Metroid series

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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:32 pm

View Original PostDataprime wrote:Prime Trilogy is out today on Wii U in the Americas

Bought it.

I already own the hardcopy and this version doesn't even have any upgrades but I DON'T CARE.

Even if I never get any utility out of it, at least I sent a message or something.
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Postby NemZ » Fri May 08, 2015 10:57 am

Just finished up a week or so of 2d Metroid nostalgia, playing through Zero Mission, Fusion and Super. Skipped return, but I found a fangame remake of it that i might check out. Thoughts on the matter, in no particular order:

1) Super's controls are so damn janky compared to the GBA titles that it isn't even funny. Select button to cycle through ammo types is just so annoying, especially with grapple and x-ray scope in the mix. Grappling is fun but pointless as soon as space jump shows up... too bad they didn't find more things to do with it, like pulling boxes or levers around maybe. I don't understand why the scope is even a thing though, and in retrospect I wish I'd just skipped the stupid thing to make the cycling chain shorter.

2) Super is actually much more linear that I remember, at least if you aren't going out of your way to sequence break with glitches and bomb jumping. Up until you get the ice beam it even basically locks you into a series of rooms along the way with one-way passages. Even after that there's still essentially just one right way to go, though it opens up for more side exploration.

3) Wall jumping is FAR easier to do in Super than in later titles. I mean it's still awkward as heck compared to something like megaman x, but at least you can do it up a single wall there and the window of opportunity is far more lenient. Why would they change that but still intenionally create sequence breaking opportunities?

4) I'm really glad they gave up on the separate 'run' button as well and just made speed booster automatic. That was also rather annoying to have to hold down in Super in areas that needed jumping and shooting while using the boost.

5) Zero mission is just stupid with all the shinesparking puzzles. It's the only one I didn't both to 100% because I can't be bothered with that much tedious nonense. How many times do I have to demonstrate that i know how to use slopes to hold a charge before you just get on with it, game? And the one in brinstar where you have to ballspark twice through different otherwise unconnected rooms, stopping in the middle both to recharge and to kill an enemy... fuck that noise.

6) The 'zero suit' portion of the game was a terrible idea, merchandizing notwithstanding. Stealth gameplay really doesn't suit this series at all, especially when it comes at the cost of locking you out of collecting anything you may have missed earlier. Also, why is the final boss a robot Ridley that is far easier than the original?

7) Missile use in Fusion is truely inspired. Making super missiles just an upgrade of regular ones rather than a different thing is a HUGE improvement, as is just holding one button to switch between ammo/no ammo weapon types in both ball and walking forms. Even making the missiles your ice weapon was an inspired choice, as it gives more reason to use them while also keeping the minor enemies from suddenly taking two shots to clear out.

8) Tying door colors to 'security rooms' rather that weapon types was lame though. Making weapon upgrades also exploration keys made them feel much more holistic to the design. I'm convinced this change is what necessitated a lot of the overtly forced linearity in the overal game design.

And some further ponderings:

A) Why do we need different ammo for power bombs, missiles and super missiles? Why not a single ammo pool that takes some ammount from the total depending on what non-standard thing you're using? Maybe even things that aren't weapons that use it as well... some sort of active defense shield maybe, or an insta-charge upgrade to speed booster? Mid-air explosive directional morph ball launching as an upgrade to bomb jumping?

B) Since Samus is now physically part-metroid herself after Fusion, I'd really like a morph ball upgrade that just lets you actually turn into a small metriod yourself, dealing contact damage that heals you and being able to fly freely. sort of the ultimate upgrade to space jump + screw attack.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sun May 17, 2015 2:34 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:
A) Why do we need different ammo for power bombs, missiles and super missiles? Why not a single ammo pool that takes some ammount from the total depending on what non-standard thing you're using? Maybe even things that aren't weapons that use it as well... some sort of active defense shield maybe, or an insta-charge upgrade to speed booster? Mid-air explosive directional morph ball launching as an upgrade to bomb jumping?


Bit of a late reply, but the different ammo system is probably to restrict usage of Power Bombs and Super Missiles, which are massively powerful but which you normally save up because you rarely have a lot of ammo for them and ammo recharge stations are rare in most of the games (especially in Super Metroid). By the end-game you will invariably have far more normal Missiles than Super Missiles; if all weapons drew from the same source and you had as many normal Missiles as Super Missiles and Power Bombs, then people would just go around spamming Super Missiles and Power Bombs to clear rooms rather than using the beam weapons and normal Missiles. It also helps to regulate usage of those weapons, since you might need them for certain doors and puzzles.

The Metroid Prime Hunters DS game did try to make all your non-Power Beam weapons draw from the same ammo source, but that only worked because each weapon had its own pros and cons (they were basically Prime's elemental weapons with an ammo cost attached); in other games the weapons with separate ammo counters are much more powerful than your normal gear.
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Postby NemZ » Sun May 17, 2015 11:18 am

Well yeah, but I assumed stronger things would take more ammo from the common pool per shot so that balances out. Even better if the games gives you reasons to still use the lesser forms for different jobs... say regular missiles eventually gain a limited target-seeking ability so spamming a few will clear out several minor annoyances as long as there aren't any walls in the way, while super missiles stay single-fire but can be remote guided around such obstacles?

Ideally there also needs to be a something between 'free' bombs and power bombs. Maybe something that lingers a bit with a larger radius to hit multiple times over a short duration, but you can only drop one at a time and it doesn't go off until you tell it to? And honestly, why don't you get any beam-type upgrades for your regular bombs? Seems like a big missed opportunity to me.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sun May 17, 2015 7:18 pm

^That's pretty much what the 3D Metroid Prime games did by giving Missiles homing capabilities when locked-on, and each Super Missile fired had to be charged first and cost 5 regular Missiles; even with these restrictions I felt this system allowed me to be much more liberal in using the Super Missiles than I would be in the 2D games although this was really more of a godsend in this situation because the 3D games often had lots of annoying enemies (especially the damn Chozo Ghosts) and the Super Missiles were actually the cheapest and most practical high-damage option before you find the Plasma Beam. On the other hand, I'm not sure how well that would translate to the 2D games in which a homing feature isn't really necessary and most enemies can be avoided or killed with the Ice Beam/Missiles combo or the Screw Attack.

I suppose the reason why Bombs never got any upgrades is that you're not really supposed to use them to fight; they're primarily used for puzzle purposes or to kill miniature enemies in said puzzles; unless you want to clear a room with a Power Bomb you'll actually mostly be using it to blast open weak walls. If they added additional upgrades for Bombs they'd have to have some purpose in puzzles as well as combat. To be fair, Nintendo did once try to introduce one other weapon for the Morph Ball in the form of Metroid Prime 3: Corruption's Hyper Ball, but it soon became infamous as a 'the weapon that's only ever used in one room' because, once again, all current Morph Ball weapons aside from the Power Bomb are drastically underpowered compared to anything Samus can pull off while standing.
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Postby NemZ » Tue May 19, 2015 1:04 pm

@Shinoyami:

Screw attack is just ridiculously overpowered, that's a big part of the problem. It really needs to be just about the last powerup you find and as such shouldn't be considered when balancing other weapons since it by default makes everything but metroids and bosses pointless.

I see the seeking/guided powerup for missiles/super missiles as a single item, with the real point being the guided option to hit otherwise unreachable switches but the homing just a nice add-on that says don't worry about aiming normal missiles anymore. Also against particularly fast or cloaked enemies it could make normal missiles a better option than super missiles.

Bombs need an upgrade precisely because they currently aren't worth using most of the time. They need to hit at least as hard as a missile to justify how awkward they are to use for starters, and improved versions with things like remote detonation could be used for timing puzzles or setting traps or maybe use a more concussive blast to shove blocks around. There should be something that uses ammo between free bombs and power bombs, making them comparable to the beam/missile/super missile progression.

Another idea to make all these things relevant is to give them different 'element' properties. Fusion and prime 3 already moved ice to missiles rather than beams, but why not take that further and add different special properties like fire, shock and acid to other weapon types rather Prime 1 and 2's style of switching between different incompatible beams.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Tue May 19, 2015 7:16 pm

^Screw Attack is normally one of the late-game powerups; at the very least I don't remember ever unlocking it until around 3/4ths into the game.

I do agree that Bombs could use a real kick in the tail in the next installment though; it would be interesting to have elemental Bombs that had different applications. They would have to fit it together with the elemental Beams, though, unless they use the Beam-stacking system which does appear in some game such as Corruption and Fusion. I would like to see the Nova Beam from Corruption return, which would allow for acid, Ice or Plasma bombs to take the place of the other traditional Beams.
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Postby NemZ » Tue May 19, 2015 9:39 pm

Depends. I was recently screwing around in the first metroid and managed to get screw attack before wave beam, varia, or killing either boss. After that shooting was just something you did to doors.

Beam stacking is the best, and all other powerups should stack as well. Samus should never have to do more than shoot, charge, toggle ammo use and/or roll up in a ball to get to anything in her arsenal. Maybe add a context-sensitive button for grabbing ledges, grappling things or whatever else and another to toggle view modes, but that's it. Keep it simple.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:09 pm

I read on Twitter the other day something about Reggie leaking Super Metroid 2 news, but I guess nothing came out of that during Nintendo's E3 talks today, so fans are salty?
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Postby Rosenakahara » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:14 pm

NOTHING HAPPENED.
Metroid is still being waited on for a new game and thats literally all that happened at e3, also some game called federation force was released.
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Postby TehDonutKing » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:39 pm

Shitty-looking spin-off.

BUT
Shitty looking spin-off is labelled as Metroid Prime, meaning Prime is canon again, which implies that Other M is canon discontinuity. Also, remember Link's Crossbow Training being released aside Twilight Princess? This could mean Metroid 5 is around the corner, since FUSION'S ENDING IS A HUGE FUCKING CLIFFHANGER AND THEY NEVER RESOLVED IT
/hj

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Postby Rosenakahara » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:43 pm

If prime is canon again i would like a new prime game to prove it, made by retro ofc.
i love both prime and sidescroller styles of metroid games but i have a little more affinity towards the prime styles so i hope that continues.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:21 pm

^Don't get too excited, the game is apparently set in 'the Metroid Prime universe'. So rather than bringing Prime back into canon, it's pushing it further away. Furthermore, Samus has little or no role in the game so far (you play as 4 faceless goons) so they've graduated from screwing over Samus in her own game to slapping her franchise title on games while shoving her into the background.
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Postby NemZ » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:43 am

Nintendo, what are you doing? Must you shovel out this tie-in bullshit while denying us a proper sequel?
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:20 pm

^Apparently the next Metroid game will have to wait until the Nintendo NX comes out.

It seems with every Metroid-related announcement, they shove Samus a little further into the grave...
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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:28 pm

Samus missed out on the N64 and maybe that was for the best. Considering the Wii U's inevitable place in Nintendo's history maybe skipping out on it isn't so bad either.
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Postby TehDonutKing » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:31 pm

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:^Apparently the next Metroid game will have to wait until the Nintendo NX comes out.

It seems with every Metroid-related announcement, they shove Samus a little further into the grave...

Bad news: no Wii U Metroid title. Good news: More Prime-Samus in the future.
/hj

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:27 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:Samus missed out on the N64 and maybe that was for the best. Considering the Wii U's inevitable place in Nintendo's history maybe skipping out on it isn't so bad either.


I can't help but feel I wasted a ton of money on the Wii U. I should have bought a PS4 instead.

At least they haven't completely forgotten about Samus, although I think we can forget about any sequels to Fusion for now. Which might be for the best, because making a sequel to Fusion would mean the inevitable return of the Adam Computer, aka Samus's now-immortal bondage master.
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Postby JimmyWolk » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:16 pm

Yeah, this was probably the biggest bummer this E3, next to no Zelda U*.
Even if this turns out to be a great game (though it would probably still not be for me, since I don't care much for this mission-based stuff), they pretty much sent it out to die without announcing it next to a proper new installment. The overblown negative backlash up to something like a petition to cancel it almost makes me feel bad, since it seems like it's quite a passion project, what with the idea being there for 10 years and all, and a talented studio behind it.

However, that is admittedly also the thing that makes me worried about it: They're not treating this like a side project, this is indeed the next big Metroid (Prime) game in the series. There was this interview at Kotaku, where the interviewer repeatedly tried to go into the issue of this not exactly being a proper Metroid title that people have been waiting for, and the answers go in the direction of "Well, yeah, you're not playing Samus, but it still controls the same, so it's totally a legit Metroid".
Between something like that and the likes of Other M, I can't help but wonder what they think people are looking for in a Metroid game. Surely they must be aware that there's even a genre that is generally called Metroidvania? -_-;

*Yeah, I know they said before that Zelda wouldn't be at E3, but I had hoped that a) that would only mean on the showfloor and still have at least a trailer, seeing how it'd be odd not to have anything at all when they've already showed it twice (welp), or b) if they indeed not show it, at least have a big other reveal to replace it, like... say... Metroid... (welp^2)

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Postby Dima » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:34 pm

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:Samus missed out on the N64 and maybe that was for the best. Considering the Wii U's inevitable place in Nintendo's history maybe skipping out on it isn't so bad either.


Seems like Metroid won't be the only franchise that will skip WiiU. There is no proper Animal Crossing game and i wouldn't count the F2P game like one. Then again Animal Crossing always was fit for a portable machine. Unless i am mistaken the Wii one did good sales but not like the DS one.

No Pokemon game. Again Pokemon isn't big on home consoles but N64 got Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2. GC got 2 Pokemon RPGs. Wii got also a Pokemon game that i don't remember nothing about it.

And there is the Zelda game. Got announced last year with a 2015 release window in mind and went MIA since then. Now they are saying it will be released in 2016 but it is strange that it was missing form this E3 (not even a new screenshot). I won't be surprised if it will turn like the Twillight Princess and get a cross release for WiiU and the next platform.

And to return to Metroid again. I don't think many people were expecting a new one on WiiU especially with Retro working on Donkey. Most of them were expecting a new Metroid game on 3DS which would make much more sense for different reasons like smaller development time, cheaper, more sales etc.

Then of course we are talking about Nintendo. They didn't give 3DS a proper new 3D Zelda game. They missed completely this train even though they got on another one with the remakes. Still i think a new one would have sold more.

And let's not forget the rumors that Nintendo canceled a Metroid game for 3DS. There was also a rumor that the team that worked on Luigi's Mansion 2 was working on Metroid 3DS and they stopped.

Last thing about Metroid N64. From what i read this one mostly had development problems and that's why it never got released. At least this one existed in some form at one point. Did a WiiU one ever existed?
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