. Ironically, the parts where the EVA units are being mutilated is one of the most disturbing scenes in the film. The only reasons I could see that EOE wouldn't achieve an nc-17 rating is that it is animated and that there isn't rape.

A normal LAEM adapting the first few episodes of the series could get a PG-13 or soft R without ruining the mood of the series as long as it is made with adult audiences in mind and not just seem like a film aiming to attract the harry potter or transformers fanbase.
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Postby Timstuff » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:18 pm

Again, I can't stress enough how highly I doubt that any of the LAEM movies (assuming it's a trilogy) will be R-rated. The show was pretty much PG-13 except for some of the gore and nudity, which can easily be changed to accomodate the film's rating. EoE is definitely R-rated, but I highly doubt that we'll be getting a shot-for-shot adaptation of EoE with LAEM anyway so that seems like a non-issue. I highly doubt they'd show Shinji jacking off to Asuka or have a 30 minute long mind-probing sequence during third impact/instrumentality, and at least reduce the amount of vagina imagery, and they can always give the MP Evas black blood to keep the MPAA happy.

Given that a direct remake of EoE would probably flop anyway (even in Japan EoE had a fairly "meh" reception), it shouldn't come as a surprise if the third movie of the trilogy is made more "PG-13-friendly" than EoE amidst the other changes.
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Postby Guyver Spawn » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:32 pm

Taken is a good example of a Dark PG-13 and I feel the movie should have been Rated R. Who knows how it will turn it out if it PG-13.
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Postby snowballreborn » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:39 pm

Too bad stanley kubrick isn't still alive to make this film.

I find it hard to see an evangelion ending that doesn't ruin the integrity of the series that isn't EoE and isn't a total Mindf*ck. Rebuild might just provide that ending though :)

I think the reason many people don't want it to be pg13 is because of the possible fandom building akin to the harry potter, twilight, and evangelion films. What makes it even worse is that most of the American audiences wouldn't understand the true integrity and origins of the series. They'd go in expecting micheal bayformers all over again and accuse it of being a total rip off of the transformers despite having any knowledge of it or even seeing it. Many people would also be turned off of the film or not even recognize the film's relationship to anime. Some of the biggest fans of Borat I know have never heard of Da Ali G show and hardly anybody who has seen Fight Club knows that it was based off of a book. This is what I worry would come out of a pg13 evangelion.
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Postby Timstuff » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:34 pm

I find it hard to believe that people will expect Evangelion to be like Transformers, unless something really screwy happens in the marketing department. If anything, I think people would draw more comparisons with Godzilla, since Evangelion is much more similar to it than Transformers. And personally, I always thought this idea of wanting a movie to "lock out" the possibility of new fans is a very stupid aspect of fandumb. Star Trek fans had the same attitude about the new Star Trek film, but it still turned out great and was a huge success. I've always felt like it's a very selfish attitude to be like "if they weren't into it before the movie, I don't want them to like it."
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:55 pm

Timstuff wrote:I've always felt like it's a very selfish attitude to be like "if they weren't into it before the movie, I don't want them to like it."

Not very smart, money-wise either. And I thought genuine fans wanted others to get into it. I mean, I can understand those who just hate the series all together not seeing it no matter what. But I would think one would want to open Evangelion up to more people, without destroying the heart of it to the point where it's unrecognizable.

As for a rating, the series was "TV-14" from what I remember. That would make it a PG-13 for the MPAA (the rating for the Rebuild movie). But that was without the director's cuts and EoE thrown into the mix, which was rated the equivalent of the MPAA's NC-17 in some foreign countries.

It'd probably be like Star Wars, where the last movie would get the biggest MPAA rating of the series.
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Postby scarmullet » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:19 am

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Not very smart, money-wise either. And I thought genuine fans wanted others to get into it. I mean, I can understand those who just hate the series all together not seeing it no matter what. But I would think one would want to open Evangelion up to more people, without destroying the heart of it to the point where it's unrecognizable.

As for a rating, the series was "TV-14" from what I remember. That would make it a PG-13 for the MPAA (the rating for the Rebuild movie). But that was without the director's cuts and EoE thrown into the mix, which was rated the equivalent of the MPAA's NC-17 in some foreign countries.

It'd probably be like Star Wars, where the last movie would get the biggest MPAA rating of the series.


Remember the end of Episode 20? The sounds of Misato and Kaji doing the ol in-out, in-out. Even if its sounds, odds are The MPAA would be weary about giving it just a PG-13 rating.

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Postby Timstuff » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:37 am

Again though, you're assuming the goal will be a nearly shot-for-shot reproduction of the anime. If the writers, directors, etc. have the intention of a PG-13 rating from before the first letter of the script is written, then it would be very easy to change things to accommodate the rating better. I mean, they're making an adaptation, not just re-releasing the show and EoE with an MPAA rating. If for example, Misato and Kaji's sex scene is inappropriate for a PG-13, then they'll just change it, simple as that. Heck, they'd probably change most of the stuff anyway simply because the director would get bored just re-creating the anime shot-for-shot.
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Postby snowballreborn » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:24 am

Kaji/Misato's the old in-out in-out scene is appropriate for a canadian 14a. I just watched revolutionary road which is canadian 14a and featured the old in-out in-out to a much higher extent than episode 20. Right Right.

Fandom is like that because knowledgeable people hate ignorant people. Most people who watch a movie that is a sequel/remake/whatever before watching any of the source material usually have a different (and occasionally incorrect) perceptions of the film. People get really annoyed when they have to hear shit about how much they enjoyed a single bit of material that they claim is the best, mainly because it was the first bit of the franchise that they experienced.

For a sort of bad example: say the first of the star wars films a person watched was episode I or II, the films that have the least positive reception of the series. The person is very likely to try to defend those films because of his great experience with them and may go to the extent that it pisses off other star wars fans.

Another example: I used to be a HUGE fan of Naruto (gay/shitty/whatever you say, I know.). But once the dub came out everybody suddenly knew what it was that I loved and praised. Because of the shitty dub and the way it was directed towards kids and the view of anime by most of north american youth these days there was a huge backlash against me. I had to hide my fandom because anybody who did love Naruto, being a new member to the series or not was immediately declared childish or a f****t. The new people to the series who knew me as a fan were constantly challenging me to stupid trivia that I knew the answers to and the they wouldn't stop bombarding me with their belief that they knew more about the series. They have only watched the dub and refused to watch any of those pesky subtitles. The last straw was when I saw my 3 year old neighbour start screaming about Naruto one day and proclaiming basically how he was the ultimate narutard.

Now in terms of advertising, look at great films like Adventureland and Watchmen. I can't go a single day without somebody bitching about how Adventureland wasn't like Superbad, automatically making it bad. The few people who enjoyed the film are smart individuals and were able to see it as the smart and lovable film that it was intended to be.

Before Watchmen came out everybody was talking about how it was a cheap rip off of Batman. Their perceptions of the film were sort of correct but incredibly immature.
The film was advertised almost as being an action film and when the film did come out there were so many people I know complaining about how little action there was and doctor manhattan's big blue penis. They didn't get a bit of the message of the film and claimed it immediately as incredibly long and stupid and "gay". Then they all bitched about how what happened to Rorschach, the only character they could relate to as funny as that sounds, was incredibly "gay." Then I told them about how "gay" it would be if that didn't happen. They didn't comprehend that.

Until people's views on comic books, movies, and anime change, a live action film of Evangelion will probably not work. This is happening however, with films like star trek and watchmen and the dark knight. Unfortunately, fandom will have to take a hit for the better of itself and mankind. The night is darkest before the dawn, and I assure you, the dawn will come.
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Postby Timstuff » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:26 am

Your argument seems kind of unfocused, but I'll try to address it to the best of my ability:

First of all, Watchmen wasn't a terribly big hit, and unfortunately I don't think that there was any way to make one out of it without totally butchering it. It was pretty friggin' accurate to the source material, which is unfortunately probably why it didn't do as well as more mainstream superhero movies do. But what really drives me nuts, is how I have to listen to so many fans of the graphic novel whine and moan about how the movie is a pathetic shadow of the graphic novel and whatnot. If anything, Watchmen proved that no matter how accurate you try to make an adaptation, the hardcore fandumb is still going to find something to whine about incessantly.

As for Naruto... I never had any interest in it at all, but I suppose the closest thing I can relate to that would be when Wii came out, and suddenly there were a bunch of people who sucked at video games claiming that they were "gamers." I found that very annoying for a while, but eventually I got over it and decided that there were more important things to focus my energy on than complaining about how Wii was ruining the game industry. So if you loved Naruto before it came to the West, then I suppose I can understand that you'd be pissed off now most of the fans are little kids who only watch the dubbed version (which I will take your word for about sucking), but that's life. Clearly someone somewhere made a very smart business move in decided to bring Naruto over here and marketing it to kids, because it's raking in a ton of dough.

Going back to the whole Wii thing though, what eventually allowed me to let it go was the fact that I had to accept that this idea that being a "gamer" was like being in a special club was essentially a farce, and it was pointless. I still think that Wii is dumbing down the industry in some ways, but on the other hand, it's also acting as also acting as bridge for people who weren't playing games to see what all the fuss is about. I mean really, what is bad about more people playing games? The sooner I realized this, the happier I was. Games "hip" now, and it does not take away the fact that I've got a wealth of experience with them going back nearly 20 years. The idea that the Wii was diluting my video game fandom was stupid and childish, which is why I stopped fussing about it.

Likewise, I think that fans of things that get turned into movies could stand to be a whole lot more accepting of new fans who get brought in by the film. With Evangelion, for example, if there's a rush of teenagers and 20-somethings all going "Oh, Evangelion is so awesome!" who never saw the anime, my first reaction would not be "GRRR! What a bunch of idiots, they don't know jack about Evangelion!" My reaction would be "oh cool, now everyone knows what all the fuss is about, and I get to play guru!" If anything, expanded fandom makes me feel like my fandom is more valuable, rather than less so. If someone has a question about Evangelion, I'll still be the guy to go to, just like how if someone has a question about video games I'm still the guy to go to.

Also, your comparison with Star Wars is worthy of a mention, as well. I've met people who have only seen the prequels and liked them, but rather than go "OH NOZ MY FANDOM IS RUINED!", I go "oh boy, if they thought that a POS like Phantom Menace was good, wait till I show 'em Empire Strikes Back!" I do not see new fans as being fungal spores, but as seeds. A tree isn't any less beautiful just because it's part of a forest, and likewise I am not any less of a fan of something just because I'm surrounded by newbies. Obviously my opinion would be different if LAEM sucks, but I'm an pragmatic optimist so I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.
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Postby snowballreborn » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:29 am

I totally agree with you and your seed theory.

But a problem about audiences these days is that they are starting to judge films that aren't rated R as childish.

Here is a rant that relates to my point but also will probably contradict it or have no relation at all to it:

Drag Me to Hell. Drag Me to Hell is a film directed by Sam Raimi, director of the Evil Dead and the spiderman franchise. Drag Me to Hell is hilarious because it is intended to be campy and it is also amazingly well acted and has an incredibly interesting story. However, the film was not received the same way the critics saw it by the audience. They didn't get most of the tongue in cheek humor found in the film and many point blank called it a piece of crap. Drag Me to Hell is PG-13 but didn't attract the audience found in the evil dead films, which is a cult classic and would probably have dragged tons of fans to the movie if it weren't for their judgment of the film. The movie was a success but in a very minor extent to what it should have been (It payed the bills and made a bit of profit (not being to big of a deal since the film wasn't on that big of a budget), it was also a lot bigger international success than it was in the NOrth American market).

Despite being a great film, how was it that a different horror film such as Haunting in connecticut, a total piece of shit, became a box office hit that attracted "an audience." The problem about the movie industry is that they feel that films must be more accessible, specifically to younger audiences, causing a PG-13. They do this to make more money plain and clear.

Now lets see, here is the part that makes connecticut a larger box office success and Drag Me to Hell a minor success. Haunting is a film that is not by a "name" director, was heavier advertised, and featured elements that a teenager who prides themself as being a lover of "horror films." Drag Me to Hell was directed by a director who has a large cult fanbase. Did you notice however that more trailers for the film said from the director of Spider-man instead of by the director of Evil Dead. also, the trailer featured much camp which many people wouldn't have gotten if they had known that it was supposed to be comedic. Now most of the fans of Evil Dead must be older than 20 by now and they see one of their largest idols, who has been directing films for general audiences, finally return to horror and release a pg-13 film. Is it going to be great and on par with evil dead? Bullshit. Minor success in the united states.

Overall however Drag Me to Hell is a success moneywise internationally, but I'm trying to generalize with american audiences so bare with me.

Now here comes an evangelion film that is Pg-13. Most of Evangelion's core audience is between the ages of 15 and 30 in North America, above the age of 13 and will have some sort of access to R rated films be it legal or illegal. People who thoroughly enjoy Sam Raimi films and anime are what we call nerds. Now nerds are also critics. Critics are smart people who have already realized that films that are pg-13 that are supposed to be aimed towards a larger audience is usually a piece of shit, like connecticut. Thus the core audience will be lost. In many instances however, like possibly evangelion and drag me to hell which are or could be Pg-13, the nerd intelligence on their opinion of pg-13 films is too great for their own good.

Hollywood needs to stop thinking about just the money and think about the fans, however in the case of watchmen, a very accurate and great film adaption, the money problem occurred because of an R rating and there was still a fan lash out (although minor in both accounts in comparison to many other instances). Fans/nerds will never be happy or satisfied and that's just the truth no matter what. Despite viewing truth more accurately, fans and nerds are only human and will always have a reason to bitch about something.

If an evangelion film does occur, no doubt its advertising will be similar to watchmen (especially if it is R rated). It will have the "based on the most critically acclaimed anime of all time" slogan in every single commercial and trailer.

I think whether Evangelion becomes a success among the audiences who would see it (not necessarily critics and fans) is if it has proper advertising. If it shown as being deep and symbolic but still filled with action, similar to the matrix films.

It is impossible for everyone to like a film however and fans will backlash against anything no matter what the quality. There is backlash agains star trek 11 and there is backlash even against the triumph that is rebuild of evangelion.

If evangelion can do a smart and dark pg-13 like the dark knight, it may become a success by word of mouth and it could still be a good film as well.

I think most of the success of an evangelion film relies on how cowboy bebop and robotech do. Speed Racer flopped, causing many anime films to be withdrawn from the market. Akira could have been the film that made the difference but it got cancelled.

Evangelion could work Pg-13 but an R is likely more favorable by the fans, yet less favorable by hollywood and general audiences who have not seen evangelion.

Evangelion, being such a big, influential, and incredible work is really hard to create properly without complete creative control. It may not even be worthy of live action period.

Evangelion is one of those works that will be deemed unfilmable and will stay dormant until a zack snyder comes out of the blue and nabs it. It will happen some day, but now doesn't seem right. But it shouldn't wait too long in order to avoid what happened to speed racer. but speed racer was supposed to reinvigorate the interest in speed racer to a younger audience? anyways. like that, it is very complicated and all up in teh air. Only time will.

Well I've obviously gone off topic and contradicted myself a billion times and I applaud whoever read that piece of bullcrap i just toiled away at. My statistics are without a doubt completely wrong and I probably didn't completely explain the statistics in the way i mean or my true purpose. I'll just state that my opinion is I don't really care what it is rated as long as it doesn't ruin the creative integrity of the original series or the director filming it. It's 3 o' clock in the bloody morning and I need sleep. Sorry for muddling around.
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Postby Timstuff » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:19 am

Personally, I think that the whole "R-rated movies are better than PG-13 movies" is a terribly overrated argument. At least as many of my favorite movies are rated PG-13 as R, and the reason why is that some movies simply do not need an R-rating. My personal evaluation of Evangelion is that an R-rating is unnecessary, and that a PG-13 rating is a better fit for the content that's there. And seeing as Rebuild 1.0 is PG-13, it seems like Gainax and the MPAA agree.

I don't agree with the idea that Evangelion will not be taken more seriously if it does not have an R-rating. The Dark Knight and the Lord of the Rings trilogy, some of the most acclaimed films ever, were rated PG-13. Some people would argue that they would have been better with an R-rating, but again, I do not think it would have been necessary. What would TDK have to gain from an R-rating? Some bloody Joker kills that turn him into a slasher villain? A few F-bombs in the dialogue? And what about Lord of the Rings? They already showed pretty everything they wanted to within the rating the movie had, pretty much the only thing to gain from an R-rating would be lots of 300-style gore shots, and frankly I think that that it would have become a distraction.

I think it's a very closed-minded to think that R-rated movies are generally better than PG-13 movies, because it's simply not true. Rating has very little to do with a movie's success or acclaim, because you can just as easily have an immature and stupid R-rated film as you can a PG-13 one, just like there are at least as many mature and well thought out PG-13 movies as there are R-rated ones. I hardly know anyone in real life who looks at a movie and says "PG-13? Pssssh." The 18-35 demographic buys into PG-13 movies just as much as the 13-18 demo, and it's because most people do not see a rating as being a reflection of quality (because it's NOT).

With that in mind, I do not believe that Evangelion would be better with an R-rating. In terms of tone and content, Evangelion (with the exception of a few scenes and EoE) has always felt like an analogue of PG-13 to me, and it was a pretty easy assumption to make that LAEM would be PG-13. Some changes will have to be made, obviously, but not nearly as many as would have to be made to satisfy people expecting a hard-R if it's R-rated. They'd have to put sex and gore in parts where they don't belong, or else people expecting lots of sex and violence will be disappointed. Seeing as Evangelion 1.0 is PG-13, I don't see how they could squeeze an R-rating out of the first LAEM movie, and there's no way they'd do a trilogy where it starts as PG-13 and ends as R-- it's simply unheard of. If the choice is between a hard PG-13 Evangelion or an R-rated one that could have easily been PG-13 had they removed a gore shot and a nipple shot, then I'd so go with the PG-13 one. Again, I'm being pragmatic, but really I don't think that the content that would be cut is worth getting an R-rating for when it could so easily work as a PG-13 franchise.

Again, this is all just my opinion, but I do think that the argument against PG-13 movies, and particularly why Evangelion should be R-rated rather than PG-13 it, is very overwrought. If Evangelion is R-rated that pretty much only means that it's shooting itself in the foot, because not only would it cut out a huge chunk of its original demographic (teenagers) and merchandising opportunities, but it will also mean a small budget, and does not guarantee that the movie will be faithful to the original. As for EoE, it seems pretty obvious to me that they'll end up changing a lot of Evangelion's ending anyway, so there's no reason why they can't keep things within the PG-13 threshold with they're at it. PG-13 allows for plenty of violence and adult themes for Evangelion's story to be faithfully depicted. A PG-13 rating just plain makes sense.
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Postby xtr00kvltcorex » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:28 pm

^ epicsauce.
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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:43 pm

well, for the most part I agree with Timstuff, PG-13 today is not what it was back it when it started in 1984, it was a "hard PG" originally, but it's evolved to a "soft R" IMO

admittedly however, the ratings system has been rather inconsistent

there was a time when films like the 1968 version of Romeo and Juliet (best Shakespeare film adaptation IMO btw), 2001, Planet of the Apes, The Andromeda Strain, the first Star Trek movie, were rated G when they first came out, and of course there are too many PG-rated films to list from the time the MPAA was established to around 1990 that would easily be rated at least PG-13 today

but now that I think about it, I think you can do all of Evangelion with nothing higher than a PG-13 rating, sure a li'l bit of the more wildly graphic stuff in EoE would be out but I think you shoot it right today and keep nearly all of the content, including most of the nudity
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Postby Timstuff » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:45 pm

xtr00kvltcorex wrote:^ epicsauce.


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Postby Otakon 08 Ikari » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:20 pm

If the R rating will keep little kids out and keep more blood in the movie then make it R.
Dr. Trans Old Fashioned Peppermint Dickables

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